259 | Costume As Character: What (& What Not) To Include in Your Screenplay (ft. Courtney Hoffman)

Costume designer turned writer/director Courtney Hoffman has worked on some truly iconic films (THE HATEFUL EIGHT, BABY DRIVER) and beloved indies (CAPTAIN FANTASTIC, THE BOY NEXT DOOR). These experiences have profoundly shaped how she approaches storytelling, especially now that she’s writing and directing projects starring the likes of Laura Dern and Kaitlyn Dever.

In this episode, Courtney shares what writers should (and shouldn’t) include in their scripts when it comes to wardrobe, how costume can deepen character, and how different departments will interpret your work if it gets greenlit for production.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve, and today we are joined by the talented, amazing Courtney Hoffman. Courtney is a costume designer turned writer and director whose career spans some of the most iconic films and filmmakers of our time. Courtney built her career in costume design on films like Baby Driver, The Hateful Eight, and Captain Fantastic, working with auteurs, including Quentin Tarantino, Edgar Wright, Terrence Malick, and Tim Burton.

She made her directorial debut with The Good Time Girls, a western short, starring Laura Dern and continued her passion for female led genre storytelling with the Sisters of Scott County, a 1970s trucker movie starring Kaitlyn Dever, selected by Netflix out of 1,200 projects for proof of concept funding, which is super fun.

Can't wait to talk about that. She recently directed the season finale of American Horror Stories and has sold original writing projects to Max, Paramount, Sony, Peacock, FX, and Freeform, including Kentucky Blaze, a mother daughter stoner comedy with Tish and Miley Cyrus, and Drama Majors, a mental health mystery inspired by her NYU Tish Roots. 

As one of the rare costume designer, writer, director hybrids, Courtney brings a powerful and holistic perspective to storytelling. So today we'll dive into a part of filmmaking that often doesn't, you know, it gets overlooked, especially if you're a writer. I'm not sure that you're thinking about costume design, but you should.

I think it's just gonna be a helpful insight for all of us and how it shapes character tone and emotion. And you know, how that's all really starting on the page. So, of course, Courtney, so now I'm writing and I'm going back and looking at, did I say what they wear? So I, now, of course, have tons of questions for you. So welcome to the show. 

Courtney: Well, thank you so much. I'm a huge fan of the show, so it's a dream to be on it. 

Meg: Wonderful, wonderful. So, um, I'm really excited to dive into this, but of course, as you know, as some, as a listener, that we start with Adventures in Screenwriting. AKA how was our week? Lorien normally goes first. She couldn't be here today, so I'm like, well, who should go first? Courtney, do you wanna go first? Do you want me to go first? 

Courtney: Oh, I'll go first. I am visiting my in-laws in pastoral Connecticut and getting the, you know, the roots of Arthur Miller and the great writers that have come before me and written on these porches.

So I'm just doing my best to get back into a rewrite of something. Uh, actually my trucker movie, The Sisters of Scott County, I just did a proof of concept of it. So I'm revisiting a script I've been writing for seven years. Um, but trying to breathe some new life into it with a, a sort of sense of, uh, getting it packaged with Kaitlyn and everyone in the fall.

Um, so, you know, that's been fun. And then this morning I pitched on an open directing assignment by sort of giving my writers pitch. Um, so, you know, good balance of quiet and, uh, and, and action. 

Meg: Yeah, you're in that, you're still working, you're not on vacation clearly. Did you go there to write? 

Courtney: Um, I came here with my wife to spend some time with my mother-in-law. Um, but it's such an idyllic place to write that I always sort of save my prize writing for the porch. I mean a porch. I mean, imagine a breeze. A breeze and a porch. 

Meg: Um, my week is a little similar in that rewriting. I had something happen that's never happened to me before, which is writing a script with my husband, uh, Joe, and we, my partner now, and we thought we were done and it was that kind of thing. Which, this is probably the mistake, honestly, where you're like, I wanna go on vacation and have it turned in. I don't wanna think about it. I just want it finished. because if it's not finished, I'm gonna think about it the whole time. I'm not gonna, so let's just turn it in. But let's quick send it out to our five friends to get notes, which is like so dumb, because of course they're gonna have notes and which, you know, in hindsight, dumb.

But what's, what's specifically hard about it is, or challenging is, so we gave it to five people. One of whom being our manager of course, and two people loved it. Like literally the emails were just, we love it. Send it in. It's ready. One person said, I have a crush on your main character. This is so fun, blah, blah blah.

And you're like, okay, yeah, we can turn this in and go on vacation. Our manager was like, I like it. I think that the Netflix is gonna like it. I think it's delivering, but I think you have to work on the first act to get us more emotionally connected to the characters quicker. So part of me was like, nah, I don't want that note. because then I have to not do it on turn it in. But okay, maybe, but let's hear what the other two people say. And the other two people hated it. 

Courtney: So whatcha gonna do? 

Meg: So yeah. I mean when we pushed them to say something good, they did. But that never counts in my writer brain because I'm like, why did I have to push you to say something nice? So we got, “We love it. I have a crush on your main character too. I really don't like your main character. I don't like him at all. I don't think the plot is clever. I don't feel anything for these characters.” And you're like, oh my God. So we've got this broad, really broad – 

Courtney: One person's crushing and one person's detesting. That is, that's a predicament. 

Meg: So you're like, well, okay. Um, you know, what is it? You always take out the lowest and highest scores, right? So you gotta take out one, we don't like it. And you get one left and you gotta take out one. We love it. And you still have, so, but you still have one. I don't like it, one I love it, and one in the middle. So I guess we're coming down to going in the middle. 

Courtney: Yeah. 

Meg: Which is, it is what it is. We do need to get feedback, but we could work on, I think could it be that if we work on the emotion more upfront, you will be engaged and then so things you don't like, you would actually like because I'm, I'm hoping it's one of those, one of those rewrites where if you can get people deeper engaged upfront. Then you don't actually have to rewrite the whole thing. So I don't understand. 

Courtney: So basically your manager wins, it sounds like. 

Meg: I think my manager's gonna win. Yeah. Um, but it's so interesting emotionally because listen, everything isn't everybody's cup of tea either, right?

Like you could, we could have given it to readers who don't really like rompy fun. Things right, that they want a lot of trauma or like they're, they, they gravitate towards darker, you know, things. I dunno if that's true, but that's what my brain is telling me. Um, but it's still, it's kind of, um, now when you go back to the script, like the sirens on in my head, do you know what I mean?

Like, I can't, I don't know how to turn the siren off now. Because now I'm like, shit and I really have to turn the siren off because two other people and including my manager, really liked it. Yeah. So just turn the siren off. But I'm having trouble turning the siren off, I guess is my week is all week. I'm writing through the siren in my head.

Yeah. Um, which it's just not as fun. Mm. It's not as fun to write, uh, worried, you know what I mean? It's not as fun to write. Absolutely. It's not good enough. It's no. Gotta make it better. And you know, I just like, uh, so I might take one of the friends. Who didn't like it out to lunch? Maybe that's masochistic, but I need more information.

Courtney: Yeah, you need more information before the vacation. 

Meg: I know. Well, I took the vacation because I literally was leaving, so I was like, well, okay, let's just go. We'll, just, and it was really good though because when you put something aside for that time, yes, you really do have more objective to come back and look at it and say, okay, this isn't gonna be so painful.

You can just be like, okay, let's be surgical. What could we do? We could do this, we could do this. And we just started pitching stuff we could do. I spent, you know, but it's normal rewrite. I spent an entire day writing something that then I threw out. because I loved writing it. It was like the warm bath. But then I was like, this totally changes the tone because again, they're looking for trauma. So I start writing the trauma and I'm like, but that's not what this movie is like. This movie isn't. So it's this, you get into these rewrites where you're swinging. You know what I mean? Like, oh, well this person told me. You know, it's not, you know, there's no kind of backstory trauma, so let's write trauma.

Well, no, that's not this movie and nobody wants that in this movie. So I'm just trying to find the perfect feeling and, uh, you don't wanna do flashbacks. So I did write all the flashbacks trying to find the perfect drop of, you know, and then I went to see Superman and you really just see all the efficiency.

Mm-hmm. Right? Of even things that you think are just, you're going by and it's just a fun thing. By the end is really important to the plot. And just the efficiency of it is pretty amazing. And, um, so that's where I am. I'm a little grumbly. Yeah, a little grumbly about it. I am. Sounds like your rewrites is going much better.

Courtney: No, it's not. I mean, I have the same thing except my notes are from my wife and she gives the best notes and they're notes that nobody else gave me, and I'm so far in it. And so like I was laughing thinking about you guys being writing partners because uh, there is no one that gives me better feedback and there is no one I am more defensive with.

So I can't imagine like it's sort of a dream and a nightmare. But there's also so much validity to her point of view. because she cares. She's also a filmmaker and she always says like, I love this because it's not a movie I would ever write and direct. Right. But like, because of that I care more. Um Right, right, right.

So I, there are some sirens and she's made me blow up my act one that had been like the only thing that nobody had notes on, so, oh my god. Right. I tell you, the sirens are going. They're just trying to like, you know, let the wind breeze them away. 

Meg: Right. Lorien and I are always like, I, I'll be honest, when we've got the first two people saying they loved it, my husband was like, this is great, this is amazing.

And I'm like, okay, I'm waiting for the boot. Okay. There's a Lorien and I always joke, there's a giant boot that's gonna fall out of the sky. It's gonna kick us right in the head. And then we did, and then it happened. 

Courtney: But, well, and I'm here to tell you what the boot looks like because it's costume design.

Meg: That's right. Which we're gonna talk about right now.

Okay. Let's get into that. Okay. So. I don't know that we need to define costume design for people. I think people realize you're designing the costumes, but is there anything that you would, in terms of that definition that people get wrong or that for you is important for us to know as context like as we start?

Courtney: Um, you know, I think just in how it relates and all sort of originates in a script, I think of costume design as like character forensics. Um, and you know, I think that the joy of being given a script that really lights up and I will talk about costume design, but this goes for every department creative department head, which is when you read something, um, finding the sort of seeds that you're gathering to like plant your own garden.

Um, and you know, yes it is about clothes, but it is much more about backstory and what's in their pockets and like what would they have in a handbag and like all the things that you know, no one will ever see or think about. Um, I think that's how you app a good costume designer approaches the work. 

Meg: So when you say seeds, tell me what you're, look, so you're reading the script. What are like, what is a seed to you? 

Courtney: I mean, I think a seed is a very specific world that this takes place in. A seed is, um, a character who I'm not necessarily looking almost every time a writer and bless them, but like I joke, the Writers Guild Awards and the Costume Designers Guild Awards have vastly different co clothing.

Like, I'm much more excited by one version, one person's take, uh, no offense to writers on what people wear, but I, I do find, like when I read someone writing up, they're wearing this exact thing. I'm like, Uhhuh, okay, next. Um, I'm much more interested in how I'm, how a character is being described. Where do we meet them and where are they going?

Because that gives me a visual challenge to do where I'm not just figuring out like. What someone wears when we meet them. I wanna know what their journey is aesthetically through a film. Um, 

Meg: And so you're looking at their whole arc in a way? 

Courtney: Yes. A whole character arc. Um, you know, and, and also the world around them and the people that they're interacting with, because the most important thing is defining them amidst those other people.

Mm-hmm. So if you think about a movie like Baby Driver, Baby is always in black and white, but every other character has a very vibrant color that they wear the whole time and that, you know, was a choice. So things like that. 

Meg: And you're talking to the, to the actor about this, obviously they're, they're participating with you in terms of, I see it this way, or are you bringing to the actor and the director?

Where do the actor and director get involved as you're, let's just do the process. Yes. You get a script, you're looking for your seeds. And you're like, oh, here's, here's the emotional thematic, I guess. Right? 

Courtney: Here's emotionally what's happening. Here's the arc, tone, here's the style. Then, um, and then you have a preliminary meeting, which is like, am I right for this job?

And this is something everyone you know, should do because you want a creative fit. Even if you like someone's body of work, that doesn't mean they're the right fit for that job. I can think of a, a bunch of films that I interviewed for and when I saw them come out, I was like, oh, I would never have done that.

That was not my right job. So even if you like and respect someone, you wanna see how they engage with your material. So that's sort of a first meeting and most of the time that should come with images. So I'm presenting sort of my initial take on a world visually and saying like, you, you know, I was thinking she would wear, she's always carrying a bunch of stuff, so like, she has a bunch of pockets and everywhere she carries something, you know, like just throwing different ideas at the wall. Um, and then, uh, from there you start to actually shop or create the costumes via costumes, illustrations, if it's, you know, a sci-fi or a big build.

Um, and, you know, you're constantly in dialogue with a director. Um, I would say most of the films that I've worked on have been auteur films, so unfortunately, I don't know what happens to the writer if it was a writer too. So I, I hope that they get to hear something, but I, I don't know that it's gonna be as active.

Meg: Yeah, they do. 

Courtney: But the writer director is very involved. And someone like, uh, Quentin Tarantino, like he says that the moment an actor tries on their costume is the moment they become a character. So if you were the inventor of that character, why wouldn't you be there to watch your child take its first steps?

Um, and, uh, I guess like Robert De Niro or something said in Taxi Driver, when he put on the shoes, he knew exactly who Travis Bickle was. Um, and once Quentin heard that, he was like, well, I'm gonna be there. So sometimes then you, you know, gather clothes, great clothes from all over. And then you have this moment with an actor who you haven't necessarily collaborated with in advance.

And so Edgar Wright and Quentin, some, some filmmakers are actually there, which, you know, leads to fun and pressure filled, right. Trial and error. Because you know, I think sometimes something is so clear in your head and as you watch a process, you know, for Baby Driver for Baby, we, we tried on 65, a hundred jackets and you know, it's not an instantaneous thing.

Right? It's a process. And that's when the actor can be involved, you know, like. On Hateful Eight, like Kurt Russell had this like absolute breakdown where he was like, these are not my boots. And I was like, okay. You know, Robert De Niro says that you're the character in the boots. So if they're not your boots, they're not your boots.

Meg: And then as you're trying to, in a way, like the, the writer creates the character, um, and is giving indication, like you said, seeds, right? Yes. And then it seems like you're having to do macro and micro, right? So macro is color, is and shape. And, and I would think like in animation, there's a color board, right?

And you're literally watching the movie and DPs are doing colors, but you're, you're feathering into that big, sweeping color mood tone. But then it goes all the way down to the micro of the shoes, right? Yeah. Would you say if you're a writer. You're writing or when you're writing your own scripts, if something's super important because obviously if it's gonna enter the plot, if the shoes are going to enter the plot, you've, you've planted them and been very, very clear about it.

Um, but do you ever, how much do you want the writer to give those micro details? 

Courtney: I think it all needs to be in service of the story you're telling. Um, and if not, it just feels like a prescription. And I think you never wanna give creatives a prescription. You wanna give them a jumping off point or a springboard.

So if the shoes were a really important, you know, story point, and in the last scene this was the big, she's always wanted Louboutins and she gets to go buy them and she wants that red bottom on the shoe, like, you know. Okay, sure. Tell me what shoe it is that you see. Um, but I think a lot of times, you know, you wanna put all those details in and I think it's much more interesting to describe who someone is than what they're wearing.

And obviously, you know, speak up if there's something that is so verbatim to you. But I think, you know, one thing I prepared for us to talk about today was like actually looking at some of these scripts and how characters were presented and then sort of the interpretation that comes from that.

And what I found in revisiting a lot of those, because I hadn't, you know, looked at what Captain Fantastic, what Matt Ross wrote about the characters, um, in this like, really pivotal scene since I designed it. And going back it was like, oh yeah, that, that was why my instinct was like. You wrote the best script I've ever, ever read, but I don't agree with almost anything you wrote about what they wear and here's why.

Right. And so, you know, I think there's, um, you have to find the perfect balance of being inspiring and, and not being over managerial, if that makes sense. 

Meg: Right, right, right. And before we get to the descriptions, because I think that's gonna be super fun. Is there any pet peeve that you have for writers dealing with costume or, or character that you've, it just drives you crazy?

Courtney: I mean, I think just writing that, like she wears Converse sneakers and other, and I'm just like, I kind of like roll my eyes because I'm like, what do you need me for? You know, like, I think, and I'm sure that a lot of designers wouldn't have that opinion. I think again, that's what makes some scripts more appropriate to engage different people and different creatives.

So you wanna do what's authentic to you and your style too. Um, but you know, like I was going down this rabbit hole for my own like edification and excitement and I'm like, how did Greta describe Barbie? How did, like, you know, I just like wanted to see, you know, we only get to the final product. And the truth is, from the, even though writing is such a grueling process, the actual process of filmmaking.

It's like, forget the seven years you spent writing this script. Like here's where the work actually starts according to every actual department and not, you know, you and your writing partner or you alone. Right. Being like in the room, oh, I was alone for so long. Uh, which is one of the, the biggest struggles I have now being a writer is like, I didn't pick out a pair of socks without an audience of people going, that's great.

Yeah. Those socks, you know? Right, right. And then I'm like, year five and I'm like, does this pivotal thing happen in act two or this pivotal thing? Like this is the next six years of my life. Like, so suddenly it's, yeah. 

Meg: It's so funny. It's, this is a different context, right? And you're six years of your life and you're asking yourself in a room, 

Courtney: I'm alone in a room and it's so lonely and I just wanna get to the part where people come on and make the ideas even better.

Meg: Well, it's funny because I do think, like, it's funny, I'm writing a script, like I said, with my husband and, and clothes are gonna be a big part of the story. I'm, I'm finding in the early drafts I am saying things like Converse or whatever, like I am, but I know in my head eventually that's just for me to start to see them.

Yeah. But then I don't know that I will, they'll stay, it'll stay like again, unless it's plot. That it has to be me learning who they are. And it's like, oh no, this is, it's not about Converse. This is a girl who likes to disappear. Yes. She doesn't wanna stand out. Right? Yes. So that's different than, and me telling you, and so she wears this kind of coat and this No, no, no.

She likes to disappear. But I don't, I just wanna assure writers who are writing drafts, sometimes you have to write the clothes to get to the thing. So it's, it's about drafts, right? And finding the seed. Sometimes we're seeding for ourselves what the heck's going on. Right? 

Courtney: Yeah. I love that. I love that.

I think that that feels so relatable to be able to express it how you need to, but then do the actual work of challenging yourself and saying like, what, what is the costume trying to do for this character? You know, are they making them feel like it's the hottest moment of their life? Or, you know, bringing them down in a moment where things seem like they were getting better.

Um, and I think if you kind of go behind what your sort of more superficial instinct was of describing something. I think that's just a more exciting nugget to give somebody. 

Meg: And I think sometimes when you're writing, you might not even think, oh, this is not important. And then you've barf draft or written two drafts and you're the character, like you said, the arc.

Like you're starting to go, oh wait, at the end she's gonna really show up. Well, that means I have to describe her as disappearing. Like sometimes you have to get to the end of that arc to even know, right? Yes. Oh, this is what. The clothing, the costume designer they would be drawing from is this arc. And again, it's so funny because we get notes or we turn scripts and, and you get these notes and it's just like, well, but because your, your executive knows that every department is gonna read this and need all of these things.

Like it's not just them that needs it, it's the director needs it. They need it for the poster. Yes. But they also need it for all these departments. Um, again, don't worry about that. If you're in your early drafts, just write what you write. But this is for later as you're shaping and sculpting. 

Courtney: I'm looking at a script as a costume designer years after someone's been developing it, you know, it's like probably draft 12, so, right. Take the time. You need to figure that out. But I just think it informs, at least for me as a writer now, the way I write character and the way I kind of create the visual iconography of the world I'm telling a story about. 

Meg: So I have two questions before we get to the descriptions. One is – so Lorien, I wish she was able to be here today because she loves writing about what's in characters' pockets. I have no time for that. I'm literally like, what are they doing? What is the arc? Where are we going? What's the main relationship? Like I, but she wants to talk about, so for you, once you've got that arc and those bigger macro things and you are thinking about what's in their pocket, how do you get there? How do you figure out what's in their pockets? 

Courtney: Um, okay. So I think I'll use the example of the film, The Hateful Eight, um, Quentin's, winter Western, um, because the characters all wore one costume and obviously if you know you're entering a Tarantino world, you know the characters are probably gonna go from clean to bloody, um, and everything in between.

But, um, there, the whole point of that story was everyone was presenting one way and being someone else. Um, and the story was those layers sort of coming out without necessarily much change to what they were wearing. So I think that was a place where in collaboration with Quentin and the props department and the actors, it felt really important to inform who they were for their performances.

Um, so it's really about kind of taking apart the script and figuring out where they had come from. Um, there's this big moment with, you know, Sam Jackson with this Lincoln letter where he has a letter from President Lincoln that sort of like his pass, uh, throughout the script with Bruce Dern. And there's a bunch of different moments around it.

So, you know, like even though he's only pulling it out in one moment, you know, we might be setting it in his costume the whole time because it's like that letter was his pass as a black man in this western world, and it was sort of like his shield. So even if it was only gonna be pulled out in one scene, you know, an hour and a half in.

It, it felt important to inform the characters and the actors. Um, you know, Michael Madson, rest in peace. He was the king of this. He would like, want, he was like, and I have a notebook and I have a this, and then he would like, come through the costume department and like start stealing things. And like, I was like, that's, that's my desk.

Like, that's actually, and he is like, Nope, I need, you know, this safe like paper clip, this like thing. And you know, I think it's really just about giving performers a safe space to, to color in between those lines for themselves. And I think, um. You know, movies like even with Baby Driver, that was really important to the characters.

Um, because I think Edgar Wright works in an almost like comic book esque place where everybody's almost like , like sketched out like a comic book character. And so to make the actors feel dimensional, we had a lot of conversations about stuff like that, you know, and what you, oh, you want, you want bubbles?

You know, Eiza Gonzalez was like, I wanna blow bubbles in the scene. Can we get like bubbles in my purse? And it's like, I'm not asking where they came from, but like, let's get, let's get this girl. She robs banks and she blows bubbles. Let's do it. 

Meg: I love that. Something that, um, I think you and Jeff talked about, uh, in the pre-interview was that Quentin told you that a character's costume has to be instantly iconic. Can you, can you talk about that a little bit? 

Courtney: The I word. Yeah. Um, iconic. I mean, I think like right now, every person listening can name 10 iconic costumes, right? Like we go Wizard of Oz, we, you know, like whatever it is for you. Han Solo. Yeah. You know, Han Solo, you can picture them perfectly in your head.

And Quentin obviously he owns, the man owns Halloween. You know, you go and you see a black suit and a tie, okay, you're a Reservoir Dog, right? And you go and you see a bloody nose, Mia Wallace pre and post syringe, you know, name it, The Bride name it keep going. Like, you know, so entering into that world and I started working with him on Django and, and I have a fun cameo as the costume designer in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

But you know, going through that process and stepping into those shoes is really daunting because you're like, okay, how do I design something that will live on past the moment of what you're seeing? And so I, I felt like really overwhelmed by that challenge. And so I started approaching it like I would a period.

Okay, so it's 1950s. Okay, so what is iconic? And so I kind of like broke it down into like an equation, which is visual simplicity. because right now think of Han Solo. Think of all of these things. There's visual simplicity plus narrative depth plus cultural penetration equals iconic. Now I. I only have control over the first two.

I can't decide whether something is gonna culturally penetrate that's on the writer and the filmmaker, and the moment in time it comes out. So the only things I can control are visual simplicity and, and you know, I also actually can't control the narrative depth that's also on the writer. 

Meg: If you have to pull the narrative depth out and make it into the metaphor of the costume.

Courtney: Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, I think if, I think you know about one of the challenges in, in The Hateful Eight, it was like. It's winter, like, it's so cold. So they need a million layers. So it's already not gonna be simple, you know, like Han Solo's not wearing that many layers, you know? Right, right. And Indiana Jones didn't have that many coats.

Um, he had like his one, but I think I really thought about it more in terms of shape and color, um, in terms of like hats. Um, in terms of, you know, obviously a filmmaker like Quentin is pulling a lot from cinematic references. So like Lee Van Cleef, who's an old Western star, was like a huge influence for Sam Jackson's hat.

Um, so, you know, a, a lot of times you can also borrow from what stuck around or what works in other films, you know, but, um, I wouldn't say it's, you know, a piece of cake or there is something, but like, I just, like, that's my approach to, you know, what is an iconic character. And, and as a filmmaker now, and as a writer, director who primarily considers themselves a director. Um, because writing is such a struggle that I'm like, do I have to be that too? Okay, I'm six years in or seven years in, I am. But, uh, you know, the, you know, my sort of mark, when I tell people, they say, what kind of projects should we look for for you? What kinds of things like you do cross genre.

Like what is it I say to people, could the characters of this project be Halloween costumes? And now as a filmmaker, that's what I strive for. So I got the iconic bug and we'll see you. 

Meg: You have it? Okay. In terms of narrative depth, obviously yes, it's gotta come from the script and ultimately the director.

But do you find some of the conversations you're having with either the actor or the director or yourself as you're planning. Narrative depth of, well, a typical quote unquote Western cowboy. Yeah. They'd have all of these things, but what gives this character, character is he also, I'm just making this up, you know, has a stuffed animal in, in his backpack.

Like meaning, I would think that the costume has to also at some point reflect the layers of the character, that they're not one thing that, that you're combining either clothes or objects with them to start to give hints to their, um, character, right? 

Courtney: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think. Um, you know, great characters are also built in the anachronistic and I think, you know, if you, um, think of some like other great moments in film, a lot of times it's when a character is being anachronistic to the world they're in or to themselves and what we've seen of them.

So I think that's a place where the depth comes out. Um, but also it goes back to that forensics and like looking through a script and finding those moments where, you know, you, you see the relationship between. The feeling of the movie and the feeling of a scene and the design of that scene. 

Meg: Mm, yeah. I love that.

Alright, so let's do your case studies and then we'll move on and talk about you as a filmmaker and ask you some questions and the jump, how you did, how did you make the jump and, uh, proof of concept. There's so many other things. So, but case studies and design. Uh. Take it away. What, what do you wanna, 

Courtney: Well because it's Jeff's favorite movie. I think let's start with Captain Fantastic by Matt Ross. Uh, and if you haven't seen it, it's by far, of the 40 films I've worked on, my absolute favorite. 

Jeff: So I'm gonna jump in real quick too. It is so underrated. It's one of those movies you watched and you're like, why didn't this get every Oscar nom? But anyway, I'll stop. It is so good. I'm done. You go.

Courtney: It's so good. I like want to have children to show them this movie. It's so cool. Um, that's how important it's to me. But if you just right now Google the poster, uh, the costumes that I'm gonna talk about are on the poster. So to give a little context before I read the excerpt, um, the whole story is about, uh, a, a family that lives off the wood in the woods in the forest.

Viggo Mortenson's, the dad, he has this group of kids, he's raised them outside of society. His wife has fallen into a dark depression and killed herself. And the movie is about them hitting the road and going to this funeral that she's having because she would never want to have a standard funeral and they want to stop it.

So this scene, um, like I get chills just thinking about it, is them arriving to the funeral. Um, and so this is what Matt wrote in the script. 

It is now morning, and Ben is wearing a baby blue vintage tuxedo, that's Viggo's character. The shirt. The shirt has enormous ruffles. He's helping the kids as they scramble around trying to get dressed. Each kid is wearing their favorite piece of clothing. The twins wear pink tights and tutus, Nai has on his frayed Batman costume. Zaja is wearing what looks like some kind of military outfit, and Bo is wearing his thrift store suit. Rellian is still in his pajamas. 

So this to me like there's nothing more upsetting as a costume designer, than a scene where talk about anachronistic, talk about an eruption.

A group of people are gonna walk into like a standard church funeral. Everyone's in black and now this is what they're wearing. And when I met Matt for the first time, you know, I, I said like I, you know, this script has so much originality and richness, but how many times have you seen a baby blue, seventies tuxedo with ruffled shirts?

Mm-hmm. And I also think that the way that it reads, it feels like they're trying to be distracting for a distracting sake, but actually they're trying to honor their mom. So how can we link every costume that they're wearing to something that had to do with their mom? So smart. Thank you. Well, so Viggo gets in the fitting room and we start talking about it and he goes, well, I have this red shirt I wore to my first wedding, and he pulls out the shirt that he's wearing in the, in the poster.

And I go, you wore that to your wedding? And he's like, yeah, I feel like. It should be what I, I was like, I feel like it should be what he wore to his wedding. He's wearing what he wore to his wedding, to her funeral. So I basically was like, we need the perfect suit to match it. So I like scoured the world looking for this cherry red suit.

Okay, that's his costume. Now, one of the kids, it describes them as being in a Batman costume. I'm like, ma, these people live off the grid in the forest. He doesn't know who Batman is. So if you live in Seattle, like who's Batman? Okay, Batman is a whale. Your Batman's gonna be a whale. So this hand spun whale costume that, you know, his mom made him.

And then for the other girls, I just felt like they're on this bus. They take this trip, like everyone there should be working on making some element of their costume to honor her by collecting flowers on the side of the road or cutting up other clothes they've worn throughout the movie to showcase this, or pretending that they knit their own crocheted, their own outfit.

Um, and Matt was so game that he worked it into the action of the script. So every time you see them in the bus, they're like, you know, they got fresh flowers from the side of the road and they're working on their flower crowns. And everyone just like dove so deep into the sort of authenticity of, of the storytelling of what they wore.

Um, and I feel like this is a really like triumphant, uh, way to sort of explore this sort of script to screen moment. 

Meg: Perfect. I love it. Let's do another one. I just wanna do them all now. 

Courtney: I know, right? Okay, so let's do Baby Driver. 

Young, baby-faced, short cropped hair. He wears mostly black. Sports cheap gas station shades. This is Baby, we can't see his eyes, but his blank expression seems pretty stoic. He listens to the track, stares out the windshield. 

Um, so, you know, to me what I interpreted from this is like Baby is in some ways a blank canvas and he lives in a world that's very black and white. Black is the world of crime that he's interacting with.

And then white is this sort of innocence, this love story, this relationship he has with his dad. But over the course of the movie, he sort of starts getting his hands dirtier and dirtier. So one way that I wanted to sort of shape, because I knew he was again gonna wear the same costume, the whole movie. I did that a lot, I guess costume, like one costume per movie.

Um, which ironically is a lot harder than designing 500 costumes. I mean, maybe not to the designers that got to design 500 costumes, but, you know, so one way that I really wanted to see what was happening to him throughout the film change, and honestly, I don't know if anyone ever noticed or anyone will ever care, but he wears this same white t-shirt.

And over the course of the film, it goes from white to gray. And so like, as the film goes on, it starts getting muddier, then starts getting grayer. And so by the end it's like bloody and gray and like he's entered the world of crime and there's no, no cross. Like, you know, he's, he's doesn't get to section off his life.

His real life and his crime life have intersected. Um, and you know, again. This was an opportunity to design, not just for the script I'm reading, but for the director. And like I said, Edgar Wright. Like think of Scott Pilgrim, think of any of his films. They have that Halloween costume thing. They have that simplicity and I love texture, but they are not textured.

Mm-hmm. So I pulled back my own sort of desire to make everything layered and textured and just kept everything really flat and really two dimensional. Um. So yeah, that was, that was Baby. 

Meg: Fun. Fun, fun. Love it. 

Jeff: Can I say something real quick about just, I love you were saying like, I don't know if anyone noticed the shirt goes from white to gray, but what's beautiful is like their soul probably noticed. It's like what we try to do as writers with subtext, where you almost don't want them to notice in their brain.

You want them to like notice it in their heart almost, which is like a very reductive way to say it, but I'm like, it actually speaks to the elegance of the choice you made that we didn't notice, but we felt it. Um, that's I think like a reminder both to any department heads who might be listening or writers. Sometimes that's actually like the magic trick is when they don't notice. 

Courtney: Yeah, I agree. Um, I'm a flashy bitch, so, you know, I like when people notice things, but I agree it's not always appropriate, so keep it to the subtlety. Um. Okay, let's do Hateful Eight. Just, these are my three favorite movies I worked on.

I've worked on a lot more and then I'll do a quick round of other ones I looked up that were just really fun. Okay. Okay, so this is John Ruth and Daisy, which is Kurt Russell and Jennifer Jason Lee's costumes. Um, she won the Oscar for this, so, you know, if you have some cold misery hours in you, you can come visit this.

Um, I'm like, glad I did the least popular of the Tarantino movies, but it's fine. It's fine. Can all be fun. Can't all be fun in games. This is a hard world. Um, okay, so –

The fella in the wagon is a rough looking white lawman type with a drop dead black hat and a walrus like mustache above his top lip. He one arms a rifle at Major Warren's direction. The other arm is handcuffed to the wrist of a female passenger slash prisoner in the stagecoach with him. She sits across from him her wrist cuffed to his wrist. His cuffed hand holds a pistol. The pistol pointed at her belly. This once pretty white lady, maybe before the trip maybe years ago, wears a once pretty dress and a once sexy smirk.

Um, so yeah, so for this, it's like we didn't know anything else about these people. So what I chose to do is I knew that John Ruth, who's Kurt Russell's character, is the bully. Of the room. He's a bully of these eight characters. So my goal was to make him have the most physically imposing costume. Mm-hmm.

So to me that was about taking this big bison coat that we had made and making sure that just the arms and just the chest were as big as they could be. And everything else is sort of sheared and, and sleeker. Um, so that, even just walking into a room, he sort of looked like Popeye, you know, he looks like this like big giant imposing force.

Um, and for Jennifer Jason Lee there, there wasn't really anything about her character. because everything was hidden. And the one time in one conversation I overheard Quentin say, yeah, well, he took her when she was on the way to boarding a boat to go to Europe. And I was like, wait, wait, what? Like, I, I didn't know that.

I didn't know that. Okay. So she has to wear a dress that was like ready for her big European debut. And so we made this dress and at one point they were supposed to take their coats off, but then the shoot was so cold that you absolutely never see a dress that has like a, about. 600 custom embroidered flowers on it, um, because it's always under the coat.

But the idea was that she got the coat along the way from somebody else he shot. And so we had that have like a blood stain and a bullet in the back. So it was like, he's like killed some guy. Gave her his coat, it was like, shut up, stop complaining, you're cold. Um, and you know, it was really about the, you know, contrast between who she was under the coat and, and you know, trying to be like a lady while she gets really violently attacked in every scene.

Um, and you know, just really making the shapes between the two of them stand out like dolls. And I've seen the dolls and that and that worked out. Um, love it. You wanna do the quick wrap? 

Meg: I wanna do another one.

Courtney: In addition to, you know, the movies that I've gotten to work on, I thought it would be fun to just sort of read off a bunch of other iconic character descriptions to inspire the listeners.

So, Django Unchained, the blue boy outfit, um –

Django enters the street, dressed like something out of the blue boy painting by Gainesboro. He's decked out in a bright blue satin short pants, a ruffled shirt, a little silk waist coast, white stockings, black shoes with big buckles, and a matching blue satin jacket with tails.

Now there he described every single tiny thing, but I think that that was important because it's so anachronistic to the time period that you have to give a designer permission to go that balls out, you know, actually we're gonna be in a store. You would never see that color anywhere in the Old West. Um, and the other thing that Quentin always says is.

I'm not trying to create history, I'm trying to recreate it. And so I think that that feels important there. Okay. Han Solo. 

Han is a tough rish star pilot, about 30 years old, a mercenary on a Starship. He is simple, sentimental and cocksure.

 And I feel like that is, they nailed that. You could not have found that any better.

And it's simple, you know, you really go back to Star Wars, 

Meg: It's sentimental. Mm-hmm. Which you wouldn't think.  

Courtney: Then I was like Seven Year Itch. Marilyn Monroe. How did they know to make that white dress? This is all we've got. 

The girl, a young, attractive blonde model. The dialogue says, oh, do you feel the breeze from under the subway?

Isn't it delicious? What did they say? They had a lot of good conversations. I don't know what they did. That was cool. Um, Travis Bickle –

Travis Bickle, aged 26, lean, hard, the consummate loner. On the surface, he appears good looking, even handsome. He has a quiet, steady look and a disarming smile, which flashes from nowhere lighting up his whole face. But behind that smile, around his dark eyes, in his gaunt cheeks, one can see the ominous stains caused by a life of private fear, emptiness, and loneliness. He seems to have wandered in from a land where it is always cold, a country where the inhabitants seldom speak, the head moves, the expression changes, but the eyes remain ever fixed, unblinking, piercing, empty space.

Meg: Wow. Right? We don't get that much space anymore to write about a character. Just to be fair to all the writers out there, two, one line, two lines. You get two lines, but wow, that's amazing. 

Courtney: But I think, you know, Quentin is someone, and if, if anyone who's listening hasn't read one of his scripts, it's, it's worth doing because he writes his scripts like love letters to the people reading them.

So there is so much in there that is not on the screen. And again, none of us get to do that. We have economy of space. No one's until you're, Quentin, no one's that excited about what you're writing. So make it fricking brief. Right. But, but to be reminded of what it feels like when you get to languish in the words and live in the ideas is just like so revelatory.

And the first draft of my first script Western that I had written of The Good Time Girls feature, everybody was like, what are you doing? Like, we, we don't want, we're not with you. Like. It's two lines of action. And I'm like, but in the Tarantino world that I've been in for 10 years of my career, like, he writes little messages just to the reader that nobody would ever know who watches the movie.

And they're like, yeah, you're not, you're not him. 

Meg: But it would be a, I'm gonna do it. Because it'd be so fun to read them. But no, to our, especially to our emerging writers, I mean, you get to find your own voice, right, of course. But you're not gonna get to do what he does because that's him. So he gets to do that.

Courtney: Yes. Um, and I think the same thing with a lot of auteurs, but it's inspiring to read and then sort of say, okay, how can I dissect the feeling of this in a short time? 

Meg: Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let's talk about you as a writer director. because I know a lot of people who listen already are in the business, but maybe in other, um, jobs and they're transitioning.

So I'd love to talk about just why the transition, why, why writing and directing? Clearly, you're incredibly good at your job. You're working at a very high level. Why did you feel the need to become a writer director? What, what happened? 

Courtney: I mean, I think for the first like 15 years of my career, I honestly didn't know women could be writers and directors because I never worked with any of them. Um, but as I started to branch out and I started making a lot of like Glamour magazines, 35 women in Hollywood under 35. And I'd be like, how as a costume designer did you find me? And they were like, well, there's not that many. People under that aged costume designing.

So I started looking at sort of the big picture of my career and I had a lot of goals. Uh, like I wanted an ArcLight display, RIP, which means your costumes are displayed in this movie theater Hollywood. And it feels like everything matters. And now that movie theater doesn't even exist.

Jeff: The Academy Museum, Courtney. The Academy Museum, that's what you –

Meg: AMC at Universal City Walk has them as well.

Jeff: Yes, it'll happen. It'll get enshrined somewhere else. 

Courtney: Right, right. No, I mean, I made those things happen. It just doesn't matter anymore because the Arclight doesn't exist. But I, you know, I started feeling a little bit of a ceiling of like, okay, so I'm just gonna keep doing this for 20, 30 more years. Like, what is the next challenge?

And, um, I actually. My first success as a human being, uh, was when I was 16. I wrote a play, um, called Women Are the Weaker Sex. It was a revisionist history about Shakespeare's heroines in a women's support group meeting with Shakespeare. And afterwards I had like won every under 18 young writers thing you could write, and I got literally got writer's block for 20 years.

I was just like, how could I beat that? You know, first thing outta the gate, and I'm done. I can't work that hard. It's scary and kind of pushed it away. Um, and so I kind of had to take a moment in a room quietly by myself and say like, okay, if I could just dream up anything I could be doing, you know, what would it be?

And I think I, I felt like being a cinephile was a very specific thing for one kind of man. But in my interactions with Quentin and Edgar and a lot of the filmmakers, um, that I would work with, I started feeling like my lens on storytelling was bigger than just the clothes. And I felt really reinforced that my takeaway was different than theirs, but was equally fundamental.

And that sort of gave me the confidence to say, okay. I think I am a writer director. Um, and so I applied to the AFI Women's Directing Workshop. It's been around for a million years. Gave us great, great female filmmakers, Sian Heder, who won the Oscar for CODA. I mean, I think Leslie Linka Glatter, you know, a lot of amazing people.

And so I sort of, I applied before I did Baby Driver, and if I got in. It would start the week. Baby Driver ended and, you know, in the middle of the shoot I got in and I was with Lily James and I was like, I just got into this directing program. And she's like, of course you're a director. You know, and most of the actors that I had worked with, um, had started coming to me for more than just costumes.

So, um, on Django Unchained, I was brought on by Christoph Waltz, who I had worked with on Water for Elephants. Um, and he started telling everyone on Water for Elephants that I was his acting coach, you know? And I was like, yeah, isn't he so much better than that Inglorious Bastards role he did thank. God I here.

Uh, and mostly it wasn't about. Acting notes. It was about, uh, making people feel confident and feel good in the work they were doing. Hmm. And you know, before there were intimacy coordinators, there were costume designers. So I've been with people in their most vulnerable moments on a set. And, uh, I started seeing a pattern, um, and I was always getting in trouble for caring about other departments.

Like, I was like, what color is the set? Like, whoa, that's not gonna work. Like going to DPs. And I mean, I worked on Terence Malik, I did Chivo, like name a great DP. I've worked with them and, you know, got to go like, I know you don't like white, but it's a wedding, so what do you want her to wear? You know?

I used to joke that like, if I was driving, people would ask me to stay in my lane, but if you've ever seen the films I make or my driving, I like to go in all the lanes. 

Meg: It's a very good indication. It's funny, I listened to Barbara Streisand memoir and she had the same experience as an actress. She just kept getting everybody else's lanes, which just means yes, you should be directing. So I love that. Okay. 

But what about the writing? So that all, yeah, I can understand how that all applies to the directing. Absolutely. What about the writing? How has that transition been? Yeah, how did you go about that?

Courtney: Well, um, you know, I think I never pictured I would be a professional writer who sold multiple TV shows and, and films. Like I, I just wanted to direct. And so to me it was a vessel to do that. And I started finding that my ideas had currency. And so, uh, I was sort of forced out of my fears around it for better or worse.

And thanks to, you know. Michael Arndt and you guys and all these people that make it feel less scary and less lonely. Um, I was able to make the transition and it really just came out of having generals as a filmmaker. After my first short film with Laura Dern came out called The Good Time Girls. And I went on, you know, the, the water meeting when people had water in person and weren't just on Zoom and went all over.

And I would say like, oh, I have this seed of an idea about a 1970s trucker movie that's kind of like Smokey and the Bandit and I just have these images of characters I'm excited to build, or worlds I'm excited to explore. And then people would say, well, tell me more about that, you know, and I'd go, okay, I'm not gonna go figure out more about it.

But, um, I, it was very organic and the part that came later was the sort of really harsh realization that just because I write something doesn't mean I'll get to be on that set. And, uh, so I feel really grateful. I feel like I learned to be a writer by being paid, which is a rarefied, rarefied air that I would kill to have right now post strike.

But, um, it gave me the authenticity to be like, okay, I can do this. And for everyone out there that isn't in that boat, like, you have to keep writing because it is the bravest thing you can do. And I'm literally writing my first spec script now, you know, six years later. Because at the end of the day, I want control and I don't wanna just be a byproduct of the maternity leave that my executive went on.

And then she moved to another thing, you know, like, and the amount of randomness. Um, it was a really, really hard lesson. Um. Because I just think I operated as a costume designer in the real, I get a script, it has money. Sometimes it fell apart, but for the most part it was on its way to being real. Hmm. And everyone would always say, Hollywood's so full of shit.

And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm on a set, I'm in the middle of Montana, name a crazy location. I'm seeing this happen. This is a real thing, a real art form. And then going into writing, you know, it was like, oh, okay. So we have to feel like it's real, but it's actually all made up, you know, all made up. It's painful. 

Meg: And you, and like you said, this executive loves and they leave and they go somewhere else or, yeah, it's, it, it, it's a very kind of, you, you have to keep constantly falling in love again and risking again and again and again just to because to see if it'll exist even. Yeah. Which is also I think why, you know, I do other things like crafty things because I just need to exist. I just, I just need something to exist. Yes. So let me ask you, um, uh. The proof of concept? Yes, because I wanna make sure I have time to ask you this question. Talk to me about how it came about. What for our very young emerging writers is a proof of concept. Just talk a little bit about that and what happened.

Courtney: Yeah, so when I made my first short The Good Time Girls with Laura Dern, the woman who ran AFI Women's Directing Workshop at the time was like, this is gonna be the best proof of concept. And I was like, what is a proof of concept? Uh, so I was right there with you. Um, and essentially proof of concept is a slice of.

The film or the TV project that you wanna make and you can go back in time and there's Bottle Rocket, there's a lot of great films. Um, and you can just look 'em up, proof of concepts and see sort of the origin of some of these things that we, we know because they're now in the creative lexicon because in order for them to get there, they needed to prove a little bit more.

So instead of, so for the proof of concept I made, it was for this 1970s trucker movie. I originally was in a general with Bad Robot, JJ Abrams company, and they were like, wait, JJ really wants to do like seventies road movie. He now has Duster. But at the time, that was exciting and so I got to develop that. Sold it to Paramount. Their deal left from Paramount to Warner Brothers. They took it to Warner Brothers the week of the pandemic. I pitched to HBO Max when they thought they were making original movies and like, you weren't like shaking hands because you thought you could spread coronavirus that way, but like, we're in a room together.

Um, and then the pandemic hit, it got like absorbed to New Line. They were like, we didn't ask for this. Um, and so it lived and died a lot of death. Um, and you know, for me it just became something I was fixated on and I needed, you know, in 1977, Star Wars is the highest grossing movie, the second highest grossing movie, Smokey and the Bandit.

Um, it's, to me, it takes place in 1972 Nixon's in the White House. It's a country divided by war overseas and women's lib. And, you know, just something that feels so akin to this moment in time that we're surviving and has continued, unfortunately, to be relevant that way. And, um, and so I, I was really fortunate.

I heard about this program that Coco Francini and Cate Blanchett were launching with Netflix called Proof of Concept. The, you know, selection committee was Greta Gerwig and Chloe Zhao and you know, Janicza Bravo and Lily Wachowski and you know, a powerhouse of the women we respect in this industry. And they read all the top applications and they chose this to be part of it.

And so thanks to someone at Bad Robot before they left, I was able to get the rights back to this project that I had. It's like slaved over like made trucker friends. Like I know so much about trucking. I think for me, the only way I can survive off writing is by making it dimensional. So I am like on trucker Facebook groups and in Peterbilt fan clubs and it's like I go so deep, which is part of what makes the disappointment so much bigger too, because you're like suddenly like, oh my God, a whole like.

Group of people on this, like Native Lakota, people are caring about this project I'm working on, and now when it doesn't happen, I'm also failing them. But besides the point 

Meg: Now, do you have the script written? 

Courtney: Oh, it was written for Paramount. It was written again for all that back then. So now it's just mine. And so I'm like, okay, if I'm not being told like the studio mandate is to get this news by this page, then what is the best version of it? You know? So, so that's where we're at right now and we're gonna repackage it with this proof of concept that I think, you know, I was able to also raise money from Peterbilt motor trucks.

Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I think just word of advice to people out there, like find money from unexpected places. And if you do something through a program, you're a not-for-profit and a big company, you might be able to write a check. For something like that. And, um, it was organic because I was obsessed with their trucks.

So all of a sudden this girl from Los Angeles is like coming to them being like, I'm gonna make you a star. 

Meg: I love that. Wait, Jeff, if you need to ask your question. 

Jeff: We can keep it very fast. This has been amazing. Courtney. Thank you so much for your time. I just, it's just you and I gushing about Matt Ross. I'm such a fan of that movie. It's very underrated. The thing I love about that movie is the characters are so rich and the performances are so lived in, which are my favorite kinds of movies. And I'm wondering if you learned anything from him on set, um, that you're taking with you as you pursue your own career directing.

Courtney: Yeah, I mean, I think every filmmaker I worked for gave me a different lesson and I, I think I always wonder how people do it without that vantage point because you get to see how you win people over, how you alienate your crew, like all of the different things. So I think Matt has like a really fun anarchist side, and he's so like that character of like, fuck the man. And there's something that's so empowering about being with someone who, who operates in the creative to that degree. And I think that's probably the reason it's been a few years. He's gonna have a Netflix show come out now, but it took some time before his next thing, I think because he's, he's interested in authenticity and serving the story and serving his ideas in a way that I think a lot of early directors don't get to get away with.

And he is such an actor's director coming from being an actor, but he didn't treat the kids like kids. He just would be like, you know, okay, let's do it again. You know, you know, he's, he's brilliant and, uh, and he, he, he was story first above everything else and, and the vision. And, um, he made it look easy for what a beautiful movie he made.

Meg: Amazing. Well, we're excited to see where, where you go. I have, I have no doubt that you're going to scale the heights as a writer director. Thank you. Um, just, just from the sheer instincts that you have, I love your instincts on character. It's just amazing. Um, but now as a fan of the show, you know, so I, I am sure you're ready for the last three questions.

Um, all right. What brings you the most joy? I'm gonna say when it comes to writing, directing. 

Courtney: Okay. Well, if you said writing, I was gonna say directing. Um, I think problem solving, the fact that time and frustration and pain equals gain equals making things better. Um, I feel like there are very few crafts that put you through that level of a ringer.

Um, to come out on top or at least feel like you have breakthroughs. Um, and I think learning about worlds, I just, that's still such a huge part of my lexicon of storytelling and, um, engaging with real people that I'm writing people like, um, and, and that window to connection outside of the lonely room by myself.

Meg: Okay. So what pisses you off about writing/directing?

Courtney: I think, um, the expectation of free work, the amount of labor that goes into it, um, that feels. You know, the first week of my career was the 2007 writer strike, and I was illegally working as like an intern on something and driving by the picket lines every day. And I was like, what are writers complaining about?

Like, I literally have to wash period stained underwear for a living. How could it be worse than that? And now that I'm a writer, I gotta say it is. And I, when I joined the picket line was like, I, I get that. You might think that this is easy, or it is a, it is a blessing to be able to dream for a living, but the amount of work that it takes to get there and the amount of unpaid work and the amount that we're tested against our own will to have something come to life, um, that makes me feel really angry.

Um, and, and I think just the creative grief that comes with it, um. And having a hard time, like acknowledging that creative grief is real grief and needing to mourn things when they don't come to life. 

Meg: Very, very astute and important for all of us writers to hear. If you could have coffee with your younger self, what advice would you give?

Courtney: Buckle up because it's gonna be a long ride. And I think the beginning of my career was all about hitting landmarks as quickly as I could. And, uh, for better or worse, I made this jump to be challenged. And boy have I been and will continue to be. And. It's, you know, it's the measure of a lifetime. It's not the measure of one moment in your career or one rejection.

And you have to just keep going and you have to just keep your head up and keep creating. And I think, I don't know how you guys have felt, but for the last couple years it's been really hard to dream and to create because it's felt so futile. And I recently had an agent just say like, well, what are you waiting for?

Just go create another TV show idea. And I, I just needed that freedom again to be reminded that everything is in our power because we have these imaginations and these this will to sit down and do it. And that is something that makes it so no one can stop us.

Meg: Ugh. I needed to hear that today. 

Courtney: And send me your scripts. because I don't wanna write it all. Slide into my DMs. 

Meg: Don't say that. Don't. 

Courtney: My wife said, please tell them to send ODAs to us. Because we don't, I was like, all right, you're, she's less a writer than me. 

Meg: I don't think that you want that. Contest winners – that's at least – we need some sort of a great – 

Courtney: Hold the log line contest. 

Meg: Yes.

Courtney, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Courtney: Thank you for helping me make one of my writing dreams come true. I listen to this and hike, crying to your words that I am not alone and I have to keep writing. I feel like there could be a montage of me and different hiking outfits, so many different hills crying. So thank you for making this show. 

Meg: Thank you. That's amazing. And it's great to hear, honestly, because you know, there's days that Lorien and I and the gang are like, why are we doing this? Mm-hmm. Like, what's happening? We're not becoming millionaires. Uh, but this is why. This is why. So it's very important to hear, uh, and to get reviews, people on the Apple Podcast, uh, of your choice.

Thank you so much, Courtney. I really appreciate it. Thank you guys. Thanks so much to Courtney for being on the show. For more support, you can join our TSL Facebook community as well as our workshop site. And to all of our listeners, remember, you are not alone and keep writing.