260 | From Barf Draft to Next Draft: 5 Steps to Take Now

In this episode, Meg and Lorien dive into a messy, magical stage of screenwriting: the barf draft — your first unfiltered pass at a script.

They share how to tackle chaos on the page, whether your draft is too long, too short, tonally inconsistent (hello, surprise aliens!), or just plain confusing. You’ll learn how to shift from “fixing” to discovering, reverse-outline what you actually wrote, and surface what excites you most.

Along the way, they cover structure, character agency, stakes, and the emotional rollercoaster of writing — including why finishing (even a disaster) is worth celebrating. Whether it’s your first draft or fifteenth, this episode will help you find clarity, confidence, and momentum.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey everyone. Welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve. 

Lorien: And I'm Lorien McKenna. Meg, what are we talking about today? 

Meg: Today's a topic show. We're gonna be talking about – “I've got a barf draft. Now what?” 

So we're going to kind of take you through, you've quote unquote puked out your idea onto a hundred and twenty, a hundred and thirty, a hundred and fifty pages, however long it is. Or it could be 80, right? We don't know. It could be however long it is, but you got all the way to the end, which if you haven't, you don't actually have a puke draft by the way. You have something else. So this is assuming you've gotten all the way to the end of your, um, first messy, horrible, wonderful draft, and now you're looking at it and thinking, okay, now what do I do with this horrible lumpy thing that doesn't work, uh, which is very normal.

So we're gonna go through and, and we're incorporating in here some questions that you guys have asked us, um, both in our workshops as well as just on our Gmail, where you can go and ask us questions. And of course, this is assuming that you've taken an idea and written out to the three acts of, of something.

But what we get a lot of questions about, you have an idea and how do you make it into a full story? Because a barf draft doesn't necessarily mean you've got a full story, right? Lorien, it doesn't necessarily mean that. It means you got a lot of stuff, a lot of ideas, a lot of things that don't connect, a lot of things that may go in different directions.

Lorien: A lot of emotion, a lot of thematic. 

Meg: A lot of set pieces that don't connect to anything. 

Lorien: Characters coming in, drifting out, character names changing, losing track structure. 

Meg: Yeah, characters completely transforming in the middle of a scene because you realize that they need to be different. And that's all very normal and it's your brain just digging up great, great fodder for you to now use. 

Lorien: So before we get too deep into our topic, let's talk about our weeks. So my week has been very busy. I have a deadline, and I've been working about 12 to 13 hours a day, uh, to make it happen so I can deliver it today.

It's a lot of fun and I'm excited, uh, and, uh, I'm very, very tired, but very happy because I love a deadline. Meg, how was your week? 

Meg: Uh, my week is good. Something happened when I was on vacation. I wanted to bring up, I'm writing, I'm writing like a fiend like you to try to get this, uh, revision done. When I was in London, I had the great opportunity to speak at a gathering for the London Film Festival, which wasn't on, but they have an ongoing group. And it was really fun. I spoke with Joe and I did it together. And afterwards a gentleman came up to me and said, I heard you speak somewhere else, and at first I was really mad at you, but then I realized what you were telling me to do, I should do.

So, um, I wish I could remember his name because he was awesome and that he came up. And I really like hearing when things help people or crack open their heads. And he said, he had asked me the last time he saw me about voice and how do you find your voice? And I literally remember thinking when he said this, I was like, what'd I say? Because I don't know how to tell people. 

Lorien: Well this happens all the time. Like, what did I say? And you said this. I'm like, what? They said say what? He said, what? I gotta write that down. I gotta write that down. Said you're like, I said that. 

Meg: So he said, what I told him to do is go back and read every single script he's ever read, written, or every script he's ever written.

And look at his three favorite films and see if he could see similarities in emotional thematic, or, and he did. And he said, at first it was shocking. And he was really mad because it was so clear what it was that he was repeating in every screenplay. And that, and he suddenly realized, no, but that is my voice.

Like his voice was coming from that, and he's like, it changed how I write. It completely changed how I write. So I wanted to share that because I gave him good advice at some point, so I thought I better give it again. So if you're struggling to say, what is my voice? Go look at what you've written and see if you can see the similarities. Can you see what's coming forward, and even just an emotional thematic, what you're caring about emotionally can start to help you dig into your voice.

Lorien: Let’s get into it. 

Meg: Let's get into it!

You know, the first thing is to recognize that you don't have a full story. You don't have a story yet. You've got an idea. You've got a pile of situations, and that's okay because that's what a draft is for, is just to pull it all up. But to get to the idea, the full story, we'll take you through some things and what we're talking about in your barf draft is the things to help you get it to a story, right?

Lorien: Right. 

I think the most important thing to start out with when you have finished a draft is that you finished a draft. Celebrate that moment. I have a hundred and whatever pages of a feature, I did it. The best thing about it is that it exists and that's not a way to diminish it in any way. That is, it exists.

You put all these ideas out there and characters and your ideas, all the things Meg was just talking about, and it's there, and so now you have something to work with and something to respond to. And you can look at it in a couple different ways. One is, okay, I'm now, I'm gonna adapt this group of words and pages into something that I want or an idea, a story gonna work on it. I feel like for me, looking at it and going, “How am I gonna fix this?” doesn't help me. 

Meg: No, that's not, yeah, I agree. Fixing it is not really the mindset I would take to a barf draft. Um, it is literally just, uh, information and ideas. It's a stewing pot of ideas. That's all it is. It just, you brought it up. I always love what you say, Lorien, which is the first thing you do is make a list of what you like. 

Lorien: Yes.

Meg: Beause fixing it immediately puts you in the mindset of “it doesn't work.” It's awful. And now we're go going down the awful train. It's broken. It's a broken train. Like none of that's really gonna help you.

Lorien: Yeah. And I think too, printing it out. If you're okay with that or even putting in Final Draft and finding a way to read the script and physically note what you love or like that's good. Like circling it. Because that can help reveal, um, like for example, I had a writer do this once and she came back and said, I notice that I love everything except for the main character.

Meg: That's so good.

Lorien: It reveals what needs to be brought up to the level of what you love or what you're, you need to refocus on as opposed to, like you said, Meg, like fixing. Because it's not broken. 

Meg: Because it's not a thing. And it wasn't intended to be a thing that, it wasn't intended to be a completed, finished story.

That is not what a barf draft is. It can never be that. It was intended to just dig around and bring some stuff up. Yes. So saying what you love, what you like, what's okay. I like this. It could be better, but there's something in here that's good to know. There's something bubbling here that you like. You might find out I like everybody, the main character.

Do you have the wrong main character? Have you split the main character into many parts? Like that's all, it's all just information to have. I wouldn't necessarily do this with someone else. A barf draft to me is not something you're handing to another person to quote unquote get notes. It's a very personal, almost journaling kind of experience.

So I think this is between you and you, figuring out what you like. If you have somebody, a super, super best friend in the world who will read anything for you and you need to talk out loud, you could do that. Another thing that I do is if this helps people who, um, process verbally out loud is.

You could go, you don't have to have your friend read it, but you could go have lunch with them and say, I did a barf draft. Here's the stuff I really like about it. Here's the stuff that wasn't quite working, but I feel like there's something in there. And so now I'm thinking about this, if you can verbally process it with somebody, but I don't know that you have to have them read the whole thing.

And sometimes the other thing I do after a barf draft, after giving it some space is I literally will talk with somebody or just do it myself on a piece of paper or on the computer. What do I remember? 

Lorien: Oh, you mean you put it away and – 

Meg: Like literally, if I don't look at it. What do I remember now? If you are a glutton for punishment and anxiety addicted, you might just remember all the bad shit.

Okay, well that's what you remember. But really, what do you remember? I remember this didn't work and that didn't work, but I really kind of remember this set piece. I, it was thrilling to write this, that piece. I enjoyed writing this thing. I really love that moment when, just from your memory. So I think either can work, you could do it first from memory, then open the script and go through like Lorien said, and start noting it.

Um, because I think both things tell you different things. Um, the other thing is often when I've done a barf draft, and by the way, sometimes barf drafts for me are outlines, um, they can, they don't, I don't wanna say they have to be 120 page script. I would like you guys to make the 120 page script because I think a lot of you don't have enough practice.

But for the pros out there, sometimes you've done it on a board or an outline and you already have the skillset to kind of barf it out that way. But what I will immediately think is like, is this a feature? Is this TV? Like, first of all, you, for me, you gotta go. I go way up. Like, what is this? I thought it was a TV show.

Is it a TV show? Shit, it might actually be a feature or I thought this was a feature, but it's 500 pages. I think it's a TV show. 

Lorien: So I struggle with that one because I will start out with a great idea concept, love it, love my characters, and then I come up with 13 different ways to tell that story.

Well, what if this, what if it's a TV show? What if it's a feature? What if it's. Um, well, what if the characters are realigned this way? Or what if the setup is this way? I get very caught in that part of it. Hmm. So asking is this a TV show or a feature can be really dis it can derail me. So I think it's important to understand what your individual process is, what your habits are, what works for you and what doesn't work for you.

So what doesn't work for me is, is this a feature or a TV show I have to commit? Okay, it's a feature. Then I have to figure out how to tell that story as a feature and what I need to do to make that work. Otherwise, I'll just sit there in some weird spin cycle, not doing it. 

Meg: Um, yes, if you're gonna use that question as avoidance to move forward and just spin around, then don't do it for the writers out there who that doesn't happen and it actually helps you to say.

You know what, this engine feels more like a TV show that could go on for five years and it just keeps, in a weird way, repeating, but in a good way. Like, I love it. They're episodes. Holy shit. That's good to know. Mm-hmm. Or, oh, shit, there, this idea peters out because it's actually a feature and it wants to end, it wants to close, it wants to finish, and it's a lot of behavior versus dialogue, whatever.

So, uh, you know, so for me, the way to know if you're, if that question doesn't derail you, uh, then really looking at the engine, right? Like, does this idea, it's three acts. First of all, if it's only two acts, you immediately know I have a short film, right? So you look at your ax, and by that I literally mean look at the ax.

Like if you had to take your barf draft and lay down where the end of act one is, where's the midpoint? And you might not know, but just from the barf draft, if you had to just do a 30,000 foot, like what is this? Does it feel like a feature or, and again, if it's derailing you don't do that and skip this step.

Right? Right. Say, I'm committing. 

Lorien: One way you can investigate this is if you've started with an outline and you wrote a draft to the outline is then take what you have in the script and outline what you have. 

Meg: Right. Which you could do, even if you didn't outline first, like take your barf draft and say, I'm gonna now create an outline from this of what I actually have. 

Lorien: This can actually be helpful too, after you get notes from someone because you might be remembering a different version of it. So the notes will be like, wait, that's what I did. But going back to the actual script, reading the whole thing again, which. Can be strange. Painful. Yes. Strange. Painful. I didn't wanna go painful. I went strange. 

Meg: It can be painful because you're like, oh my God, I thought this was a great scene. Yes. But now I'm reading it. 

Lorien: But when you are outlining it, it's to do that, like removing yourself from what it is. Somehow you're just looking at it and outlining it. You're not changing or rewriting, it's what do I have?

And that can help you do what Meg's saying, which is, do I have three acts or kind of three acts, or is there a midpoint or is there potential for three acts?

Meg: Like I didn't actually write three acts, but I kind of see what a third act could be. Or, or no, this is, uh, this just keeps going on and on and on, and I want.

And it has a beautiful show engine. I can't believe it, but if I actually look at it, it does, uh, have the kind of irreconcilable conflict inside my character. With her, with her. So you can look at that. Again, if it takes you off course, don't do it. 

The other thing you can do, and these are just grab bag things. If it doesn't feel right to you, it doesn't feel right to your brain, then don't do it. There's no rules people. The other thing you can do that I tend to do, because I used to be a producer, so my brain does work this way, is I'll be like, okay, I've got this thing. I thought it was a rom-com for 20 year olds. It isn't because the tone shifted. An alien walked in. And what genre is this now? Like of the stuff I like. Right? Not just what it has to be. because there's no shoulds. This is art people of the stuff I like. I didn't even like any of the rom-com stuff I wrote and I didn't have fun writing it. But I really had fun when the alien walked in and suddenly it became an alien space love story set like Camelot, but in Mars. And like it just took, that's what I actually like about it. That's what jazzes me. It doesn't matter if I wanted to write a romcom 20-year-old. 

Lorien: And if you wrote Camelot on Mars, I would throw you a party. 

Meg: Okay, so I'm doing that. Nobody steal that incredibly amazing idea. 

Lorien: So outside of what you talk about, you wanna do, right? The like, subtle, you know, like, like, well I gotta earn money. 

Meg: So, because here's the thing, like you might say, well I wanna write the Camelot on Mars because I, but the truth is I need for my job to write a romcom because, so there's different things here.

Is this a barf draft for yourself? Then you write the Camelot on Mars and say, this is the genre, this is the audience. There are some great set pieces in here. What would the poster be? You can do an outside in immediately to see, just test it out. And if you don't know, you don't know, but suddenly you might have a tagline like, who knows, right?

Because you're just going towards what you like. Now, if it's an assignment, obviously you cannot do that, obviously. You have to be like, I'm gonna take all the alien shit out. I dunno where it came from. I was having a mental breakdown. I'm gonna put it over here. Okay, what do I have left? Did I like any of the rom-com stuff that I wrote?

And often at that point, honestly, you have to go back and be like, why did I take this job? Why did I wanna do this job? What did I originally feel inspired for? Because in the barf draft, I lost it. Which is better to know in a barf draft honestly, than draft five. So then you've gotta start digging down into really what, why you wanted to start this in the beginning.

It can go all the way back to the day. You had that idea walking the dog and what was happening and how did it feel in your body and what, what was the blue sky and how did the blue sky, why did it leave? Why didn't it come out in the barf draft? Just why didn't it that? Don't ask it like a judgment. Ask it with curiosity.

Well, because your shoulds came in and you started thinking about the class you took that said you should do this. And you started thinking about, you had lunch with that executive and they said, romcoms now deemed to do this. And you started doing a lot of putting stuff on and lost the kind of heart and spark of what you wanted to do.

That's okay. That happens all the time. It happens to me every day. So then you have to go back and you can either keep kind of the, if you're intuiting, like I think that is the right structure, but I've lost the spark. Then you go to spark digging, right? So a lot of this investigative work and very personal work, very normal.

I even do that when I'm outlining big giant puke on a board. It's just like, sometimes I'm like, wait, what? What is the movie? What, you know, I go to outside in to keep reminding myself, this is a movie, this is the audience. Don't lose track of what you're doing. This is the genre. And then try to balance that with the spark digging, which to me is the whole ball game.

All right, Lorien, go ahead. 

Lorien: I wanted to just mention, uh, I do barf drafts for TV too when I'm writing a spec. Um, not necessarily for work because I've had to write a story area and an outline, and it's very clear what the parameters are. Um, but when I'm sitting down to write something and I have an idea or concept and I just wanna write, you know, without an outline, which is always dangerous, but what will happen is for a 30 minute show, I might write 45 pages or even 60, because what I end up doing is introducing things that are supposed to be introduced on episode five, or even in season two.

Like I get really deep into it and it, it jumps ahead a lot in it. So like, usually my last. They usually 25 and on pages are world building bigger questions and things. So I have to sit down and, and ask myself what is actually in the pilot. And that kind of stuff informs the show so that when I go to pitch it, I can understand that.

But it is, um, I generate too much material because I'm writing a season of TV in one pilot episode, which is something I have to be very careful about. Um, and so I have too many sparks sometimes when I'm writing a TV episode. So I have to sort of go through it all and figure out which of these things is actually in my pilot, but then also what is my pilot actually about?

Like I might start with a, it's a romantic comedy and end with a spies thriller and a dead guy in a freezer. And then I'm like, okay, well what was the show I need to be writing? was it the one I intended to, or was it where I got to? Um, and hint spoiler, it's the dead guy in the freezer. Always. 

Meg: Yeah. Shocker. That's just a shocker. Shocker. That it would be the dead guy in the freezer. 

Lorien: So I have only 30 pages or 60 pages to tell a complete story, and I write too many. And then as a feature, I struggle to finish act three when I'm barf drafting.

Meg: But you must. I also wanna say that even when you're, let's say you've barf drafted out, you've outlined your, you've written a first draft, you've gotten notes.

You could even be on a second draft when you're in drafts. Uh, I find that for myself, I get so sometimes I do outside in too much, and I get so into this has gotta move. This has gotta, this is too complicated. It's gotta go. It's gotta go. We've gotta move forward. We gotta get to the highest. We gotta get to the thing.

Where's the set piece? We gotta go? What's the world? Have I defined the world? Like all that stuff is important. Don't get me wrong. But then we got the note, I just don't care enough about the characters. And you're like, oh, because I was so involved in the mechanics and the logic and the this and the that, and I thought I had the character stuff in there.

Honestly I did. But people weren't getting it. So what we've done right now is I was just like, it's all in the first act because you have to attach to them in the first act, right? So at least in terms of where we have to start, the truth is right now our first act, when I threw everything, I could think of every character thing I could, I've thrown in there and, and rewriting too.

But it also is just saying, okay, let's extend this scene. Like instead of him just taking off, what does he do? Like what does the relationship do? We've changed some relationships, but you know, the first act is 38 pages, which is 10, 10 pages too long. But what I'm gonna do, do, Joe and I, if we're brave enough, is I'm gonna send that 38 page, uh, first act to my manager.

Because I, we need outside, like he's gonna, he, I hope what he's gonna say is, you need this, this, and this. You don't need all that other stuff. I hope, right? Because I can't see it anymore. I can't. I, because I love them so much that I already get it. So I need somebody who to help. So you can do that too. If you've got a barf draft and you've rewritten your first act, but it's still too long and your brain is on fire because it's too long and you didn't get to the world and just write everything and give it to a friend, give it to another writer and have a conversation about it.

That's what I'm gonna do. We'll see. I'll let you know next week. 

Lorien: Good. 

I did wanna respond to that really quick before we move on to the next one. It is a constant battle. To like, I'm focusing on plot mechanics, I'm focusing on emotion, I'm focusing on character, I'm focusing on theme. And to be able to synthesize that all at once can be, I don't know if that's possible. Some writers must be able to do it, but it's okay if you get distracted. 

Meg: Most can't. It's why you're writing 12 drafts, people. 

Lorien: And I think it's important to talk about what a draft is too. Like I, we've gotten this question a bit and I just saw one come up on the Facebook group that was like, some people say you have to write 10, excuse me.

Some people say you have to write 10 drafts or 20 drafts or two or seven. Uh, and sort of like, what is a draft, practically speaking, right? So it's different for everybody. I think. Like I, I do a save as every single day. I am working on something, so it's hard for me to. Quantify or qualify how many drafts I've done as something because I don't open up an entire full document and work on the whole thing.

If I worked on it today, I save it as today's date with a note at the top of what I worked on, and then I will keep working on that same thing the next day. So I don't know how many drafts I write. 

Meg: Well, for me, that's not a draft, that's versions. That's you're writing a draft and, but you're saving it so that in case you change something, you wanna go back.

Like I get the idea the same. Mm-hmm. Yeah. From, and again, it depends on what you want it to be. Mine is, did you get to the third act? Did you finish and did you say the end? And you maybe even in that draft, you've gone back now and read through it and, and noodled and revised and switched and, okay, I'm handing this to somebody else, to give me notes, and that is how I see a draft. 

So you are gonna do that, in my opinion, 12 to 15 times. Uh, you just are now as a pro, maybe you're gonna go a little bit faster or you have to go faster, but generally, yeah, it just takes some time, which seems very intimidating, right? 

Lorien: I barfed out the script. Now I have to rewrite this and give this to 15 people to read and give me feedback. It sounds terrifying to me too. 

Meg: And it is. There's no, it's terrifying. I'm sorry, but it is welcome to being an artist. Yeah. That is what we all have to do. You have to do it. And nobody dies. You aren't gonna die. Even if they all hate it. You don't die. You just go, okay, I have work to do. And then you make sure you give it to somebody who's your biggest cheerleader.

And loves you and can see good no matter what, you have to give it to that person. Especially if you're on the first draft after a barf draft, you better be giving it to, not to 15 people. You better be giving it to five people who love you and think you're a great writer and we wanna help you. And they're coming at it with the right intention.

Okay, so let's just talk about, um, you've got your lump now. Let's talk about craft stuff that you would kind of think about or questions you could be asking yourself. So the first one that I, you should know your, as a writer, and if you're super emerging, you will learn this, but I know where my blind spots are, so I always ask that first.

Mm-hmm. Which is, I don't know why. because I talk about it all the time. And yet when my brain goes to do it, it doesn't do it, which is the agency and drive sitting in the main character. 

Lorien: What does my main character want? 

Meg: That always I – you know, because even I can give them this big plot goal, and I suddenly read my barf draft or the barf outline, and I'm like, wait, she's not actually doing a lot of this stuff.

She's strategically listening, reacting, but she's, she's reacting, but she's not actually creating the plot shit that is always in my barf draft. It's just how my brain was trained as a young woman in the eighties and nineties. So, uh, it was protective. So that's first, first place I go is what is the narrative drive and what do they want?

And what I'm finding lately in a lot of scripts – what are the stakes if they don't get what they want? That is really up and walking around in the world right now, and it's in every script, and it should always be a question you ask, but right now you better really ask it, which is if they don't get what they want, does anything happen?

Physically in the plot to them, maybe just emotionally, but are the emotional stakes feel life and death? Do they feel like, boy, we really don't want that to happen to her. Right? But please give them some sort of plot stakes. You know, I've talked about this. Jodi used to say, if you can just get on a bus, if your character just can get on a bus at any point in this story and leave, you don't have stakes.

You don't have, you haven't locked them in. Um, so really I go to look at what's the narrative drive? What's the want in the plot? People, we keep having our workshops and we keep having people tell us all the character internal wants, but we want to know the plot.

Meg: This is so critical in TV, you have to have stakes. I need to come back every week and like, oh no, what's gonna happen? And even if it's a small movement, and Meg, you said to me a while ago, I talked about this on the show before, I was talking about a feature I needed to rewrite and I was pitching all this stuff to you and trying to talk it through to you.

And you said, Lorien lava is not plot. Because I'd gotten so hung up on why I'd wanted to write this project and what it was about to me personally, and this character's internal motivation, like why? I knew the why, but I didn't know the what. So it was like, okay, I know why she's going to do something, but there wasn't this strong enough.

What is she gonna do about it that felt, uh, true to her? Which felt, and it was scary for me to even think about it, uh, because I was writing a 16-year-old girl and I'm remembering how it felt to be a 16-year-old girl where. Even if I wanted something, I didn't have the agency to, to do it. And so then I was like, okay, well what's the wish fulfillment of it?

Lorien: What is the wish to fulfill that? Like, what do I wish I could have done? How do I wish I could have exerted control if I were this girl? What, what could I actually do given my skillset and my motivation and the stakes around it?

Meg: Because the triangle is for the plot and that your character is interacting with the plot or creating the plot, I should say, not interacting it's want – conflict to the want and the stakes if you don't win or get what you want or beat the conflict or whatever, right? So want stakes, conflict, right? 

So, and it sounds so simple and yet it's funny how our brains just to begin to fuzz out when it comes to this. Now the want, the stakes and the conflict are the things that are driving out the lava are the things that are going to change the main character or help them claim their power or whatever it is. You want the arc to come because they have a want, which enacts a plot, something comes in conflict to that and there are stakes – real world stakes, plot stakes if they fail. And because of those stakes, that's why they have to keep going. Because this is why stakes work. Because if at any moment they can be like, you know, I don't wanna do this, they don't have to learn anything. They don't have to arc. But if there are stakes to them bailing, they can't bail. I mean, think about what's changed you in your life because you couldn't bail, you had to stay in. So guess what? You're gonna transform because you're gonna put your feet to the fire. Right?

So people have asked, well, how do I learn about wants or stakes? This is how you learn about it. You learn about it by picking your five favorite movies. Or the five movies that are in the genre you're doing right, and you watch them and you identify the want, the stakes and the conflict, and watch how it moves in.

How is it expressed in the film? What is the character's behavior? How is that reflecting it? How are the relationships affecting it? How are they changing in the structure? Just watch it because you're gonna be shocked how much, and if you're watching the same director, you're gonna see they're doing the same thing over and over.

Mm-hmm. But that's a whole side thing. So. You. because once a director or a writer finds their thing, they tend to do it over and over. Right? So, uh, you've got to, there's no shortcut to, you just have to learn it by watching it in other things that you think work and, and how it works in those things. But want just know it has to be something external in the plot.

And the thing I've learned in the last five years is because I've gotten this note enough times, you have to care about the want. Meaning I don't care if she loses her house. Mm-hmm. Like now you could create a want that I do desperately care if she loses her house like Goonies. But it's not just a given that I care about her losing her house, or I can't really care if she's nominated student president, like as a thing.

It doesn't immediately bring in a lot of emotion. Right. Losing your kid immediately shortcut emotion. Right. So it's, you have to create the want. You have to make me want it emotionally. And then in terms of the stakes, the bigger the stakes, the bigger the story. Right. It just is. 

Lorien: So we, we care about Carl's house in Up because of the sequence we saw of married life.

Meg: Exactly. 

Lorien: We saw what it means to him. We understand how attached he is to it and how he's not willing to let it go and he can't move forward. Because we saw that beautiful story, then we become attached to the house as much as he is. So we are rooting for him, even as grumpy and surly and antisocial as he is.

We're like, this guy needs a house. He should have it. I want him to do this ridiculous thing and go get it. 

Meg: And the stakes are, if you don't do that, they're gonna rip it down. Like think about it. It's not just, it's not just a story of a guy who gets an idea and puts balloons on his house, they're going to rip it down.

They're creating so much conflict to shove that guy literally off into the sky, right? And then the conflict comes with him in the form of this kid, and then it arrives in the form of Munce. So the conflict is somebody who's chewing the exact opposite want of your want, right? 

I want to rob the bank. I want to stop the robbers robbing the bank. And each of you are getting big emotional identity things out of getting it right. So in terms of finding the most juicy conflict. The more polar opposite they are, the more naturally easy conflict it's going to be to write it, you can do it that the conflict is 10 degrees and super psychological and super passive aggressive and bubbling subtext, certain kind of movie and you better study it.

But it's super high math. So if you're an emerging writer, my advice is do something easier. 

Lorien: So here is something that I have seen a lot of, which is, this is a story about a woman figuring out what she wants and she's her own villain. So that it's not even until like page 78, when she's like, you know what I want? I wanna rob a bank. It's like, no, what? Let's just. 

Meg: it's kind of chickening out. I know that our lives, especially as women and certain for men, but I'm just saying, especially as women, our lives feel like that. That we wake up one day and realize shit, I was my own worst enemy. But it's, again, we're not saying you can't write that movie.

Lorien: Let's see that on page five or seven or 10. 

Meg: I feel like there's some sort of reluctance to activate the character. Because you're afraid of the power of going for what you want. So as a writing exercise, if you have that, I would say on page five she wakes up and by the end of act one, she's gonna rob the bank. She's gotta pay. Now what are you gonna do? Yep. Because she still has things to learn. Everybody wakes up in act one a little bit in order to have the want. That's part of act one is waking up either. Mostly. Usually. Because you're forced to because of such the, what's happening. 

Lorien: I think it's, the difference is the learning, the when it's not until page 75 or whatever that it's like, oh, I wanna rob the bank. It's, uh, the learning comes from the robbing the bank so that the discovery of the want, the real true want. What she's, what she's been missing about herself is because she had that want to rob the bank. So starting her out with, I'm just on this discovery and resisting everything isn't appealing to watch necessarily.

Yeah. Um, but a character who has to learn that what she really wants is to, uh, set up her own business somewhere. These are bad. I know. But, um, uh, but she has to, wa has to try to rob the bank. Before that in order to learn. 

Meg: And I feel like sometimes we do that and, and it can absolutely happen in a barf draft because your brain is trying to figure out who she is. Yes. Why is she this way? It's totally fine. If in the barf draft she has on page 70, you're like, oh shit, she wants to rob a bank. Like that's what a barf draft is for. Right? But now your first draft is, okay, be brave. Bring it up to act one. What happens?

This is a writing exercise. You have to write the whole draft. But I think sometimes I do that because I'm exploring the character, but also because I feel like, and because I've done the opposite in the current draft with Joe, where I just went really fast and just didn't attach you to her want. Do you know what I'm saying?

Because I was like, let's get the plot started. Let's go, let's go, let's go. That's, I wanna rob the bank. So this is the, this is the high art and this is the skill of writing. You have to in act one before she decides to rob the bank attach me. What's happening internally that I think that's a good want.

Lorien: Well, what problem does it solve? Right? The why. So I am losing my house. I am losing everything. My kids don't wanna live with me anymore. So my idea is, okay, if I can get enough money to keep my house, my kids will stay with me. So I don't have any way of getting, uh, uh, the money, but you know what? I come from a kind of a crime family, so I'm gonna have to go back to the life and I'm gonna have to rob this bank in order to get my money.

Meg: And it doesn't hurt that the bank's owned by my ex-husband, right? Like, you know, I mean like you can do all kinds of stuff if you want. 

Lorien: I just think it's what problem does the want solve is the critical piece here, which is the discovering what you really want thing. Right? Right. In the course of robbing the bank, going back to my life of my mafia family again, here I go, dead bodies in the freezer, going back to my mafia family, getting their help, which is something I've been hiding from everybody and I'm ashamed of it. But I'm gonna rob this bank that I want. 

Meg: What are the stakes? This is what I was gonna say. Yes. What are the stakes to the problem if you don't solve it right now? The problem in act one, if you, so there's stakes to the problem and there's stakes to the want to solve the problem. They both have stakes. The problem is if I, I need to rob the bank because…

Lorien: Ooh, my family kidnapped my kids and I have to get my kids back, so I have to rob the bank in order to get my kids back. Right. 

Meg: But I can't tell my husband that that's my family who, because if he ever finds out that this is my actual family, he'll take my kids away from me, they took my kids away from me. He's gonna know I'm a mafioso and I've hidden it this whole time. So the stakes are, I'm going to die from the crazy mob boss who took my kids as the competition to my father who's getting back at my father by taking my kids. So there's huge stakes and clearly easy want taking kids as usual for a woman.

Super easy. Uh, but the stakes of, there's gotta be stakes to the current problem too. Like, there's a problem in the marriage, there's a problem. 

Lorien: She's lying, right? She's keeping a secret because of shame.

Meg: And in terms of conflict, because we did get the question, how do you get more juicy conflict?

I mean, juicy, such a great word. I would say that. Finding the conflict that digs up the most in your main character and is the hardest thing you can possibly think of for them? I would think the most juicy conflict, you can't even, you don't even know the answer to it. When you start, you're like, I don't know how she's gonna get over this.

This guy is the biggest thing. How, how are these kids gonna take on that guy? Like, it should feel impossible. The more impossible it feels, the more into the movie I am. Right. Uh, so the juiciest conflict to me is impossible. It's somehow emotionally reflecting the main character, or at least pushing their buttons pretty badly.

Um, it's the last person they would wanna go into conflict with. Um, now again, that doesn't mean it's a mustache twirling villain. You know, the competing mafia might be a woman who works at Sotherby's and nobody knows, and she's absolutely perfect and she will kill you. Like you can mask up that antagonist, whoever you want. Right? And remember, juicy conflict, they have their own, they have their own reason for what they're doing, and they believe they're right. And it should be. 

Lorien: They don't just exist to get in the way of the other character. 

Meg: No. They have their own plan. They have their own arcs and they believe they're right. It should be kind of logical. 

Lorien: They have a problem too. 

Meg: They have a problem too. And their, and their stakes are high. Give your antagonist high stakes. Boy, you've got a pop in the movie now because she has high stakes. If she doesn't get it, the antagonist has high stakes.

If they don't get it, we're, you know, we're starting to really have a grid fun, um, popcorn movie or energetic movie. Okay. Within all of this, of course, I always go to my character arc. I look at what is she learning at the end of act two. That's the theme. So I might do a whole pass on that barf draft of which of these scenes has anything to do with a theme that I think this is like.

This isn't even about betrayal. So either you have the wrong theme, which has happened, right? Where, or it's evolving, right? We thought it was about perfection, but now it's not about perfection. We're going deeper and deeper. So sometimes in your barf draft or in a, a very, very rough draft that you've done based on like a second or third draft, but it's super rough.

You might have come upon a scene that you didn't even know was gonna be in there, and it's super emotional to you. Well, what's happening is thematically the gods and the muses are starting to allow you into the most vulnerable stuff you actually wanna talk about. And the perfection, or the other word was just the path to get you down into this more vulnerable thing.

And that's very, very normal as you're writing, um, drafts. Um, so there's that. You wanna look at your theme, right, in terms of how is it moving, what is it right now in your barf draft, and it's okay from barf draft to first draft. Just pick a word. The stuff I really like is about betrayal. The stuff I really like is about trust.

The stuff I really like is about mm-hmm. That's okay. It's only, it's an early draft. That's good. Just do that. 

Lorien: And when you're writing TV and theme, it's more, uh, for me, uh, uh, a battle between two things, right? So I am, because my character is never really going to learn the thing that she would learn if I'd put her in a feature, right?

It's a constant, um, back and forth. So is it between, uh, family and career? So it's gonna be a constant struggle, whatever circumstances I put her in and that she's never really going to learn the answer to that, uh, she might move forward or back, which is how I get from season to season. So when you're pitching a TV show or talking about a TV show and theme.

Uh, for me, and correct me if I'm wrong here, Meg, for me, it's more about like, this is the journey. This is the struggle, these are the conflicts that are gonna keep coming up and keep presenting themselves. Like, Hey, have you figured this out yet? Have you figured this out yet? Oh, look, here's a whole bunch of new circumstances that are gonna fuck you up.

Right? But it's the same constant conversation. Love or career in whatever that means. Love or be a family. Love of romantic love. 

Meg: Yeah. It could also be, you know, if you think about The Studio, he's a, he's a studio head who loves movies and wants to make art and art versus commerce. Good luck. Yeah, good luck.

Like if you had just put some kind of mustache twirling guy in there, he doesn't care about anybody. You don't have any show, because the show is the tension and then the how is the game that has to be played, right? Mm-hmm. So the game is getting played differently every week, but the tension remains the same, which is.

I just wanna be on set making movies that are good. Well, guess what? You're the studio head. You don't get to be on set. Nobody wants you there. Like, they just are exploring all the ways that this doesn't work. And, and he sabotages himself. Un, un unknowingly. Um, it'll be interesting to see in a second season do they shift that?

Has he evolved? But the first season, that is the fulcrum upon which it's all turning. Right? So do you have that in your show? That kind of fulcrum that's gonna keep, you know, irreconcilable, right? Isn't that how ha He calls it, it's like an i it's irreconcilable in him that he wants to make big movies. 

Lorien: The pilot is the show. So you need to see that in your, that's what you're looking at in a pilot barf draft. Is the conflict of the TV show in the pilot, is that it? Like look at The Studio pilot. He wants to be the studio head but he cares about art and he thinks he can do it. And then we're off. So again, it has to be in the pilot. 

Meg: Yes, the pilot is the show. So, and so you're gonna go through and, and just in terms of a barf draft, you know, it doesn't, it's not like, well it might be, you might be so inspired after your barf draft, you're just jumping in and quickly outlining and having a blast.

Um, but let's assume you're not, let's assume you're like, I don't know. There's stuff I like, but there's stuff I don't know. I think that sometimes the worry is I'll waste my time. I don't wanna waste my time ending up doing another bar draft. And then I'm like, well, guess what? 

Lorien: Or what if I'm cutting something that's actually good and I don't know.

Meg: But you can go back. Yeah. Like none of it is forever and none of it's final. But what you might wanna do is just do some writing exercises. So instead of putting it onto your brain, okay, now I'm gonna go do a first draft. Mm-hmm. Maybe that's too big. Maybe instead you wanna do, like, I'm gonna do an exercise on belief systems.

Like what are the belief systems of my characters and how are they shifting? I'm gonna do stakes today, today. Give a different writing, uh, assignment to yourself or writing exercise every day. So one day, do character, uh, belief systems. One day do theme. One day do and belief systems would equal arc. One day do stakes.

One day do conflict. Maybe your first day you should do agency and want, but that's just because it's the be the, the drum that we're beating right now. Just do, just fuck around given what's come up in the barf draft. And this might be where you just do it from memory too, right? Like, you don't have to go back into that barf draft and go around in it.

You can just be like, okay, it's in my head. I, I got it out right. But I have it in my body and my storytelling. So what would I do today? Today I would say, okay, I wanna do this exercise. It's gonna be thematically about betrayal. The, the antagonist is gonna be her brother, which I didn't know until I did my barf draft.

Uh, the stakes are the loss. Of her life. I'm gonna really amp up the stakes. What happens? What if she dies? Right? And her problem is this, like everything we're talking about, just do a version. 

Lorien: Mm-hmm. 

Meg: Knowing it probably won't work, all of it won't work, but something might work something. Now you might say, okay, if all that stuff I tried, the only thing that worked was I really like her want.

Okay, tomorrow. Is there another theme in here that felt better with this want? If I'm really honest with myself, maybe it's about actually redemption. Like she's really done something wrong. Okay there. What did she do wrong? What problem did it cause? How is she her belief system kind of kicking it under the rug and she's pretending she doesn't see it.

You know, just have fun for week. 

Lorien: And this is about scene work.  

Meg: For me it could be, well see, for me, it wouldn't be for me, it would be, oh, like laying it out and saying, okay, like she's doing this. And I would just be talking to myself almost like a journal. Like, okay, so this is what it is, as if I was in a room at Pixar and I had to pitch it. Right? Yeah. Like I don't get to do it. I don't get to pitch a scene at Pixar. I get to go, okay, listen, what if there were these things called core memories? I know it's crazy, but like if we had core memories, then she could take it with her and now she's gotta get them back.

So how would that work? Who would be with her? And I would just, you just have to start pitching it. Mm-hmm. So my brain is very much around pitch a versions. Pitch a version. Pitch a version. Mm-hmm. If your brain doesn't work that or other people's brains don't work that, I'm just saying one way is I just start pitching.

Now scenes will arrive and maybe I'll quick go write it because I'll be like, Ooh, that's a good one. I don't even know where that came from and I need to write it. Or there's a big blank. I'd like, I don't know. I don't know who's with her. Well write some scenes. Where is she? Who, who's standing next to her? Who's the biggest problem for her? 

Lorien: Uh, so my brain, because of Pixar works in pitching and I agree with you in order to generate ideas. But what I find is that I'm really good at coming up with like the pitch. Here's what the pitch is. Um, it's. But unless I put it into a scene and actually see my character in tone, mood, what she's doing, all the things, it just sits there in the idea phase.

So I have to actually sit down and be like, okay, so she's trapped in the bathroom and there are vampires outside whether or not there are vampires in my movie or not. Just to figure out what she would do in a life and life and death stake situation because my, maybe my stakes aren't big enough and I have no idea what she'd actually do.

Meg: So you could decide today I'm gonna go splunking some more. Mm-hmm. I did my barf draft, but I need to do more splunking. Because I don't know. So I'm gonna write new scenes, I'm gonna put her in different situations. Mm-hmm. At some point you're gonna have to be like, okay, I got a lot of information.

What's the movie? What is the want, the stakes, the world, all of that engine stuff we've talked about. There's a whole episode on story engine –

Lorien: Mafia, vampire's, dead body in the freezer, who robs a bank. I got it. 

Meg: No, you don't. 

Lorien: This is the movie we're telling. 

Meg: We've got elements. You have elements. 

Lorien: No, no. This is a movie we're working on it. 

Meg: You have elements, you have elements, uh, because then you have to talk about her emotional journey and why is this all happening to her? And because then it's one. So that's just one way I do it, um, in terms of, of what to do with your barf draft. Um, and then the other thing is, and I guess this is what you're saying, Lorien.

Let's just say, you say, okay, I'm, I've pitched this idea of what this story is. Mm-hmm. To myself, and I have the world, I have the theme, I have the exterior want, I have the conflict, I have the stakes, and I have the main relationship. I need to have at least those to start. Then I, there's a whole other step now of execution.

Mm-hmm. Right? Even if you've done a whole outline off of your barf draft and created a whole new thing, which is what you will do. Right. You know the genre, you know the tone, you know all that stuff. Well, the, the how is a whole other thing because you are still, in a weird way gonna be writing a barf draft because to find the perfect how can take a long time and there's still discovery going on.

So don't worry if the execution. It doesn't feel perfect or right at this early stage, and honestly at any stage because you just have to play a little bit. Like I literally wrote the most cliche way of introducing him I could think of, because I could not think of a way to introduce him. So I was just like, okay, let's just do this.

Because I gotta get going here. I gotta get a draft out so you can come back later when you know him better, when you've, when you've got this new version out to say, yeah, what are other ways? Or, you know, this cliche version kind of works, but it's just cliche. So what's my twist on it? Why is it different in this day and age than you would've seen in The Sting or whatever, right?

So don't be afraid. Once you've taken your barf draft, you've done your writing exercises, you've done all the stuff we're talking about, you've outlined a new version, just still let it suck if you need to, it's okay. Let the execution be whatever it is. And if you're writing. From your outline and you're realizing the execution isn't working.

I think if you've already done a barf draft, you can stop now and be like, it doesn't work. Shit, this outline doesn't work. Holy shit, I gotta stop because I barfed it out. I'm kind of still barfing out this new version, but it's not working. So go back to your outline. What is not working? Why? Oh, because over here she didn't do this.

Or the problem's not big enough. So you will have, I think once you've gotten past some early drafts, more conversations with yourself as you start to write your outline into execution, which is what you are saying, Lorien, you need to actually see them behave and do it. 

Lorien: It's an execution for me because it is there where I actually get to see her moving and doing.

I get some things to watch out for, uh, based on personal experience. I can get very caught up in the ideas. And then I am afraid to write them down because that they won't be the same or they won't be good, or that in execution it will fall apart and I'll have to keep writing it a million times. Um, uh, what I had another thing that I was gonna talk about, the thing to watch out for, um, you were talking about drafts doing it, perfectionism, anxiety, execution, you know.

Meg: I mean, we can talk about how to brainstorm execution ideas. We did get that question. Mm-hmm. So let's say you've got your outline, but you don't know how to introduce him. You don't know how, you know, what's a great character introduction? Here's the thing, just write a lot of them like in a row and just let them start drafting off of each other until I'm like, that's good enough for now.

Like, let's just go. So my way of brainstorming how to execute things is just. Letting it flow and just having some fun with it and knowing I'm probably gonna toss this out and it doesn't matter. Or another brainstorming idea is how. What is the worst case scenario for your character? Like, what would be the worst thing that could happen right now?

What would be the hardest thing that could happen right now? What would be the most shocking thing that could happen right now? Those are all good. In terms of physical execution, who's around her? Where is she? What is her goal on the scene? Uh, we, I think we talked about this last week in terms of, um, our wonderful writer took an acting class to learn this.

Like, what if, what in this scene does she want in the scene? To get across. And how could it, what's the most fun way she could do this? What's the most kind of, oh my gosh, she's so brave. Or, oh my gosh, she's, she's actually doing it. Or, I don't even know what she's doing, but it looks really dangerous. Right?

Why is she repelling down the, down the cliff? Right. Um, so I think you gotta push the brainstorm to me of execution is how far can you push it? And towards fun, towards active, active, active behavior. If you couldn't use any dialogue, what would you do in that scene? Is another great way to brainstorm ideas for execution.

Right? Um. It's also fun if you want to and because I've learned a lot at Pixar watching other brains execute. You know, take a scene to your friends and be like, here's what I have. Tell them the story so they know what you need and just have fun, like brainstorm the shit out of it together to see how other brains, you'll learn how other brains approach something.

Um, which is a great way to start brainstorming execution. We also got a question, which I think applies to going on from your barf draft or any draft, which is how do you not get overwhelmed by it all. All the notes, all the thoughts, all the things. All the shit we just told you to do, all the story things and the exercises and the blah and the questions.

And you know, I understand you've sink into procrastination, you hide imper perfectionism, so you don't have to start your anxiety overwhelms you. Um, what do you do to do that? I, you know, I have only bad advice. Which is panic. Yeah. Because if it's due tough shit, you can't procrastinate, you can't hide in perfectionism and anxiety or no, you just gotta start.

Mm-hmm. So for me, deadlines is how I do it and I can't do it other than that. Um, or I, I just say, I'm gonna write really bad today and I just have to start. I just have to start. because I get frozen. I get frozen, literally frozen in terms of I can't write anything. I can't even open my fucking laptop because I just, I'm gonna fail.

And the expectations are too high. Everybody's expecting like, inside out, you know, 55 drafts on this first draft, uh, it's, it's too much. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Uh, sometimes for me the win is I opened my computer, I opened a document and I wrote a really bad scene today. But it's water in the. In the riverbed, having a writing partner helps a lot because you have somebody down in that procrastination, perfection, anxiety, swirl with you who may be not there, who goes, who cares?

Let's just do something. Let's just sit. I know Lorien and I have gone out for lunch when we get stuck in these places and we just talk to each other and that'll help. because you'll, you just gotta find the spark, right? And then you've gotta protect it like from the wind, right? And you've gotta get that spark back to your computer and tell all the voices in your head that are telling you to procrastinate, they're telling you you're not perfect and that you've got too much anxiety.

Oh, well back off. Today, the writer is writing, and the writer in you is not the procrastinator. It is not the perfectionist. It is not your anxiety. That is not the writer. The writer doesn't have those things. The writer is connected to the muse and the universe, and it just wants to write. So let it write, right?

If you need to do it every day, like meditation. I was thinking the other day if you, if I were taught a class, I'd be like, you have to write every day, at least 10 minutes. 

Lorien: Yeah, 10 minutes a day is doable. You can write in your car on the back of a receipt. The CVS receipts are very, very long. 

Meg: Because you've gotta get the water in the riverbed and I promise you suddenly 10 minutes is gonna turn longer and then you're gonna have like this two hour dump or like, you just have to let it come out.

So if I was teaching a class, I'd be, you have to write 10 minutes a day, get your group. Who you guys gonna verbally pitch to? I start giving assignments. Maybe it's a writing schedule. I don't do so well with those because I'm a purger, but, um. It really helps to just even do a little bit. It's amazing how much the brain will adapt.

Lorien: I think it's important to the self-awareness piece. What has worked for you in the past, not just around writing, but in your life? When have I done the thing? So deadlines or, um, when I've taken a walk, then I can come back and do it. So what are things that have helped you be successful in the past and what are things that have gotten in your way in the past or even last week?

Is it brain stuff inside your head? Is it, um, get not, do you have to take care of all the bills and household stuff in the morning so you can write in the afternoon what works for you? 

Meg: Or has the chasm opened that you're a terrible writer? You've always wanted it. Yes. You tried it and now the dream is over because you suck.

Then the answer to that is maybe or maybe not, but the writer doesn't care. Yeah. The writer doesn't care about any of that stuff. The writer just wants to write, so you write Anyways, 

Lorien: So my, yeah, I know about myself that I like to be witnessed. I like to take a class. I like to be in a group. I like to be able to just report what I've done.

That helps me. So even, you know, when I was working, when I was working, ha ha ha, I'm still working. When I had a job where I had a boss and my job was sort of mysterious and no one really knew what I did and I felt very, like I had to defend what I was doing. So I came up with a system where every week I'd be like, here are all the things I'm doing.

Here are all the things I need. So then I felt like I'm being witnessed. And so I have that system now set up where at the beginning of every week, I send an email to my manager, here's what I'm working on. Then I feel like I'm accountable. That's good. Um, I have a plan. I need this. Now, this might speak to, I can't do it on my own.

I don't care. It is what I need and what I want and what is driving me form. 

Meg: And if you want that and you don't have a manager, pick out five writer friends. Yes. Every, every Monday you're gonna text each other what you're, what you're gonna get done that week. And every Friday you gotta get on a Zoom and tell you what you did.

Yeah. And I'll tell you, you, you fuck off and don't do what you said for four times. For four weeks. That Zoom, people are gonna lovingly be like, what's going on? Are you okay? Do you need something? Do you want us to help you? Like that will really, I think, help if you, if you're feeling isolated and getting stuck in the swirl by yourself, that that helps a lot.

Lorien: Yeah. I wanna be acknowledged. I want that validation. Like all those things, whether that's. I think there's too this idea that speaks to why we're not writing or doing something that we're supposed to operate in a certain way. I should be able to just sit down and write and not worry about performance or being validated or being witnessed or anything.

I should be able to do that because I'm an adult and I'm a professional writer, but I don't, I can't, I'm not there whether I'll be there or not. This is who I am and that's what I realized I want and need. So that's what I'm doing. 

Meg: And a lot of writers, a lot of writers were sensitive, vulnerable beings. Right? That's why we're artists. That's why we're writers. So you do need some support and cheering like you just do. Um, yes. 

Lorien: So we hope this was helpful. This episode felt a little bit like a barf draft, right? A churn. A churn. We churn. We had an outline. Uh, things we wanted to talk about, sort of acknowledging, congratulations, you have a barf draft, amazing throw a party, and then some practical things you can do to keep going of what to do with that project. 

Meg: The next step. What to do with it. And we hope it's helpful. Again, they're just ideas. You don't have to do all of them. I'd say the one you're most afraid to do, you should do, but they're just little guideposts for you to help you.

Lorien: Remember, you are not alone and keep writing.