257 | Getting Repped in a Post-Strike Industry - Part 2 (ft. Daniela Gonzalez & Garrett Greer)

In part two of this incredible conversation, literary managers Daniela Gonzalez (Good Fear Content) and Garrett Greer (Haven Entertainment) join us to unpack what “breaking in” looks like today.

How do writers getting their second staffing job, what are some red flags we should avoid when repped, and what the heck is actually happening in the industry? Buckle up.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Jeff: Hey TSLers, producer Jeff here, and I'm super excited to bring you part two of this incredible conversation with literary managers, Daniela Gonzalez and Garrett Greer. If you haven't listened to part one of our conversation, we do refer back to that a bit in this talk, so it might be worth going back and checking that out.

I also wanna say thanks to our show's other incredible producer, Jonathan Hurwitz, and our amazing interns, Lauren Loesberg and Alex Farkas for asking great questions on today's show.

This is a great conversation. We get into some specifics and even talk a bit about the state of the industry right now, which I know all of us have questions about.

So it's very cathartic and very insightful. And of course, thanks to Daniela and Garrett for joining. And also thanks for our listeners. We hope you enjoy the talk! 

Lorien: Whether you are a longtime professional writer, or, you know, dealing with everything right now and like the finances, responsibilities, and then I have a thousand ideas, right?

Like, oh, I'm gonna go work on this book series, right? Because I couldn't figure out how to solve a different story problem, so I'm like, I'm gonna just Google solve a different story problem. So it got me inspired then to come back and solve that other story problem, like it did have function, or it was a way not to do my work, right? 

And so trying to figure that out, then I feel bad about myself, then I spin out, right? So, and then it becomes like I'm working on too many things and I don't have focus, and my manager's amazing. And she's like, okay, Lorien. Let's talk about what you're doing, right?

She gives me the rundown of the deadlines, but I feel the pressure of the reality of being a professional writer right now is so hard. Even when you have people in your corner, even when you have, you're listening to podcasts and you're getting great advice, actually applying that to your life is such a challenge.

So what advice do you have for people who are repped or aren't? And I'm not asking for myself at all. Don't even worry about, I'm asking for a friend. Practically real, like realistically, like an attainable thing. A writer who is freaking out for lack of a better way to, to talk about it. What should I, they, we do?

Garrett: I mean, it's sort of like – touching on something Daniela was saying before, it's like, you know, always be generating. I think that's the nice thing about this career. When I, you know, I have, I have colleagues who represent actors and there is only so much maneuverability that an actor has, like in, in terms of being able to change something to make, to click into place for their career. Whereas like a writer can always write their way into a new situation, you know? So it's like, taking that. 

Lorien: So the advice is do the work. 

Garrett: Yeah. Sadly, like, well here's the thing. At the end of the day, yeah. 

Lorien: No, I wanted you to be like, take a walk, play your favorite song, sleep for 15 hours, drink a Margarita. 

Daniela: Watch Love Island. Like there is definitely the –

Lorien: The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. 

Daniela: As long as they feel like they fill your well because creativity does not work if you're running on empty. And we're all in this pressure-filled time. There's so many variables and uncertainty that being creative is somewhat impossible.

But if you are in an advantage, like if you are at an advantage where you have a manager that is someone where. Hopefully you have the type of relationship where you're like, I'm gonna send you this vomit draft. I want to feel like at the end of next week I can measure how much work I've put in. And if it's a page, if it's half a script and like scribbles, at least you can feel proud of yourself that you kind of work through many of those headwinds and the emotional gymnastics that come with the fraud voice coming in and sort of the distraction of like, oh, what is the internet saying right now?

You know, then there's the n word, the news, um, where you're like, do I wanna spiral? Um, but no, no, you have a manager, like I really do feel like that is the rare person in your life who is more than happy to sit in that crisis with you. No, I'm an unlicensed therapist, so I'm not gonna be able to provide a lot of the support that I think a therapist could, but.

When it comes to the actual craft, the writing and the shared goals, that's what I think should never be overlooked. Um, but more often than not, it's like I'll talk to a writer first of the month, and then it's like we have a goal for the end of the month. They like to tell me everything that's going on.

None of it is writing, but at the end of the month I have something that they've given me and sometimes they kind of disappear and I do my little check-in, but it's, it is just like the hardest advice of like, what should a writer do is write. 

Lorien: Boo. 

Daniela: I have never been in your shoes. I've never been in your shoes, and I'm acting like it's so easy.

But if you're not, then what's scary is a lot of time can pass and then you can feel like, well, the rug just got pulled from underneath me. I don't feel ready for the opportunities that are being brought to me. And I've also, every time you write, you're becoming a better writer. So that's the other thing is like, are you ready for those opportunities?

Not from just an emotional place, but like from a craft space as well. 

Garrett: I think, I think Daniela, what you said about filling the well is really important too. You know, it's like my husband will sometimes beat himself up at the end of the day because he like, doesn't feel like he like accomplished whatever the goal was. Because you know, he had to take the dogs to the vet and you know, there's workers at our house doing stuff and you know, whatever. And I'm like. And I'm, and I'll be like, just sit and watch two hours of tv. You know, like, do something you enjoy. And I know sometimes that doing that can feel like work. So, you know –  

Lorien: Watching TV is definitely work.

Garrett: But even if it's, even if it's like, what Daniela, like Love Island, it's the Housewives, whatever. Like, it doesn't have to be like, oh, I'm sitting down and watching a prestige, da dah, dah, dah, dah. You know, like those things are important. I mean, he's, he has a project we're in negotiation's on right now where like, one of the things that inspired a character was someone on the new season of The Real Housewives of New York.

Oh my God. You know, like you never know where inspiration will strike, but you, I think you have to sort of, it's kind of like, it's, it's creative self-care in, in terms of being like, I'm gonna read a book of poetry. I'm gonna, you know, go look at nature, those things. As much as I think, like rather than beating yourself up as a writer because you are doing things that are not writing.

Consider perhaps reframing that other stuff –  

Lorien: No, I reject this. This is what I'm talking about. 

Garrett: – as good for you. 

Lorien: These are the, this is the advice I give to other people. Exactly. Right. Do the work, reframe it, um, go into nature, take a walk, you know? But like the practical reality is it's really hard. Right. So I guess I'm asking then like if you have a, a writer.

Who you've just started working with, who I, it's, you know, it's an existential crisis of identity and purpose and productivity and, you know, but what is the hard con, the real hard conversation you have with the writer when it's like, okay, look, right, like, you're not generating material, or what is that conversation like, and what does it take for you to get there?

Garrett: I mean, we can't want it more than you do. You know, like if I, and, and there have been periods of time where there's clients who, you know, it's like, for whatever reason, life's got in the way, what have you? And I like, I think it's, you know, we're, a lot of this is sort of framed, obviously this conversation, you know, the podcast we're on, it's framed around the writers.

But I think too, like I think about, I think about us. 

Lorien: Yeah, I wanna talk about that if we have time. Yeah, yeah. 

Garrett: Like we, you know, like we are people too, and knowing that a client's not working, you know, even if they're not talking to me about it, stresses me out. You know, these are people that, that I have grown to care about if I didn't already like and, and like, and I want the best for them, and, but at a certain point, I, for my own self, you know, and my own emotional space have to go, you know what?

I cannot want it more for them than they want it for themselves. And so I can't take that on if they're not going to do the work. And they know what they have to do because we've talked about it. I kind of have to like, let them do whatever it is they need to do to be able to accomplish that work.

We'll have a conversation where I'll say like, okay, you need to step up, like you need to do this. We can't do anything until you do. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's on them to, to, to do it. And, and I kind of have to divest myself a little bit of. My, that sort of responsibility, and I'm a people pleaser. I like to, you know, help someone as much as I possibly can, but there are limits to that.

You know, like I have to make sure that like my, my well is full, so to speak, like, to be able to help them and the rest of the people that I work with. 

Lorien: Yeah. I think what you're talking about, I mean, I think that is a great way to frame this whole thing, which is, as the writer, you have to want it more than anyone else.

And it's your responsibility to want it more than anyone else. Like you can have a right, a manager, or anybody in your corner, but um, it's up to you. And I think that that's probably the reframing I need, right? I'm in the driver's seat, I'm the main character, but at the same time, the manager doesn't work for you, right?

They work with you. It's a collaborative relationship with boundaries. Right. That, you know, as a, if I have a, if I'm a client of somebody and I'm taking up space on their roster, I feel bad that I'm like not generating work because I understand that it is a business relationship as well. It's not just this emotional sort of, um, unlicensed therapist thing. 

Garrett: But we are happy to do that work.

Daniela: No, we're happy to. I mean, it's, it's because like we really do care and we're. Invested not only financially, but also emotionally. Um, but I think the other thing that often writers forget is that that voice or that kind of pattern of behavior of like avoiding the work. Will never go away. 

Lorien: Why are you attacking me? It's like, I feel like you're attacking me. 

Daniela: No, I'm thinking of some people in my mind, other people, and it's not you. Other people. Other people. We just met how dare, how dare I make the assumption? Um, or maybe it might have been Meg had said it on an episode a few weeks ago. Right? 

Lorien: I said, I don't take my advice, I don't take her advice. 

Daniela: Who takes their own advice? No, but that idea that it's like. We are the, I said this before and I, I kind of now digging my heels into the sentiment is like, this is a, a relationship that helps sort of condition you for what the work looks like when you are a professional writer and when a producer is waiting for a draft and is, has that same expectation of you, you're gonna have that spiral and you'll be like, well, I'm writing this for a major studio, or I have a draft due for the showrunner.

That feeling does not go away. The pressure act probably feels much more severe because there's money riding on it. Um, but thankfully you can look at this period of time to go, okay, well what can I work on to make that voice be a voice that's fuel rather than like draining you of whatever creative energy you need to like accomplish your goal.

Lorien: Well, thanks everybody for the therapy session. Um, all right, Jonathan, do you have a question? 

Jonathan: I would love to join this therapy session, which has been beautiful to listen to by the way. It's really helpful to hear people talk candidly about the industry because it's going through a tough moment.

Um, I think for, for me, I had worked towards being a staff writer on a show and felt so lucky to be able to do it. And they always say that the hardest thing to do is to then get your second staff job. So I guess I would want advice on what to do when I was staffed on a show and not now.

It feels like it was in my past. That was years ago, and I feel like I'm losing that connection to the industry. This podcast keeps me connected, but I've also moved to New York, right? So there's that geographic separation too. So I would just be curious to hear what advice you would give to somebody in my situation.

Daniela: You know, Jonathan, I have a couple clients that are in your situation where there was a –

Jonathan: I'm not alone? 

Daniela: You're not alone. You're not alone. Um, a part of me wants to say that the strike was the great equalizer. Like there were a lot of people pre-strike that they were so, they, they were rising up and felt very close to the careers that they envisioned for themselves, and there was this disruption.

I point to the strike as if I'm blaming the strike, but I. Very critical that we had it. So, uh, I wanna make that very clear. Um, and I think, you know, as much as it feels like it's in the past, it's something that is still experience that you have. And as we've been really emphasizing how important it is to generate work, it is making sure that you're pairing that experience with your voice and not talking about these things that feel somewhat separate. It's like how in combination. 

And, you know, the thing about New York is there is a vibrant, creative community there, and it has this like guerilla style of, you know, people making high maintenance or, uh, or you're in late night. You know, like there's sort of these two, um, opposite ends of the spectrum, but you can build a community there and just think through, okay, well how and what do I want for my career now with this, um, kind of resume building moment, which was that you were staffed. 

Uh, and so obviously we know each other in this very limited capacity, but I would stay encouraged and not also look at not having a manager as a setback. It's about finding that manager that can see that opportunity, but then being prepared for that right match for, okay, how can I help you? Because I look at my clients right now who are like, they were at the mid-level in 2019 and haven't worked since. And so what is it that we're doing to try to build back that momentum? 

Jonathan: I have a quick follow up question. Is there a way to talk about, you know, the experiences that you've had? Maybe they're non-industry. The reality is a lot of us just need to work to pay our bills. So if there's an understanding of that, then that's helpful in terms of meeting with managers and explaining who you are. But I think about, you know, I have multiple jobs. I produce a podcast, I work in a retail store. I just got another part-time job, so I'm doing all these. Wait, I should tell Lorien and Jeff that –

Lorien: Congratulations! 

Daniela: The reveal. 

Lorien: You did also have to recently explain to me what a Labubu is, so I feel like that's a full-time job of keeping me current. 

Garrett: You are better to not know. Sorry, Jonathan. Yeah. 

Daniela: No, my God. 

Jonathan: You're lucky I didn't bring my Labubu on camera. 

Lorien: I am lucky. I am lucky. 

Garrett: Leave Toffee out of this. 

Lorien: I get that. You're asking like how do you manage all the real life responsibilities? Like, and then, yes, it seems like finding a manager or staying connected to the industry, all of this feels very much like a job. 

Jonathan: I always think about when I got staffed for the first time, I remember my boss, the showrunner, using the phrase "mineable resources". And so when she was staffing a room, she was thinking about how can, who, what sorts of stories do these writers, what are they gonna be able to bring? What sort of resources are they going to be able to bring to the room? 

So I think I'm trying to frame these last couple years in a way of, well, I've now worked at a marketing agency. I've now worked at a retail store. Like if I was, I have, I've been collecting all these experiences and if I was ever to be in a position of staffing on a show that even involved those worlds in some way, I hope that I could frame it in a way.

I've lived, I've lived this, and like now I'm ready to write about it. So is there any I – I think I'm less asking a question, and more wanting validation!

Daniela: No, no, no. I know what the question is. A way to look at, yeah, I know what the question is because I had a client who was staffed on a show three year deal, then after 20 weeks was unemployed for what felt like, I know what was two years before like the show came back and it was like during that time, she needed to make money. So she worked on a podcast, she was working for like, uh, writing for a podcast, and it felt like she was writing for a soap opera, like 52 episodes in a week. And it was just sort of this crazy question. And when she met with a showrunner on a new show, she was able to convert the story of like, I can kill my darlings, right?

Like if I am in an environment where I am set out to look at what's the core of the story and strip back things that are unnecessary, I can do that. So I think Jonathan, in your case, where you have also very real world experience where it's like marketing retail, you’re around people and you're going to be telling stories about people.

So I think being able to maybe look at three, four, or five anecdotes that you can pull in, and they don't have to be reflected in your written work, but in preparation to talking to a potential manager or even a showrunner to say like, only I can speak to the dynamics of a workplace that are. You know, very specific to that. 

Lorien: Managing, Jonathan, is one of your superpowers. You did it at Pixar. I'm sure you do it with clients, right? You do it with us here on the podcast. Managing up, right? How to convince people to get their shit done without being a jerk about it. 

Jonathan: I hope I'm not a jerk!

Lorien: No, you're not, is what I'm saying. Like I feel like, oh, I wanna do the thing that you've asked me to do. I don't feel like, you know. No, I mean, that's one of your many skills, which I'm sure you can. I'm sure there are people in tv, characters in TV who do. 

Daniela: Yeah, I think it's like you can, you have the soft, you have the soft skills, the hard skills, but you have anecdotes. And I love meeting with writers, like potential clients where they've lived life.

Because while I also will meet people when they've recently graduated college, I'm like, have you experienced heartbreak? Have you experienced layoffs? If you've been in an environment where the FBI raided your office because your boss was a criminal. Like that is awesome. I wanna hear about it because not everyone has that experience.

So I think don't discount things that may have veered you off of the writing career, because those are things that can inform your writing and your perspective. 

Garrett: I, the, the client that I'm out to agents with right now, she, before she became, before she worked in the entertainment business, she was a practicing attorney and she also is a trained chef who worked in fine dining and like that got me excited when, when the person who sent me to her was first like telling me about her.

I was like, oh my God, this experience, you know, like a hundred percent. It's that stuff, but I think too. Sort of like on a more, you know, individual level and thinking about like, kind of the emotional experience of the space that you're in. Um, post-strike. One of the good things that I think came out one of, one of the several good things that I think came out of that, but was kind of like it de-stigmatized the idea of a side hustle where I think that, you know, if you've had a career as a writer and you have a setback and you find yourself in a position where that's not what you're doing, I think.

There can be a lot of shame that gets wrapped up in that and disappointment and like, oh no, I got this thing and then I lost it. And oh my God, what does this mean for me? Like, and I think that, you know, the nice thing of everyone coming together on those strike lines is realizing that that is a lot of people's experience.

And I think that there is less of a, of, you know, of a stigma around that and. People have to do what they have to do in order to pay their bills and eat. And I think the business now is more broadly aware of that and, and supportive of that in a way that I think felt perhaps, potentially really isolating before.

Lorien: I want you to know, Garrett, that you just described your client, and I just came up with two TV show ideas around her very specific experience. I'm like, oh, I, I haven't talked to her. I just came up with two ideas that only she could write. And yeah. So anyway. Okay, Lauren, Alex, do you have any questions?

Lauren: Yeah. Hi. I would love to ask a question. Um, just wanna say like, this is maybe like one of my favorite TSL episodes ever. I feel like you guys have answered every question I've ever had about anything. So thank you.  

Garrett: Well, thank you! 

Lorien: Gold stars! A plus! 

Lauren: Um, my question is definitely about like as, as an emerging filmmaker, like how you can frame yourself or pitch yourself as a potential client? Like what's the way, obviously like a referral and you went over like, you know, how to like connect with someone in cold calling or whatever. But like, I, like, I'm similar to Jeff in that I made a film and I had some success, but I also have been an assistant in the industry full time and like, I think I'm ready to take this next step, but like, I struggle with presenting myself I think as a, you know, as a filmmaker and a professional, and sort of like, what do you look for when you're meeting with some of these young, emerging people that make you think that they could be a good client? 

Garrett: I think it's like, you know, for me it's, it's in terms of the creative and kind of like that stuff, it's, it's branding.

It's like having an understanding of what your strengths are and how to play to them, and knowing that like, all right, when I begin this is, this is how I'm gonna present myself. Because that gives us, you know, like. We, if we can see that, we know how then to do our jobs better. And then I think the other part of it is, you know, it's like I'm looking at, if I'm talk, thinking about like that meeting or whatever, um, you know, I, I want to feel a connection and feel like the communication is good because that's so, so much a part of the work that we do is being able to communicate with the people that we work with.

And so being able to talk to somebody and, and. For that to be open and for them to be like, honest and like, these are the things that I want. Like how realistic is that open to feedback given giving a back and forth? Um, because at part of our jobs is, yes, it's being that like, uh, um, what did you say, Daniela? Unlicensed therapist? Yes. Um, but it's, you know, it's my legacy. We have to have a lot of hard conversations and, and so if I'm in a meeting, like, like I said before, it's like if I'm meeting with somebody it's because I wanna sign them. But the things that could sort of turn me off is to be like, oh, like this is a person who thinks they know best always.

Like, I can't, I like, that's not gonna work. And that's not me saying I know best always, but it's like. We have to be able to collaborate. So it's, it's, I think someone who knows how, who they are and what they want to do creatively. And then also the other side of someone who can like, be an adult and have an adult relationship, um, because that's such a big part of the work that we do.

Daniela: I do wanna add to this too, where it's like, Hey, you've made this film. Probably gotten some version of like reviews or feedback, and maybe other people are telling you the type of filmmaker that you are. And so if you are looking for potential representation and you're like, all right, I wanna make sure that I have control over the narrative, your next piece of material allows you to do that. So when you're presenting, you talk about, this is what I wanna do next and this is what I have done. And those two things should coexist together. Uh, but I think often with filmmakers, it's like people wanna know. That I can make a movie, so I'm gonna show the first movie that I ever made.

But then that first movie, you're like, is that the best representation of what I want to do? And if it's not, don't lead with the movie. You can lead with the script that you're very excited about. Naturally the the representative is gonna be like, I'm gonna wanna watch your first movie, but if we've already fallen in love, and Garrett's already said this, you know.

Earlier, which is like if you're we're in the room together, I've already responded to your material, and I recently signed a filmmaker who made their first movie for $80,000. It was the fourth thing that I looked at because I read the first script. I loved it. I wanted to read more, and then finally it was like, okay, let me watch your movie.

Okay. You made a movie, but this is not what we're gonna lead with. So I think it's okay to maybe reorder how your first impression is designed so that you feel like you have control over the branding as Garrett said. 

Lauren: Hmm. That's super helpful. And then if I have time for a quick follow up question, like what would you tell young people? Like if I'm gonna send you my script, right? Like how do I know when it's ready? You know, if you were gonna make that first impression, like how do you know? 

Garrett: Oh my God. That's so, that's hard, I mean, it's hard. 

Daniela: I mean, it's the hardest question because only you would know, right? Like, I think that you're like, you know what? I have hit a lot of hurdles and this is not the best representation of the story I wanna tell. It is not ready. Mm-hmm. Um, because that sounds like you bring it to a writer's group and they can help you cycle through creative obstacles. But if you're like, this is the best representation of the movie that I wanna make, and it's tackling all the themes.

And sure it's not perfect, but nothing ever is. But I'm confident that I can have a productive conversation around strategy, packaging, whatever it might look like, that's when I think it's ready. So it's never about the creative, but more so now I can have an effective conversation about what I can do to get this made.

Garrett: And I think some writers, like I have clients who will literally tinker, tinker forever, like I have to like slap their hands and be like, Nope, send it to me. Stop messing with it. Like, and then sometimes they'll send me another draft being like, I changed some things and I'm like, alright, stop. I'm halfway through the first version.

Um, but I think like, you know, knowing that that is a thing that can be really common for, you know, artists like to be like, oh no, I could possibly improve this, um, is to just be able to also kind of be like, okay, like I got people, other feedback, external feedback. Because this is the thing, it's like, you know what Daniela was saying about a writer's group, like.

You're not sending something to us in a vacuum. You have a network of people, whether they're in the business or not. You know, like that, you know, you find someone you trust to be like, Hey, what am I not seeing? And, and making those adjustments. And if you feel good about it, even if you're like, oh, I could tweak this forever. Back away from the keyboard and just be like, you know what?

Like, I have done what I can do here and now it is up to, you know, the universe, whatever. Um, let's, you know, let's see where it goes. Yeah. Because if it doesn't work out, you can always do something new, you know? 

Lauren: Mm-hmm. 

Lorien: I think it's the scary thing you said about you can only make one first impression. So there's this idea that like, okay, I send you the best version of the script I have right now, and you pass, and then I feel like, oh my God, that person hates me, never wants to hear from me again.

I'm sure I'm on some shit hit list. Like, don't, like, like you, like you feel like, oh, I, I wasn't. That I've heard that sentiment. I don't believe that myself because I'm a delight and I forget everything. But, um, that's not true. Or is it? 

Garrett: I mean, if so, if I thought something was really, really bad then I am probably unlikely to look at it again. But like, I don't tend to read things that are really, really bad. 

Lorien: Like if you get something from somebody and you're like meh, and then you get something from them again a year later, would you still consider it? Reading? 

Garrett: Yeah. Depending. I mean like it like. If I, it's, you know, I said the thing earlier about that friend of mine that I now represent where like, yeah, you know, it wasn't, I liked her, so I kept engaging, you know?

Um, and two, also remember like, we are all individ as, as all as, you guys all are too. Like you're all individuals with different taste. And like Daniela might read something of my clients and be like, Garrett, this is trash. But I'm like, no, I love it and I believe in it, and vice versa, you know, like. Like just because I love something.

Lorien: I hope those conversations are not happening in real life because that just –

Garrett: We don't have time to read each other's client's material. 

Lorien: That's a whole firework of like, oh shit, I have to worry about that crap. 

Garrett: No, that does, that does not happen. No. 

Daniela: Thankfully the managers have a code of conduct. Like if I'm reading his client, it's probably because his client is staffing a show and I wanna make sure I'm submitting the right material, whatever. But yeah, the idea of just being like, yeah, you know what? I decided in my spare time, because I have so much of it, I'm gonna just completely read through your catalog.

Garrett: But I mean, like, if the same, if the same writer sent material to me and to Daniela, we could both have completely divergent views of it. And that doesn't mean that like the person who hated it is right. You know, like this is all subjective. All subjective, you know? 

Lorien: So I think Lauren, it's about finding the person who you think you connect with the most thematically. Clients they represent, projects they make. So if it's in that space, they're gonna be more open to wherever it is and the best possible version of it, rather than sending it to somebody like if you have a romantic comedy, sending it to somebody who does hard sci-fi, who might not be loving rom romcoms, you know? 

Lauren: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, that's super helpful. Thank you so much. 

Lorien: Alright, Alex? 

Alex: I personally, I'm not a screenwriter. I'm more of a production slash editor, so a lot of what I've heard is very helpful in terms of like getting into the industry and just like introducing yourself in a way that other people can see that you have potential and talent for like them to be interested.

Um, but I don't have any, really any questions regarding like any screenwriting. This was definitely like, I, I do, I'm very fascinated with the whole industry in that like analyzing scripts. And then my stepmother is a, uh, screenplay writer as well. But, um, it's just a kind of an industry that I kind of look upon.

It's not something that I'm terribly indulged in. But it is very interesting to hear your comments.

Lorien: You're an editor though. 

Alex: I'm a video editor. I'm not like a screenwriter. 

Garrett: That's creative. 

Lorien: That's the industry. Sorry, sorry. I'm sorry to let you know, but you're in the industry.

Alex: Oh, yeah. I'm trying to – I'm very indulgent. I'm glad to be here! 

Lorien: Okay, cool. All right. The industry post-strike has definitely been moving in different directions and it's really hard to understand what's happening. Um, like I got some pitches, I've had some meetings I've asked to pitch on, some, I've been asked to pitch on some owa, but like generally speaking, most writers that I know and I'm talking to are not working.

And we keep grabbing onto these like, oh, it seems like things are opening up. And then the summer happens and it, it's like, what is happening in the industry right now? And I don't mean like, what are the, what are, what is Netflix looking for? I mean. What is happening? Because I wanna know. 

Daniela: I mean it obviously with the like, oh, well we could talk about the CEOs or the, whatever. We're not gonna talk about that. And I think what also I hear in the question is, what do writers need right now more than anything? And it's like it's resilience. We are in a season that requires struggle and agony and a lot of feelings that we wanted to wash away after marching for as many months as we did. I was on those picket lines. 

Lorien: You weren't working either. Yes.  I mean, come on. Solidarity. Yeah. 

Garrett: I made picket signs. A lot of them. 

Lorien: Aw. I got heat stroke on the Disney line, so I feel like I put in my time. 

Daniela: I was nine months pregnant when the strike started and had my maternity leave during the strike, but I went into labor supporting the labor movement. I think the thing that's really frustrating right now is that the needs from the industry, from the writing community are specific and narrow, and the pool of people who can meet those needs is actually also specific and narrow, and it's really hard when 10 years ago. People with a strong perspective, a, a unique idea, could find a place outside of those specific needs.

And now trying to find the advocates, the champions, the producers, the studio, to come on to those ideas. It's rare. It's, it's rarer than it's ever been before. But I don't believe that this is the new normal of like going forward, unless you're a procedural writer, you. Even unless you have The Pitt, then you'll not be able to work ever again.

Um, so a like, I hope that the conversation that we've had at large has kept everyone very hopeful, but it is a conversation that is one where it's like, this is a long term. I can't put a timestamp on like when we will reregulate as an industry, but I don't think it's a time to abandon. Your ambition. Uh, but it's, it's hard because the last thing I wanna do, and Garrett brought this up at the top of our conversation, was tell a writer what to write.

Um, because that is not the solution. It's not, okay, there's this narrow need and you have to meet that need. Um, I'm confident there are ways to figure it out. Not reinvent the wheel, but that's, I'm sidestepping the real answer to that question because I personally don't know what's happening. The identity crisis, 

Lorien: I mean, I think that's the answer is that we all have such a very specific and narrow window into what's going on.

Like I can only talk to what's going on with me, right? The calls I'm getting, the, the opportunities I'm having, the ghosting I'm getting, and then it's comparing it to other people in different sectors of the industry. And it's just. Very mysterious right now. 

Garrett: I think it's like there's, you know, obviously, you know, we all have different vantage points and, and Daniela and I get to see behind the curtain a little bit more, um, given what we do.

But, you know, I think part of it, like the thing that I, that I've said to clients who are, who are, are stressed and frustrated, and I don't know that it's necessarily something that helps, but you are not special. Like your, your struggle is not unique to you. Like this is unfortunately just sort of the, the thing that is happening right now.

And, and, and I say that as a way of sort of like alleviating the feeling of failure because it's like, no, no, no, you're not doing something wrong. It's like, yeah, they're doing, uh, I remember seeing like on a staffing grid last year, um, they're doing a, a series version of, um, Girl With the Dragon Tattoo at Amazon.

And they were like, we want, like needs, were like, you know, upper levels, strong draft writers. You know, who are who, who have production experience? Great. Oh my God. Like that filter. You know, I've got people who fit that filter and it was like... who also have experience in Eastern Europe as journalists focusing on Middle Eastern, you know, on, on, on like religious extremism, uh, and, and the far right.

Lorien: I read the book. Does that count? 

Garrett: You know, it's just like, it's like that thing where it's like, I mean, like, does that writer even exist? I saw one at at Netflix that was like. Bonus points if their father abandoned them. Ooh, ooh. You know? 

Daniela: And I always like, job requirements must be traumatized. But then the trauma has to be very specific. Um, by the way, Garrett, I think with the, with when the needs are very, very specific, it's because they identified the writer and the writer for one reason or the other didn't wanna do it. So they're like, we want that person, but they don't wanna do it. So find me another one.

Garrett: But I, but I think broadly, you know. Even if we're talking millimeters today is better than yesterday and tomorrow will be better than today. And it's just, you know, like things are happening and, and it's just a matter of like, you know, if you, and this is sometimes very much easier said than done, but it's just like, hang in there, you know, do the work.

Like you could write something tomorrow that could completely change the game for you. And blow past all of these walls that feel like they're up right now. 

Lorien: If only I could write it in one day. Right. That would be amazing. 

Garrett: Well, listen, tomorrow you can start writing it. 

Lorien: I'll start writing it. I'll finish, I'll finish that thing. I avoided writing and I wrote that book series instead. So I feel like the, the takeaways from your perspective, both of you are, you know, the writer has to want it more. And that, I mean, that, that other people can't want it more than you do. So you have to do the work.

We have to be resilient, we have to be hopeful, um, and, uh, take care of ourselves in a really tough time. That doesn't seem to be like getting better anytime soon, right? Maybe worse, maybe different, but this is sort of what we're dealing with right now. Um, but that. Your job as managers is so much about not just being the unlicensed therapist, but about being the cheerleader to a certain extent, to a lot of very dark, cynical, scattered, anxiety ridden burdened writers.

You know? And that's the reality of your everyday life is that I'm sure you have different clients who are different levels of that, but that's a lot. That's a lot for you to deal with and still maintain the sort of. Healthy distance and boundaries, but also like, okay, let's do this. Even as writers are not doing the work and freaking out and sort of, that's really hard.

I really respect what you do. Thank you. Because I like to be bitter and cynical. Much more comfort, comfortable. 

Daniela: I feel seen. That's all I needed today. Feel seen? 

Lorien: No, I mean, but it is, it is a lot. But I think what one of you said earlier too is that writer, uh, managers, it's not just like I have a manager, like a bank teller, but even that's not fair because bank tellers are all individuals and human beings too, with their own lives. But it's not like I have a manager. Here is the job a manager does. It is a very specific personal relationship that is professional. But you know, you, your manager learns a lot about you. Because you know, I didn't write the thing because we had a catastrophic health thing happen.

You kind of need to be able to tell the truth about that stuff and it's a lot for another person to hold for a lot of different writers. All those things going on, and I think respecting that, which is part of finding the right person for you that can hold onto some of that stuff for you and walk with it, walk in it with you without.

You crashing them out or you know, crashing them out. That is apparently a very young thing that my daughter says she got crashed out. So I've made reference to crashing out and Labubu. So I want all the young person credits right now. Thank much. Um, yeah, I got some applause clap. Um, but I mean, it's a really hard job on both sides.

And it's such a different skillset, but I really respect what you do. And like I said, I love my manager and everything she does and no, I'm very clear with her about how much I appreciate her. But, um, okay. Last words, what do you love about being a manager and what pisses you off about being a manager? 

Daniela: Go ahead, Garrett.

Garrett: Um, I'll start with the, what pisses me off about being a manager? Because I want to end on a good thought. 

Lorien: Um, be so optimistic and hopeful. 

Garrett: What pisses me off about being a manager is just that, you know, like there's limits to what we can do. You know, like I would love to be able to be like, no, like. This is the thing you have to do.

Like, and I don't think I'm wrong when someone says no, you know, and, and that's the thing is you don't want, you want the manager who doesn't think they're wrong because like, they have to believe in you. You know? But it, it's, it, it is, it is sometimes a really frustrating thing to navigate. It's gotten more frustrating just because like, you know, if I'm sending one writer for a job and not on a show and they've received 600 submissions, it's like, crap, how do I cut through that?

Like that? That is the thing I find most daunting, I think. But in terms of the thing that I love the most about it, it's like I don't, it's just fun, you know? Like I love when I was, when I was at MTV and. Thinking about what am I gonna do next? I was like, I miss being close to the action. I miss, like, you know, I think about network notes as like making the Titanic do a 90 degree left hand turn.

You can only go so far. And I like being close to the beginning of it where you know, you can be like, no, no, no. Change this entirely. Like, what if you did this other thing like that took what you loved and like, you know, like it's fun. It's getting to play in the sandbox. And I get to do that with like.

You know, 22 people like that who all want to tell different stories, like every, every day, every script is like just a new thing to play with. And I think it's just so that's, I'm a big dork who loves to read and watch television and like, that's why I'm in this business and this scratches that itch so hugely. It's fun. 

Lorien: Um, all right, Daniela? 

Daniela: Hmm. What pisses me off is when there's a misunderstanding about what the relationship is. So we talked a little bit about, of a manager who works for you, and it's like I get treated sort of like the, um, the help and it's like, yes, I'm here to help, but we are in this together.

And it can, it can harbor some resentment if the relationship starts or shifts into a different modality. And, um, and it. If I get a certain tone type of email, I'm like, it can ruin my day. And I just really cherish my relationship with my clients. So to the, the rare one or two or the former clients who have had that behavior, I'm like, oh my God, life's too short. You know? 

Lorien: Do you mean like, why haven't you done this thing? Or like the –

Daniela: Yeah. Or like it's like, I want receipts. I wanna know the 150 people that rejected me. I red flag, flag. Or I wanna know why I haven't, my, one of my favorites, and we can keep this in the recording, is like, I don't know why I wasn't shortlisted for an Oscar. Like, I wanna know why. And I'm like, I wanna know why too. I wanna, I wanna meet the people, I wanna, whatever.  But I was just sort of like – 

Lorien: Like it was your responsibility to get them that opportunity. Right, because we all are limited to a certain, like other people are making decisions here. 

Daniela: And next to that, I'm like, I do think you're amazing. I, and I want you to be the best, but there is a group of people that aren't me that decided that you weren't even in the class of the best. So. I do not wanna meet that attitude. I wanna meet the attitude that's like, you know what? I was close to this win and now I'm, I'm hungrier for it. I know what I need to change.

This is feedback. Um, but it just, it gets grinds my gears hard. Um, the thing that brings me the most joy is to be able to. Be alongside my client as their career really springboards into the thing that they've envisioned and being with them and to celebrate every one of those wins because it takes a very, it can take a long time, it could take a brief amount of time, but it takes a lot of emotional, um.

Or there're just stretches of emotions. So I, I feel so satisfied by the fact that it's like, oh my goodness, you can buy the house. Or Oh my goodness, you can quit your day job.  

Lorien: Health insurance to WGA. 

Daniela: Yes. Right. Um, you know, it's like, there, there are so many different reasons. Like the client who told me, oh my goodness, I just had my egg retrieval and it's thanks to my health insurance.

Or the other client who was like, I can afford to live by myself for the first time. Um, it's really powerful and it's such a privilege to, uh, be a part of my client's life. And I just never wanna take that for granted because I'm like, they're the talented ones. Like I have the privilege of like supporting them, but I know that it's like they're talented with or without me now. Um, that's, that's just so satisfying to be like in the room for 

Lorien: That talent is only a fraction of it. You know, we need people to help us. It takes a village. Yes, it takes a village. Well I started having a really, I started out with a really, really shitty day and I'm begrudgingly gonna let you know that you've turned it around from me or whatever.

Daniela: We did it, Garrett. 

Garrett: Listen, that's our job, both of you. That's our job. You're welcome.

Lorien: Well thank you so much, uh, for all of your time today. I really, really appreciate it. I know this is gonna be a really helpful episode for all of our listeners because it was for me.

Garrett: Well, thanks for having us. We've enjoyed it. 

Lorien: Thank you so much to Daniela and Garrett for pulling back the curtain on what the journey to representation actually looks like, especially for emerging writers. And as always, remember, you are not alone and keep writing.