251 | Writing with Your Partner (in Life & Work): Joe Forte on Collaboration, Mentorship, & Creative Retreats

What’s it like to collaborate creatively with your spouse — and still want to have dinner together after? This week, we’re joined by Joe Forte, screenwriter (FIREWALL) and longtime writing partner (and husband!) of Meg LeFauve.

We talk candidly about the unique dynamics of working with your life partner — the communication hurdles, the unexpected benefits, and how to protect both the relationship and the work. Plus, Joe shares the power of writing retreats, how he thinks about mentorship, and what it really means to support another writer’s voice while honoring your own.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey everyone. Welcome to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve.

Lorien: And I'm Lorien McKenna, and today we're gonna be talking about writing retreats and collaboration with our very special guest, Joe Forte. Joe Forte is a filmmaker with over 30 years of industry experience. He currently partners with Meg LeFauve at their company, Story House, where the two have written projects for studios, including Sony, MGM, Amazon, and are now developing a slate of original films for Netflix.

A graduate of NYU Tisch School of the Arts, Joe launched his career with his original screenplay for the film “Firewall” starring Harrison Ford as a director. He helmed the documentary, “The Man Who Saved Ben Hur,” which is currently streaming on Amazon. He is the father of two and also an accomplished collage artist whose work has been bought by collectors such as Beth Rudin DeWoody.

Hi Joe. Welcome to the show.

Joe Forte: Well fun to be here. I've heard so much about you guys.

Lorien: So weird. So weird.

Meg: Weird, weird. Well, thank you. I yeah, that's right everybody. I have convinced my writing partner to be on the show with us. We just came back from Italy and had a wonderful experience at a retreat. We just wanna share with you and talk about what people ask us all the time about how do you work together.

But first we will do what we call Adventures in Screenwriting, or “How was your week?” Joe, we always let Lorien go first so she can tell you how it's done, Lorien.

Lorien: As if you haven't been privy to my stream of consciousness.

Joe Forte: Yeah, that's what I show up for.

Lorien: So my week was complicated. I had some personal stuff going on. I was bitten by a hornet. I got an infection from that. So that was super fun and very distracting. I don't recommend that, zero stars. I have been working on my project. I have some pitches set up for it. This project I've been working on and I'm very excited. And then I have another project that I'm still taking out, have been taking out for a while.

And I hope, I hope that gets sold next week at my, I think my final pitch. So, fingers crossed.

Meg: But it's good news that people are listening to pitches. Yes. I feel like the, the town is listening that pitches are happening.

Lorien: Yeah. In both animation and live action. So that feels really positive that there is a turn a little bit towards like opening doors back up.

I can get back in rooms. I am, so I'm excited about that and I'm hoping at least one of these pitches is in person again, so I can be wildly uncomfortable. Again, going back to the old ways, 'cause I got super used to and comfortable pitching on Zoom. So I'll be like, what do I do with my hands? And I hope that I'm wearing the same shoes on both feet.

And, you know, all those kinds of worries about being in person again. And finding parking. And where do you

Meg: Where do you sit? Where do you sit in the room? That's always the one, like, which is their chair. Don't sit in their chair.

Lorien: The politics of getting in the room and sitting down. I like it when the assistant is like gestures where I'm supposed to sit.

Meg: Yes, that's right. Right. 

Lorien: Can I get you some water? some water? Yes, I'd love some water. Please sit here. Like, great. I know the directions. I can meet expectations. A plus I'm in, so my week was ups and downs and as usual. But I think the, the headline is continuing to work and focus on my creative projects was a challenge this week because of everything else that was going on in my personal life.

And I wasn't very successful at it. I have to say, unfortunately, like, I like to imagine that I'm the kind of person that can like just push through and I really wasn't able to that hard this week and I'm just gonna try again tomorrow. I guess that's all you can do. Amen. Like as parenting. Amen. Like, amen.

I just, I can't beat myself up about it or catalog all the work I didn't get done because my brain was doing something else.

Meg: And then you'll stress yourself out and not work again. It'll just compound the problem. You gotta let it go. Be excited about writing next week. All the little creative juices are waiting to come forth.

Yes. All your characters have been waiting patiently for you. Here they come. 

Lorien: Yes. So that'll be Amen.

Joe Forte: Amen.

Lorien: Yeah. All right. Joe, how was your week?

Joe Forte: My week was solid. We have been away for quite a bit of time working out of the country, so it was nice to come home and get back up to speed. And that's a huge part of my practice is just being organized, like being ready in the firehouse.

'cause there's always an alarm that's gonna go off. And you know, and I, I, I appreciate that I have that kind of flexibility to you know, take care of business. But yeah, that was it was, it was a nice week catching up and. I just read some pages from Meg LeFauve. Very excited. He walked into my office… 

Lorien: Are we gonna get live?

Joe Forte: … Wondering if I liked her pages and I liked her pages. Yes.

Meg: This is gonna be live week happening right now, which is so this is actual real time.

Lorien: What It's like he just said he went for pages. Meg seemed surprised by this and he said,

Joe Forte: Meg was, you know, we both are very anxious when we give each other pages.

We have to do the same things we tell. Each other and the rest of the world, like, be positive, you know, start with something good, build off of what's good. But in this case, very easy because it was just butter. 

Meg: Lovely. So happy. I'll say that's my week. So I, you know, when you're collaborating, everybody collaborates differently and we collaborate differently depending on what part's happening in our lives.

And I went forward in the draft and kind of took it, and then now Joe's gonna take it and we'll go back and forth. So I wrote from where we were up to the midpoint, and then I gave it to him. And then this morning. I go to Pete's every morning and read a book that could never be a movie, because that's just my process of relaxation and get myself creatively going.

And Joe came to Pete's and he sat down and I was like, I'm so anxious, and I was trying to figure out why I'm so anxious. I'm anxious about this, I'm anxious about. About that and maybe that thing with Julian and maybe I, I gotta get that done and this phone call we have to have, and then all of sudden I was like, oh no, I'm anxious.

'cause you have the pages and you have not read them yet or whatever. You haven't told me anything. What's happening? Like it doesn't matter that it's your partner, it's still the same anxious. Like, is this work at all? Like, do we have to, is this. I'm gonna go off the tracks right now and we have to go back in and start over, or does it work?

Does it not work? Please tell me that. Something beautiful about the writing. So it was nice this afternoon to have my writing partner. You know, it, I, I, I don't know how you guys are when somebody starts talking about your work, but the words are a little bit like, rah. Yeah, just look at their face.

Like, and it's, and his face was open and, and positive and smiling and I was like, okay. My, my brain just was like, okay, you can relax. It is about ego, of course, but it isn't, it's more than that. It's like you're trying to do this huge lift, and I think everybody forgets what a lift a full feature is.

It's a big lift. So at the midpoint to have somebody, your partner read it and say. Gosh, you know, great stuff, but I think we're off track. Right? Story's not working. Or that would've been just really tiring to hear. It would've just been like, oh my God. So I was so relieved that at least it's working. I know, because this is what immediately the voice in my head says by tomorrow it could not be working.

'cause we're gonna go forward and the whole thing could fall apart. But why will till tomorrow? Meg? Why way brown it. It's working right now. It could fall apart right now when I go after this call and start writing.

Joe Forte: No, I was gonna say, the good news is I have 12 more pages to read. That's, that's my delight and pleasure.

But I know when I say that, Meg's gonna go, oh, well that's where it's right. You just took the whole podcast off the rails. Thank you.

Meg: Off the right off the rails. Now I'm, now I'm nervous singing.

Joe Forte: Listen, listen. The, the, and just to talk about process, that's six months of work scaffolding up to the point where, you know, one of us can take the, the, the structure and the, the outline and just go and have fun with it.

So, you know, it's, it's it's, it's great to also have that payoff and, you know, we, we have been working to build the structure so. Yeah, I feel great about it because it's built on something really common. 

Meg: Yeah. And it's a very complex story in that it has to feel light and fun and easy, and yet it's many, many characters, lots of twisting, turning plot.

So you want the feeling of light and fun, but the, the work underneath that to get that, you know, it's taken some time to even figure out that story math of how to do this and who comes in when and when does the plot turn. So I'm just glad that it's working so far. I'm literally in my head like, okay, the next scene is when I think it might go off the rails, but I'm not gonna worry about it.

Lorien: So you guys have been working on this project together for six months. 

Meg: Yeah. And you had, and it was a pitch first. It was a pitch first.

Joe Forte: Well, we, yeah, we've we we had the idea with which is based on a idea from a friend of ours, Fabian Suarez, in Paris.

Meg: And he's also a listener and we hope to have on the show. I know him. I met him when I was in Paris last time. 

Joe Forte: Yeah. So, you know, Fabian trusted Meg and I to take this forward. And so we came up with a pitch that took months. We had to pitch it to Netflix. That took some time and pitched it and then, you know, have been now since January building the script.

So, so you took many, many pieces to get to. But I, I think like, that's exciting. Like, you know, I, I, I have no doubt what Meg was gonna gimme was gonna be great. You know what I mean? Because Meg's a great writer. Mm-hmm. And, and all the stuff underneath it is, you know, like there. So it's time to have fun by writing the actual draft, you know.

Lorien: So when you, you come back with a pitch, you're like, great, okay, now we have to write the movie. And you're working on outlining it, right? Because there are, do you just have a first draft to deliver or are you delivering steps before the first draft? And then how do you go from, what is the outlining process with the two of you? How does that work? Practically speaking,

Meg: this particular deal, we just need to deliver a draft. We have mm-hmm. Have had deals. We have to deliver an outline which has pros and cons. 

Joe Forte: And we're also attached as the directors, you know, for now. So we try and build something that we can actually make. 

So there's a lot of discussion about, you know, like, I mean, we freeform and we're, we're always following the character and the want and the theme and you know, and there's some push and pull and taffy making between the two of us of like. You know, what direction is it gonna go? You know, I, I mean, it's a love story.

So there's a boy and a girl and we both get you like big votes on either side, you know?

Meg: Yeah. We do have arguments. I'm not gonna let her be that. Yeah. Some princess at a tower.

Joe Forte: Yeah. There, there are, you know, so we push each other in, in ways that are like, give in some ways, giving each other more permission in, in other words, you know, sort and I, I, it's hard to describe, but you know, it just.

Tear it up and put it together, tear it up and put it together, tear it up and put it together. Have a moment where you're like, no, we have to completely change the point of view. Oh shit. You know, like, and then really start over again with like, it's not her point of view, it's his point of view. To get into, you know, blah, blah, blah. 

So, I, I think we just, you just have to ride those waves, you know? You just have to like…

Meg: Well its interesting, you, we broke it together starting the movie from her point of view. And that's how the pitch is. But then when you start writing, you're like, yeah, this doesn't work. This, there's just way too much.

This is just too dense, it's too much backstory. It's gonna take forever to actually get to the phone and, 

Joe Forte: And I can't be the one to say, Hey, let's change it from the girl's point of view to the guy's point of view. Yeah, but Meg says that and I'm like, mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I think that could be the problem. But it's right. It's right. Yes.

Meg: And then we redid the whole thing.

Lorien: So I'm so interested in the practical aspect of it, right? Like Tara, like at Pixar we had cards on a board and then we had note takers. And you know when, when I've worked with a partner before, it's a lot of notes and exchanges and everyone's seeing everything.

So are you up in front of the whiteboard? Graph, you know, here's where the midpoint is and drawing the…

Meg: I'm too lazy for cards. Like I love that at Pixar, but I'm way too lazy to write out all those cards. So I, I like the a, a whiteboard because you can just erase it with your thumb and re write the thing we've used, like it's easy.

Joe Forte: But we, we've used everything. You know, we did. There was a moment where it was getting so confusing that we used cards on mural, right? There were times when it was on the whiteboard. There were times when it was just conversation and. Capturing things. I think the hardest thing is knowing that you have to take apart something you sold.

And, and come at it from a different way. But again, like all of those iterations that you've done in whiteboard and on the, and whatever, suddenly you have all these pieces floating around. And I think the thing that that really changed this draft is we decided, Meg had an idea and it was like. We said, okay, we don't know how we're gonna make that idea work, but that's absolutely what we're driving the whole movie towards.

And we're just gonna put this stake in the ground and we don't know how we're gonna get there. Like there's no way forward. But it's so good that that's what we're driving towards. And then things started to, you know, okay, we'll take this from that draft that from that draft, and now you have three stakes.

And then you try and. Connect the connective tissue and you know, you go back and forth, but it's all such good work for like, you know, suddenly you're looking at the story through the third tertiary character, you know, who's not in the movie at all, but suddenly what they have to do defines the character and you go all the way backward, you know, so.

I think it's just really flexible, fluid mind.

Meg: Yeah. You have to be willing to throw it up in the air again, you know? And like, you know, like right now when I let him read my pages, part of my brain is like, you might have to throw this all up in the air again if, if it doesn't work. 'cause I have no objectivity right now.

But he does. Which is also why we do it this way. So that's one of us always can grab some objectivity 'cause you've been away from it for a few days. But that objectivity might mean after all this work, all these versions. You've gotta do it again. You've gotta go, okay, it doesn't work. This whole construct of this plot is too dense.

So I think right now we'll just go forward, even if it is, because at this point we do have a due date. But I think in terms of the question of. Cards or on the board, the whiteboard my brain uses for the big movements, right? Like this is where we start. This is where they're gonna go. This is the end of act one.

Here's two A, just really generally, here's the midpoint, here's two B. You know, generally here's where, and then the cards are, because we realize we have so many characters and they have to move through this whiteboard. All of them.

Joe Forte: But you've gotten some sense of stakes, right? Meaning stakes in the ground so that you can now move to those cards.

Meg: And then the cards are like color coded, like this is her dad and this is her and this is their relationship. And so you can now get very detailed in terms of how are they moving through this big thing that you wrote on the whiteboard. And then you find things that don't work. And but you know, there will come a point where.

We're gonna hand this, which I think it's gonna be too long, but that's okay at this point to our manager and he will read it and give us notes. We might give it to friends, like create our own round table to get notes. And then, you know, that's dangerous because if it's too close to your due date.

Right. You might be like, oh my God, those are very big notes. But at least you know what's coming when you turn it in, right? You can try to fix it, but at least you know it's coming when you turn it in.

Lorien: So how do you separate the partnership you have as writers and the partnership you have as parents and in a marriage?

And it's, and I mean like I imagine that you need some like, okay, we're done working for the day. Right. And now we're gonna go have a different conversation. But I imagine there might be some crossover, like, why are you reading that book? You should be writing pages. Or, you know, like, why are, you know, that, that, that, that you know, just being in a…

Meg: It is different because you're writing with someone who doesn't live in the same house, you don't know what they did all day.

Lorien: No. I just know that they're gonna deliver me pages by a certain date and I don't care how they get there. 

Meg: Exactly. 

Lorien: You know? So tell me the truth. How is it really? Because it seems to me to be very I, I couldn't do it.

Joe Forte: I, I, I, I, I think we have our ups and downs, you know, we have moments, but I, I just think like the mission is so great that for us to argue over stuff that doesn't matter is the waste.

Like we're getting to tell a story. Mm-hmm. You know, we love the story that we're telling, like keep our eyes on the story. So. I don't feel like the arguments are that long. They're more like you know, we both kind of share the same taste than we, you know, come up. Like literally the, like we've been, our careers parallel each other for a long, long time, so we have the same language, I'm sure.

So, you know, I just think it's like, to me, the biggest problems come out of exhaustion, you know, irritation. Speaking in a manner that's not productive, you know, and just like both of us agreeing to say, my bad, you know, it's not, you know, this is happening narrating your meltdown, you know, and you know, we have this thing like padded room.

You know, you're, you're like, you're like, oh, oh, oh, oh. You're not yelling at me. You are yelling at the universe, oh, okay, let's go in the padded room together and I'll sit here and listen and vice versa. You know? And that's like years and years and years and years and years and years of developing like these, yeah.

Micro processes that we're not even aware of that help us navigate. Exactly what you're saying. You know, like we are married, we do have kids, and we both have egos and want to do great work and be distinct. Mm-hmm. You know. 

Meg: And the most important thing of that is to be honest about what's happening inside of you, which means you first have to be honest with yourself so that you can therefore communicate it to the other person, like I was able to say this morning.

It took me a while for, and he was patient to let me download, I'm anxious about this, that's happening at school, and I gotta do this and this ball's in the air. And I dropped that ball and I didn't do that. And this meeting I didn't prepare for enough. And, and then slowly I'm like, oh, no, no, actually I'm nervous that you haven't read the pages. 

And to, he asked to give me space. Because I can't do that in my head to say it out loud and then be open enough at whatever, nine o'clock in the morning or what, eight 30 to say, okay, I hear you. Right? Like, you just have to be honest about what's going on. And so much, so much of that is being honest with yourself about what's going on.

Like, do you need reassurance? Is that really what you need? You know, what are you really worried about underneath all of the excuses. And you have to create that space for each other to, to not know and to fumble around.

Joe Forte: And a hundred percent we have our bad moments. You know, it's really like just repairing and attaching and don't break it, you know? Just don't break it.

Lorien: Yeah, I, when I've written with friends, my goal has always been the friendship is the most important thing. Like, this is a project that we get to work on together, but at the end of the day, right, I want this person in my life to be a positive relationship like Megan and I working on this podcast together, and like, where's the hill I'm gonna die on There?

Aren't, there aren't really any, I think, no, because. At the end, I want to still be friends with me and you. That's the hill. We die on the friendship's, the hill we die on. Like, is this worth our friendship? And the answer is always no. And I think in marriage the stakes are a little higher, but it's, it's good to hear that you're applying the positive stuff that you have built over the years.

It's not good. It's encouraging that this can be a successful thing that you take, which is already working in the relationship and apply it to the, the working relationship, which seems tricky. I mean, it sounds so great when you say it out loud, but like, you know, writing Well, there are, 

Meg: I'm sure there's moments that Joe would like to talk to his wife and not his writing partner, like about his writing partner. I'm, that's just human nature.

Joe Forte: I talked to my writing partner about my writing partner. I…

Meg: Joe is very direct. I'm a little bit more hold it in.

Joe Forte: And again, I just wanna say it's 30 years, you know? Like we, we have always collaborated strategically and you know, like, I'll push your boulder, you push my boulder, but I don't think we could have written together, you know, when I was building my career.

And then I think, you know, Meg wanted to build her career. And that was important that she do it, you know, for herself on her own, you know, her, her whole thing. And, and then you know, but you know, you're there to create the space for the person. And then I think we've come together and be like, okay, well I'm a whole person.

You're a whole person. You know, what can we like put together here? That's not me or you, but like, that's what a collaboration is, is like, what is the. Alchemy that's gonna happen. And that's like lava and fire and sparks and mm-hmm. 

Meg: Well, and it's also how, how you approach story. Like we're realizing, 'cause we've, you know, you develop as you write, right?

So I think I started very indie because I had been trained by Jodi Foster and. But I write a certain way. I just do like, it's just now embedded in my brain. It's just like a scene can be so many pages, it's gotta go, it's gotta be, you know, it's, it has to be active, blah, blah, blah, blah. Very snappy, which is kind of not indie.

So Joe's really, really good at the kind of indie character moments and feeling, right? So you, you find a third language, I guess is what I'm saying. And if you go into a partnership saying, thinking it's gonna be all your language and your way. That's not gonna work because it's never gonna be either of your ways.

We're trying to find that third way of telling a story that is both of us and the, the melding together and what we each do well. And I think if you're out there and you've got a writing partner and you never have that feeling of, oh my God, I love that when they say something or pitch something, you have to think about that because that's why you're in it.

Right? Like, oh my, oh my gosh, that's such a great idea. I love that. Like we just this morning. I had written in the document, I don't know why this is special, like what are we doing here, like in terms of the location. And then I just kept going because I don't have time to figure that out. I'm just trying to chunk it out.

And Joe threw out an idea of what could make it special and I was like, yep, that's it. Oh my God. That's it. That's totally it. That's all we have to do. It's not complicated, it's just dead on perfect. So that's, you have, you need that in the relationship when you're writing with somebody that you really love and appreciate.

What they're bringing onto to the other side. And if you're not getting that in your relationship, you have to, I would look at it as why you are collaborating with this person. What are they bringing to the, to the party?

Joe Forte: And whether, you know, just to sort of reiterate what makes saying like. And that, no pun intended, but I come from the outside in and Meg comes from the inside out, literally.

So I, you know, am always looking for the way the character's behaving and I get to feeling through behavior, how are they behaving, why are they acting that way? And Meg gets to behavior through feeling, how do they feel? You know, she's really able to get to that kind of empathetic. Character place, and I find it a little bit more, but when you're writing something like we're writing, which is like, well, it's cinema, right?

Like it's the interior state meets an exterior action that tells the story. And I think that's really fun. It's like if we were two musicians, that's when we cook, you know?

Joe Forte: We're complimenting that, that very same thing, but it's like two different ways of getting at it. And it creates dimension and you know. Hopefully the script's any good.

Meg: I know after all this building, oh my. Brilliant.

Joe Forte: We're just talking about how excited we are about the process, not the script. We don't, I know the…

Meg: See, did you see our writer brains just go, hold on a minute. Wait. We're talking about how great this project is and it's gonna out, pull back, pull back, pull back, pull back, pull.

But I wanna say that Joe is a director, so he often, you know, he has directed and he's a visual artist, and so he really can also talk about. Sometimes this is a fun thing we have, like I do not care about choreography. I care about the emotion and the characters and how things are moving. But he's a director, so in his mind he's like.

Like, how does this work? Like who's walking where and where and I'm like, I don't care. Like, 

Lorien: Do you like bike scenes, Joe? Or, or party scenes or…

Joe Forte: Well, we're, we're just doing a scene at a, at a car and like everybody's getting out outside of different doors. And I'm like, 

Lorien: You gotta know who's getting out of the car and where they're going.

Joe Forte: Well, well the guy, the guy's of la he's talking to all these. It's just like,

Meg: I don't care. But he cares and he should care. It's again, this complimentary, right? Like to have somebody who is really a visual. Artistic person…

Joe Forte: But it's also like, you know, just can this be put up on its feet? I'm, I'm not going to get bogged down in that, but it's like, it's just like kicking the tires a little bit.

Like, can, can we do this? Can this actually be pulled off? Okay. And by the way, that conversation leads to maybe missing something that Meg was thinking, you know, then you're teasing out. You're not like loading onto the scene. You're coming into the scene and asking questions and. And then, you know, I just think like things that are confusing can become a way to become, you know, solidarity, right?

It's like investigating what your partner is, is going for and, and thinking about. And I think that I. You know, you, you reach unchartered places that way.

Lorien: Yeah. I think that a lot of what we're talking about applies to being a mentor at a retreat as well. That when you're working with somebody, a writer, no matter their experience or giving notes to somebody, you're trying to create that third way you're trying to, you're trying to buff each excited about the other person's ideas, add, ask questions, that it really isn't.

I mean, I've never approached mentorship where I'm like, I'm gonna tell you how it should go. 'cause that's not fun for me. And I don't think it's fun to hear. So you want to have a conversation with the person so that it's more of a collaboration. And I, you know, Meg mentored me, so I feel like I learned from one of the best.

So I, I'm sure you agree with me, Meg, right? 

Meg: Oh, sure, sure, sure. 

No pressure. No pressure. But that it is that sort of third way that you're looking for. You're looking for someone to come in and enhance, and the best way to show up as somebody who's getting notes at a retreat is that, is to be open to that.

Otherwise, why are you there?

Meg: I agree. from the mentor point of view, Joe and I both approach it with questions. It's not our project, it's your project. We have thoughts, we have a lot of questions, and we might have an idea of what we think it should be, but we're not going to just say that.

We just are gonna get there with questions and always, always. Whether they're pros or emerging, they say something that I'm like, oh, oh, that's what you're trying to do. Yeah, exactly. We just did a retreat where we were writing at the same time, but in the mornings we would talk to other writers and these were pros and they were amazing, and they might be listening now.

And to them we wanna say, you are all rock stars. They were so open, they were so into it. Just incredible creative beings and such a privilege to work with them. And you know. I, I, I really thought I, I, and then I just said, well, just who's, who's the actor in your wildest dreams that would play this part?

And when they told me, I was like, oh my gosh, I've totally got this all wrong. I had a totally different actor in my head, so I just feel like you have to flow that. But the only way that works for your mentor. To help you tell your story is like these rockstar writers that you have to be open, you have to be open to the questions and changing it.

And the one thing I'll say, and then I'll let Joe jump in, is I was reading a book 'cause he, like I said, I read a fiction book every morning to, and in the book, the girl said that she wants to tattoo on her arm the Latin phrase that means dare to know. And I was like, oh my God. That is it in a nutshell.

If you're gonna go into a retreat as a writer and or you're gonna go give your script to your writing partner like I did, or you're going to do anything that, you're gonna put your work out there, what you're doing is you have to dare to know, dare to know what the feedback's going to be. Dare to know that view of your work.

And therefore of yourself and where you are. I just thought that was so profound. It, I, it's very much helped my defensive little kid in me that we're gonna dare to know this. This is our choice and we're gonna be daring and brave to know what the questions are. And that's a, that, that means you are ultimately capable, right?

If you're daring to know you are therefore capable of handling whatever comes back. It, you can handle it. You, you're a writer. You can dare to know and you can dare to therefore move and change and evolve the story. Joe, how was your experience at the retreat and working with writers?

Joe Forte: Well, you know, I always go in nervous.

Because I want to be of service and you know, you want to do a good job. You know, when somebody, when you're reading a script, I take it as a big responsibility. And but I think that you know, once you start talking and as the mentor, it is our job to create a, a safe space and a welcoming space and to signal very quickly that.

We're not competing, you know, we're, we're not there to judge, we're there to be helpful. You know, I think it's different. I, I always try and find out what level the writer's at because it's just not the same for everybody. You know, at first script or, you know, you've been doing this for a while. I mean, sometimes it's, you know, just being, fi finding the way, you know, finding your teacher, finding the way that you can finally hear it, that changes the work. You know, maybe you're hearing the, the, the information for the first time, but you know, it's more than obvious that the key is that you come open and you at least recognize when you're getting defensive.

And try and bring yourself back. The, I think the key is like, you don't have to solve it in the conversations. You just have to listen and let it wash over you. You don't have to rewrite your script while somebody's talking to you. Just be with the conversation and, you know, like, I don't know, just whatever your technique is for getting yourself to stay present.

Is gonna be your biggest asset. And, and, you know, you will be challenged, but find a way to be open.

Meg: I think that there is a, you can tell when you're a mentor, when you're giving notes to an emerging writer versus a pro in that, that pro has had many, many experiences of this. So they have a muscle to do it, right?

They have that, they have the capability because they have worked out at. Holding that, that open space and being able to allow it to move and flow into something else. And so working with these pro writers, all of them were able to do that. The younger one of them I think had a harder time. Again, not because she's not a good writer or because of any other than she just, I think it was a new experience for her versus emerging writers who I've, I've also done retreats with who are amazing.

You can kind of see this strange shutdown starting, which I don't think is necessarily, I think it's about, oh my God. Then what is it like, it's a, wait a minute, but I. Even though they're asking questions, so they seem to wanna know the answer, they don't really want to know the answer. They really want you to say, no, you're right.

And, and it's some sort of validation of them. Versus what we're actually talking about, which is a story that's moving and, and, and shifting. And not to say that pro riders don't have that level of validation for themselves too. 'cause of course we do. We're human beings, but it's just this muscle to be able, even when we do it on our workshop site.

And you guys are pitching ideas to us when it's your first time, we know Lorraine, and I know it's gonna be harder for your brain. To not to, to not hold on tightly to, oh my God, but I wrote this whole thing and I like it. What are you talking about? Why would you ask me that question? 

Lorien: I like it.

Going to the retreats that are like. I like the retreat I go to in Italy, which I'm going to in a month, which I'm very excited about. That's two weeks long, so that you have those initial meetings and then they can go think about it and process it and talk about it with other writers, and then come back and say like, okay.

I, I didn't hear you. I have these questions rather than just getting a one time feedback session. It's really helpful to be in that environment, I think, where all you're really doing is working on other people's scripts and working on your own scripts and I think it's really helpful when you go to a retreat or and engage in any sort of mentorship thing is knowing what you're willing to do with that particular project.

In terms of the work you're willing to put into it the time you actually have, what your life is actually like, and what the goal, what your goal is for that project. Like, okay, I'm gonna submit this to a con contest, so I'm not willing to do much, many notes because it's due next week. So let's just do top level or.

I want this to be really good. I wanna submit this to a producer who's gonna read it and maybe finance it. That's a different kind of expectation that you have for it. So it's really helpful to understand from a mentor's point of view, like what are you wanting to do with this? Because just making it good.

Is not a clear plaque goal for me as someone who's helping you on your act two of, you know, writing the script. So I find that's really helpful. 

Joe Forte: I think that's good to come in with a question about the material itself. You know, and maybe it's specifically about the material, but it could be sort of a broader story mechanic.

Like, how do I get better at writing arcs, you know, does my character arc, you know, or some fundamental question. That you already have ready to answer. If you don't think there's any question to answer, you're not even gonna be open, right? Because there's nothing you're not seeking. And the other thing is set an intention for yourself that you can achieve.

So like a terrible intention is I'm gonna get an agent, right? You, you have no control over that. But what's a more you know, tangible thing that you can control? Like, you know, I'm gonna meet three people. Or I'm gonna speak up. You know, what, what some, some something that you can actually execute.

And, and I think that takes away a lot of the anxiety because it's achievable. You know, I'm gonna get through three days and not hide in my room, or, you know, whatever it is.

Lorien: Which I think is the difference between having a plot goal, something that you can actually do something about rather than having a, I'm gonna get an agent, which means being validated in the industry, right?

It's like, I'm gonna meet three people, I'm gonna tell three people out loud. I'm a writer. That's an actual thing you can go out and do, and it might be really hard, but you're accomplishing it. Getting an agent, like you said, is, who, how every single person who has an agent has a different way of having gotten there.

So yeah. Plot, it's about plot, everybody plot, plotty. Plot, plot, plot.

So what advice do you have for somebody who is starting who's gonna be a mentor for the first time, who's been asked like, Hey, will you be a mentor at this retreat? And then you do the, oh my God, am I qualified or, thank God you're finally asking me whatever response you're having. What advice? 

Meg: First all the doubt comes in and all the imposter syndrome starts. Then after that, which was a whole show in and of itself I. Again, I think it's really be prepared, having obviously really deep read. Take your notes. I do page notes. I never ever have given them to the writer ever, but it's more for my brain to start tracking something that I'm, I didn't understand this.

Where is she? This seems repetitive, like I don't think it's for the writer. I think it's for me in my brain to start churning up the bigger questions, which I can then do at the end of the read. I always come in with my three big questions or concerns or even an idea, but I. As long as you have that and then know that you're gonna have a conversation with this person, you're not gonna dictate to them.

'cause I've not, well, I've not been to a retreat where that's what they want. They want you to dictate it. They want you to actually share your questions and insights. But really it's still that. That writer's work. And I've had both, you know, I've been a writer on the other side at a lab where the person was very arrogant and basically told us your script is wrong and it, it doesn't, you know, that's not how you do it.

And basically told us how to write the script and. Unhelpful. You know, it, it's insights that I can then try to go pull out myself in terms of, but that's not what the movie we wanted to make. Those people generally don't get invited back to, to retreats. But I will, I will be honest though. There are, I have worked with writers who are so adamant that what they have is all that there is that I have pushed and said, you know.

Now the language that I have, which I didn't at this one point, is just as a writing experiment, just as you know, somebody taught us a thought experiment. Why don't you go try that for an hour? At the time I said, I really think you should do that, just to see, which I don't think was that helpful for that person.

But I think I pushed too hard. I pushed too far. But it, what I meant was experiment. You've, what if you got out of this lane? I know you think it means falling off a cliff, but what are you gonna discover on the way down? Like just try and then come back because I thought there was a blind spot and you're, as a mentor, you can see the blind spot sometimes and it's really tricky because they don't wanna see it.

That's why it's blind. So you have to be a bit careful. What about you, Joe?

Joe Forte: I think it's always great to ask them why they wrote the script, what inspired them, you know, to get on footing with them. It's it's an icebreaker. It like, lets you tune to the person no matter what. You know, you think about the material and then you know, obviously we talk about positive.

I, I, I might ask who the audience is. I might, you know, ask big questions. But yeah, it's, it's you know, usually it's just the, the conversation finds itself and it works around things like goal arc, you know, want you know, tone, your tone is changing. So I think if you could just get on a kind of a peer footing with your writer and have a kind of a peer conversation.

You know, some writers, again, like, maybe this is their first script and they don't have the vocabulary in the toolkit, and they may get that blank look, you know, so just tune in with them. And I try and feel like it's my responsibility that if I'm gonna throw out an idea or, you know, a want or something that maybe I can.

Play a couple of bars and you know, say like this, this is how this could work. You know, you could put this up on its feet, you know, here are the dots that could be connected, but then go right back to them. Is that what you're trying, that initial question? You know, I might connect the dots through the, the father story.

You're really interested in the, you know, the bird. Hmm. So, you know, tuning it to the, the, the writer and their, you know, ambition and then always working off of that as your sounding board, I think puts you on solid footing. And, you know, if, if, if you do have to push, then you push and it's up to them.

You know, somebody who wanna go there. That's not right. 

Meg: There is another school of thought, there is another school of thought. Like I did have a writer once say to me, who was in a. A collective that I have for pro writers. It's all just friends getting together. And he left the collective 'cause He was like, you guys are too nice.

You guys are just too supportive. And just, I want somebody who beats me up, who like pushes me and tells me straight out, just tell me straight out. Just tell me it sucks. No. So there are writers,

Joe Forte: But that was a pro. That's a pro.

Meg: It's a pro. No, it's a pro. But I'm just saying. No.

Joe Forte: But that was a, a, a pro group of people sitting around giving notes.

Meg: I am saying there is, there are people who want just gimme the list. Sure. And that's okay if you know everybody's brain differently.

Joe Forte: I think we believe that we should, you know, as a mentor, you're there to push somebody, you know, but it's like, it is, it is it is yours to navigate, right? Like you just, you, you have to read the situation and, and hopefully you're, you're, you're there for them and they wanna break through something, you can help them.

I've, I've certainly had those too.

Lorien: What you said, Joe, about meeting as peers like the mentor, meeting the writer as a peer, I think it's important to have the writer meet the mentor as a peer as well, especially if you're a writer to sort of let go of. Oh, you're, you've done this or you've done this.

Like, we're all doing the same thing. We've just had different kinds of experiences. Right. And that, because that gets in the way of the relationship, like the nervousness or the expectation or the I'm gonna disappoint you or I'm gonna look bad. 'cause I don't know. It's like, no, no, no. We're all, we're all just writers here.

I'm in this position because I have this experience, but that doesn't mean I still don't have a lot to learn from you too. And your experience in other ways. Like I, I've been to retreats where I've gotten, you know, I've, I've like, shared an idea of mine and gotten great ideas, you know, from the other writers.

So it's it's it's, it's all, we're all writers and I think that's really important to remember when you're getting. A mentorship from another writer. I'm saying this out loud to all the people who would be joining me in Italy in a couple of weeks. So, yeah. But anyway, so I like the retreats where I get invited to, like Italy or Australia.

So here's some other places I'd like to be invited just for no particular reason. Greece France, Spain. South America, China, Japan, Japan. Just hypothetically, if anyone happens to be interested, you know, I'm, I could be swayed. That's my blog for myself. Now I have…

Joe Forte: The one 800 number is flashing across the screen.

Lorien: Screenwriting life at gmail.com. No, I really like going to retreats, although I have found that I have to be more careful about how I'm spending my time these days. 'cause there really is like, oh great, I'll go to retreat and mentor, but I forget that I, you know, I have to read very carefully the energy it takes to commit to fully giving everything I have to the writers.

And I just decided recently not to go to a retreat that I usually go to because I just. I have too many other things, too many other things going on. 

Meg: And so I had to prioritize myself. We were still writing, but it is, it was harder because you’ve given out four hours of creativity to the other team and now you've gotta go.

Sometimes it was great 'cause it got you kind of fired up and you could move in and sometimes you were like, oh, I'm tired. But we still did. We still wrote there.

Lorien: Yeah. Well, I mean, it sounds like you were in a great place too, so it doesn't hurt. When you look out the window and you're like, ah…

Meg: And somebody's making you food.

Lorien: Yes, there is some delight about it, but it is work. All right. I wanna hear a funny story from from your trip recently. What funny thing happened? 

Meg: Okay. I'm gonna tell you a funny thing, which I don't know if we'll use it or not. Okay. So we, we, we taught in, out near Florence, and then we came in for two days to Milan and I went and spoke at Milan University, sacred Heart and Great Place.

Like the, the, the campus is literally an old monastery. It's. Spectacularly beautiful. You can't believe it. But you know, I'm a writer, so I just assume I'm gonna go kind of like Austin. You go, you do your talk, and then you say hi to people and then you, that's it. Right? So I also have terrible allergies, so my eyes are completely red, they're swollen.

I've lost some of my makeup and I'm like, well, what does it matter? Like really, let's just go and talk to people like, okay. There are so many photographers, I cannot even tell you how many photographers there were for hours taking me different places in the monastery to take my picture. I literally look like I've been stung by a bee in my eyeballs.

I am so swollen, especially from all the wheat and pasta. I have no hardly any makeup on. I am saying things to people who don't speak English like, can you please like, I don't know, make me look better or not? It was a woman's nightmare. It was a nightmare till finally I'm gonna talk and they're still there taking pictures.

And I literally looked at them and I was like, I'm a writer from America. Nobody cares about writers in America. You need to leave. I was like, nice. I, I told I, they were very nice, but I just was overwhelmed by the attention. It wasn't what I was used to and ugh. Oh my God. I don't know if that's funny or sad.

Lorien: that's funny because it shows how human you are and how Ill-prepared writers are to be in the public. What What

Meg: What is happening? What is happening? I don't know. But Jeff, also, as the producer, is there anything you think?

Jeff Graham: Just because I've done some mentoring, it's in his story too. That's where I met all of you. 

I think also like trying to get to know the writer apart from their story too can be really helpful because those can be clues as to what they're interested in as storytellers. Inevitably we talk about all this on the show all the time, like bringing your own experience in lava and autobiographic and autobiography into your work.

You don't wanna be nosy and you don't wanna be pushy, but asking about people's interests and getting to know them, it's, I feel like, and it's funny 'cause I'm, I've stolen this straight from the Lorien McKenna Playbook. But I've noticed the more sadist stories I go to, the more like suddenly my sessions feel kind of emotional and like maybe my writer will open up and start crying about something and I'll be like, what's different?

I'm like, oh yeah, I've been with them. 

Lorien: I no longer celebrate making writers cry. I get right to that edge and then I pull them back because yeah, that once someone starts crying,

Jeff Graham: Well, I don't even try it just – I'm like, what changed? And I'm like, oh yeah, I've been working with Meg and Lorien for like three or four years.

But, but what it is really is it's about if you get to know the writer, you can dig into that really specific personal thing that, that's the reason they got selected for the retreat is 'cause there's something unique and personal and specific that only that writer can bring. And that's kind of typically the magic of their work.

So it's a line, you wanna be careful, you don't wanna be nosy, but gently getting to know your writer can be helpful in those situations.

Meg: And then, you know, for the writers who are planning to go to these, know that that could happen. They, it can get very deep. It can get, you're being asked to be vulnerable and yes, vulnerable with a stranger who read your work.

But I do think most of these retreats choose mentors that are very supportive and are are there for a reason because they're good at this.

Jeff Graham: And it's also, so I was just gonna say, you have the right, as a writer, if you're being asked stuff by your mentor that you feel like is too touchy, you totally have the right to say like, you know, I'm not totally ready to talk about that right now.

Lorien: Just to know that, yeah. Boundaries. Those are good. Especially when you're living in a small community, like in a retreat environment. Jonathan, did you have something?

Jonathan: Yeah, I was gonna say either from the perspective of you all as the mentor or if you're on the mentee side. Just curious about the end – what you do at the end, whether it's the last, in terms of how you wrap things up, or sort of what's appropriate post-retreat in terms of keeping in touch with people?

Meg: At the end, I mean, well, if it's a retreat where you've only got to talk to them once you're, you know, maybe gonna say goodbye and good luck, but you've only had a chance to talk to them once, so you might check in with them again.

How'd it go? Did any, did you think about that? But if I, like, I agree with Lorien and I like the retreats where you're going back again and again and again because you hear what they got, what they didn't. And in those, I think that I, you know, Joe, we pretty much spent the last session. Kind of wrapping it up, wouldn't you say?

Joe Forte: I mean, yeah, most of the TR retreats I, I've been on, it's, you know, you read, you get you, you're an hour and a half with the writer. But the ones that are multi-day, I think the wrap up is, you know, you're, you're crescendoing to some, you know, place in the, in the process where the writer is hopefully leaving, like with a plan and, and an idea of what they're gonna do.

And I feel like. That's, you know, that, that, that's the best you can do. You know, I mean, if I really like the person and hit it off, I'll offer to keep in touch, you know, but I think it's important to let the mentor do that. They've got eight people, or you know, however many, so, you know, just, you know, respect their time.

Which most do, and I, I think going back to what we were talking about earlier about, you know, the mentee is yeah, know that the, the mentor is, you know, coming in, in a lot of cases, volunteering their time or, you know, and, and spending a lot of time writing, thinking about it. So, you know, there's hopefully there's a respectful exchange going both ways, but I've always found that, you know, the, the writers understand that and, and are, are usually very gracious.

Lorien: You should say never contact me again. I regret coming and I quit.

Joe Forte: Before you even ask them what their script is about,

Lorien: I quit. I'm just here for the food. I'm kidding. I feel dark today. Sorry. Okay.

Meg: I just wanna say in terms of follow up, that's also why I like our workshop site, because we can follow up, we can say, okay, you guys pitched that. What happened? Did it work? Did it not work? Like I, I love that being able to find out. I. Where it went or, or what happened.

Lorien: And we have had a couple of people like come back on the q and as and raise their hand just to say like, Hey, I did the story workshop and this is the update. Or even on the story workshop. It's really it feels good. It's very good to know that there is some movement and in their project. 

All right, Joe, it's the end of the show when we ask every guest the same three questions.

Joe Forte: Oh. I didn't know this was coming either. Go ahead.

Lorien: Here's the first question. One, what number one brings you the most joy when it comes to writing and or directing?

Joe Forte: Well, what brings me the most joy when it comes to writing and directing? I think conceiving the project I. And finishing the project and everything else in the way is just an illusion, you know? And you know, shiny, shiny, shiny, shiny, throw it away. Get, get rid of it. This is going to be bye. You know,

The, the, the wide open end of the funnel where everything is possible is so much fun.

And then, you know, feeling that click. When you know, like all that work has clicked into a place where, you know, this is the movie and that happens in different phases from the outline to a pitch to, you know, the actual script. 

Meg: Yeah, I think that's fair. Okay. The next question is, what pisses you off about writing and or directing?

Joe Forte: Gee. I don't know. I guess you have to love the whole thing. You know? It's just, it's like it's all so hard that you, you better make friends with, you know, I. Of it. I mean, I just guess like as a human being, I, you know, people who are not empathetic and arrogant and coming into the process without any kind of understanding of, you know, what it took to get there.

But I haven't experienced that in, in, in a long time. You know, I mean, it, it, once you get inside the professional community people do have a baseline understanding about how hard it is. So, you know, it, it, sometimes it's just. People, politics, things that are just, you know, unfortunate, but, you know, we're professionals, so that's part of the game you, I keto, that you put it into a place where it works for you and ignore it and, you know, so, it's, it's all hard.

And so I just enjoy, you know, trying to solve the problems. It's all problems day by day. Fix, fix, solve a problem, solve a problem, solve a problem.

Lorien: Right. If you could go back in time and have coffee with your younger self right before you broke, like remember him

Joe Forte: Right before I broke?

Lorien: Yeah. Not broke mentally, but you know.

Joe Forte: No I get it.

Lorien: You know?

Joe Forte: Yeah.

Lorien: Broke into the biz.

Joe Forte: Yeah.

Lorien: What advice would you give him?

Joe Forte: I guess it's just, you know, like, I guess what I tell myself now is just, you know, you really can trust your instincts. Your instincts are your best guide and maybe the anxiety that comes from trying to talk yourself out of your instincts, you know?

And I get through most days by you know, like leaning into that excellent feeling that your instincts are right. And so I think I've always leaned into my instincts, but it's more about. My relationship with the anxiety that comes with being out over your skis or going down the hill super fast or, you know, jumping into the void.

But I just think it's an inevitable part of the job. So, you know, making peace with that. It's rinse and repeat. Over and over again. You know, every, every project is a great new opportunity to embarrass yourself or, or drive the ball down the field and score, you know, it's so, it's sports.

Lorien: What's your favorite swear word?

Joe Forte: My favorite swear word.

Meg: This is a new question.

Joe Forte: Oh yeah. I think, you know, I go with, fuck. I mean, fuck's just an awesome word. It's, you know, it's efficient. It can be used in so many different ways. It's flexible, it's funny, it's lovely. All parts of

Lorien:  All parts of speech.

Joe Forte: I just, it's an everything word. Yes. So, you know. Like, fuck, this was fun.

Lorien: Fuck yeah.

Joe Forte: Holy fuck. Can't believe how long it took you guys to invite me to be on your fucking show.

Lorien: We wanted to get really good at what we do before we had you on. 

Joe Forte: You guys are the fucking best. You're so fucking good. You're all so fucking good.

Lorien: Wait, Joe, you're Italian?

Joe Forte: I'm throwing a little Jersey. What the fuck? Okay. Well thank you for having me. This was enjoyable.

Meg: Thanks Joe for coming on. Thank you. Thanks so much to Joe for coming on the show and be sure to come over to our workshop site. We're really having a lot of fun over there.

Lorien: And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.