250 | Jac Schaeffer (WandaVision, Agatha All Along): Having a “Take” When Pitching on IP — or Anything

When you’re pitching — whether it’s on studio IP or your own original idea — what sets you apart is your take. But what does that actually mean?

This week, Jac Schaeffer (WandaVision, Agatha All Along) breaks it down. For Jac, a great take starts with the emotional core — “what is the deep down” that connects you to the material. From there, it’s about delivering a pitch only you could give: not necessarily linear or formulaic, but full of energy, essence, and personal vision.

We talk about how far is too far from the IP, how to navigate studio mandates, and how to protect your voice in rooms full of competing takes.

🎬 Jac’s first feature, TiMER, is now available to stream for free on Tubi!

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Lorien McKenna: Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Lorien McKenna, and today I'm really excited to talk to Jac Schaeffer, an Emmy and WGA award nominated writer, producer, director, and showrunner, best known for “WandaVision” and “Agatha All Along,” the two Marvel series that not only became pop culture sensations, but also revealed what's possible when a writer brings bold, specific, thematically rich ideas to the world of IP.

Jac's roots are in genre storytelling with a twist. She wrote and directed the sci-fi romcom “TiMer,” co-wrote “The Hustle” with Anne Hathaway and Rebel Wilson, and also has a story credit on “Black Widow.” But what makes Jac's work so exciting is how distinctly her voice shines through, even in the most massive franchises.

So welcome to the show, Jac. 

Jac Schaeffer: Thank you. Thank you so much. What a lovely introduction. I appreciate it. 

Lorien McKenna: Super happy to have you and before we started recording, I had a fan girl moment with Jac. So I'm just letting everyone know that this episode is gonna be one of those episodes. 

Jac Schaeffer: We love it. We love it.

Lorien McKenna: So before we get into the interview, what I really wanna talk about is what a take is, what it means to create a take – pitch one, make it work, all those things. But before that, we're gonna do Adventures in Screenwriting, which is, “How was our week?” And I'll start. 

So, some context for you, Jac, is that there are some parts of my personality that involve my love of chips. My daughter has Type 1 diabetes, so there's a lot of sugar in my house, and I have ADHD, and it's a constant struggle. Recently this week, because of some health issues, I had to stop eating chips and break up with chips, which is a big moment for me. That's terrible. I know. And I'm not interested in what substitutions are. Like no. I either want chips or I don't want chips. 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. That's devastating. I'm so sorry for you. 

Lorien McKenna: Yeah, it is. Thank you. Yeah. And I accidentally stopped eating sugar and processed food at the same time. And what I noticed was that my ADHD medication is actually working now, which has been devastating, because it's such a simple solution to being more focused and able to manage emotionally, regulate, manage my writing, produce myself – like I did the whole whiteboard, you know, with all my projects and a schedule and everything. 

And the world is on fire and everything is terrible and collapsing. But I don't feel super bad all the time. 

Jac Schaeffer: Great. 

Lorien McKenna: I don't wanna say good because – hoarding disaster, right? But it's, I know I'm old enough to know that this would be the case, but it's still shocking. That oh, all I had to do was, like, treat my body with some respect and I'd feel better. And I can only imagine what's gonna happen if I add regular exercise to it. 

Jac Schaeffer: I mean, it's a lesson we have to learn over and over again. Yes. It's a bummer, but yes. 

Lorien McKenna: But this one has stakes that are not just my health, but like family. So it's like I kind of have to fix it. 

Jac Schaeffer: Well, congratulations though on the organizational part. That must feel good. 

Lorien McKenna: It feels amazing because I don't know – you know, people with ADHD, it's like a constant, all the radio stations are on all at the same time. And so picking one station to listen to and then follow the story on, that is really hard. But this is –  I have control of the radio now.

Jac Schaeffer: That's wonderful. What a week. 

Lorien McKenna: That's what's been happening during my week and I'm crossing things off my list and getting them done and moving to the next thing. 

Jac Schaeffer: Wonderful. So chips be damned. Look at you getting it all together. Chips be damned.

Lorien McKenna: I know. I have to. I'm still really emotionally processing my breakup, though. It was toxic and had a lot of red flags. I had to let it go. How was your week? 

Jac Schaeffer: How was my week? It's been unusual. I've finished directing a pilot this past Saturday, so my week has been sort of reentry into normie life, which is really challenging.

It was a fabulous shoot, and I worked with all these incredible desert warriors and I fell in love with the desert. It was amazing and magical and life changing. And so, reintegrating has been difficult. Luckily I have a wonderful family and adorable dog and I live in a great town, and so it's been about trying to remember that I'm not a Jawa, I don't live in the desert, I actually live here.

And then I started post, so I'm in the edit, which is shifting your brain from, you know – I wear many different hats in my work. And so this is a hat that I haven't worn in almost a year, and sort of finding my feet in that has been part of my week. So, yeah. 

Lorien McKenna: So you went from full, bright sun, desert dweller to post, which is like an edit dark hoodie. 

Jac Schaeffer: You're so right. Like I just turned the lights on in here. I've had the curtains drawn, and also post is so sedentary, which is really challenging. And directing is so physical.

I forget every time that I'm doing it and I'm like, I'm up, I'm down. I'm acting things out. I'm running around. I also tend to run because you only have so much time, and so I will run if it means I get more takes. So, yeah.

Lorien McKenna: You mean physically run? 

Jac Schaeffer: Physically run, yeah. Yeah. Which I don't run in my life at all, but I'll run for an extra take for sure.

Lorien McKenna: Yeah. That's awesome. And then did it go like you hoped it would? Your shoot? 

Jac Schaeffer: You know, it was very challenging. We, you know, we could have used more time and more resources like everybody can. Every single time. So there are things, you know, I'm, because I'm in post, I'm filled with regrets, because that's always that for me. That's what early post is – “Oh, hey, here are all my mistakes and here are all my compromises, and here's the ways in which I was thwarted and the ways in which the light thwarted me and the ways in which we had weather interruptions,” and it's all just like in your face.

So those things didn't go how I wanted, but in terms of the experience that I was craving, it far exceeded my hopes and dreams. Mostly because it was a really spectacular group of people both crew and cast. It was blessed in that way. So yeah, it was amazing. I'm the luckiest.

Lorien McKenna: That's awesome. On the show we talk about the process of getting notes, which is, “Fuck you. And then, oh fuck me. And then, alright, what's next?” And it sounds like that is the same process along the whole journey. Like post, “Fuck you. I didn't get that shot, and the weather was crappy.” And then now it's, “Oh my God, I only have these things. Fuck me. And then, all right, I'm gonna make this work and it's gonna be even better somehow.” 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. Luckily I have a, you know, I'm working with an editor on this one who is very sympathetic to that. She will listen to my sob stories, which if I was an editor, I would be like, “I don't care what happened on set. Let's just work with the raw materials.” And Kelly is being very kind. Anytime I'm like, “Woe is me,” and head in my hands, she'll listen and be very sympathetic. So I'm lucky in that way, 

Lorien McKenna: But I wonder if it's more than that, too. She's listening, but she's also listening to what you wish you'd gotten and what you don't have. And so creatively solving that sort of problem, it's not just shot to shot, it's the mood of it. The rhythm of it, the feeling of it that feels like listening to that and processing that with you is probably really vital to her process. 

Jac Schaeffer: I would think, yeah. I also think she's, you know, it's helpful when she tells me you know what you're missing, but I am on the outside and I don't feel that lack. So that is always really very heartening feedback. Right. That's awesome.

Lorien McKenna: I love post by the way. 

Jac Schaeffer: Oh, great. 

Lorien McKenna: It's my favorite part of TV because you have such specific – you just have that. That's all you have, what you've shot. And so it's, you gotta make something of this. You have this very small sandbox and it's okay, it's not the blue sky beginning when you're like, “I wanna write a pilot.” 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. No, I understand that, and I think that's actually one of the reasons I like to work with IP is because there are some guardrails, and also working at Marvel, there are very specific guardrails.

And I find I often thrive in situations of limitation. And so I agree with you that in post, like once you get over the pain, like you get through the acceptance phase of the grief, then you're like, “Yeah, this is my paint box.” Like, “This is all I got, these are my tools,” and we turn it into the prettiest thing.

Lorien McKenna: Awesome. Well, I do wanna talk about “WandaVision” and “Agatha All Along,” but first I wanna mention the feature “TiMer” that you wrote and produced and directed. I loved it. I saw it a while ago. I love sci-fi romcoms. I'm obsessed with romcoms. I thought it was so fun. And the high concept, you know, you're flipping around on the channels and you see the logline. I'm like, “I'm in.” And I know it's being re-released, right?

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. It's available again for the first time since it came out, which is very exciting. 

Lorien McKenna: Yeah. That's awesome. So I must have seen it when it came out. 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah, it was, so it came out and then it was on Netflix. Before Netflix was Netflix. Like back when it was like the red envelope. 

Lorien McKenna: It was Netflix then where we got the thing in the mail and you, yeah. 

Jac Schaeffer: I know I'm dating myself, but yeah, that was thrilling for me at the time – that like, there were physical DVDs of my movie that were sent in the mail to humans that I didn't know. That was a big deal. That was exciting. 

Lorien McKenna: That's awesome. So how did you come up with that idea? What was the personal connection for you in that movie? 

Jac Schaeffer: Sure. I mean, I was a single person at the time. I was feeling very frustrated. My brother was getting married and I had this feeling of, you know, “I can go to this wedding and I can be a pleasant bridesmaid if I knew that my person was on the horizon.” I was, like, everything would just be better if I could just know, you know, like I could be patient if I had some kind of a guarantee, and it sort of spawned from that frustration and desire. And I was very like, you know, I wanted to make something indie, but I'm fascinated by “What if?” stories, you know, I have a hard time writing real life. I respond more and get more turned on by things that are genre, and I especially love speculative fiction.

And yeah, “What if?” stories is what I call them in my brain. And so I wanted to do something like that, but I obviously didn't have the resources for anything big. And I was really inspired by “Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind,” which is not a tiny movie, but felt so doable. It's obviously so practical, and there's such an ease about that movie.

You're like, “Well, of course.” But it's wildly inventive. But it's all from the initial kernel, like it all sort of spirals out as opposed to, you know, massive CG and set pieces and whatever. It just, oh God, it's just gorgeous in all the ways. And so that was really my template. I was like, I have this idea that I feel like I can take this concept and I can examine it in various different ways.

Like I can give everybody a different scenario, and so then I can examine characters through this filter from all perspectives. And then I adopted this “Eternal Sunshine” philosophy where I was like, it doesn't have to be enormous in scope. It can be quite small in scope and still feel fresh and original.

And yeah, so that's, those were my kind of guiding principles. It's so intentional. I love it. This is embarrassing at this age, but you know, I was aware of the fact that Steven Spielberg had directed his first movie by the time he was 29, and I was like, “Well I will, too!” 

Lorien McKenna: Well, I mean, that's pretty amazing if you did that. 

Jac Schaeffer: I mean, I had wonderful people supporting me and facilitating me and people who believed in it. And so yeah I was lucky. But yeah, I became a writer because I wanted to direct. That's my honest journey.

But I always wanted to direct and directing is a job that you can't just do, you know, and writing is, that's what's gorgeous about writing is like you can write any old time, any second of the day, all on your lonesome. And it is lonesome. That's the part that is hard for me is the lonesome. But directing, not only can you not just do it, you know, you need all kinds of things in order to do the job, but you aren't, it's just not realistic for you to do it particularly young.

And so there's a lot of biding your time and in doing that, in waiting and trying to hone your voice and trying to figure out who you are and what you wanna say, I was like, “Can I actually do this? Like this thing that I want so badly, is it for me? Is it in the cards?”

And so that was another sort of engine to making that movie was, “I gotta know if this is for me.”

Lorien McKenna: So it wasn't, “Should I?” or “Who will let me?” or “How do I. Am I gonna be successful at it when I do it?” 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. I remember it being so uncomfortable that the thing that I wanted to do and be, I wasn't actually doing and couldn't actually do.

And I didn't know what to say to people because it was like, it just felt so late in my life at 28, you know, 27, 28, to be like, well, I want to be a director. What does that mean? I feel that sort of empathy with all people who want that same thing. It's just, it's uncomfortable for a really long time.

Especially if it’s a match for you and you are someone who thrives when you are the keeper of the vision. Life is just uncomfortable until you can actually execute on that potential. 

Lorien McKenna: That is such a delightful way to describe. What I'm actively going through right now. I have a show I have been obsessed with. Like I'm developing a show and I wanna pitch it and I'm going to pitch it. How about this? I am pitching it. I just set the meetings up, but it's so uncomfortable wanting to watch the show, but it doesn't exist yet. 

Jac Schaeffer: That's such fuel though. When people ask me about writer's block, often my response is just think about the thrill of showing it to the people that you love and the people that you want to make, laugh, cry, whatever. Think of that sensation of them reading it, watching it, whatever it is. And that often pulls me through any sort of blockage. 

Lorien McKenna: That's great because I feel like I missed the show. You know what I mean? 

Jac Schaeffer: That's lovely. 

Lorien McKenna: I have this yearning to be like, “I wanna watch that episode again.” And then I'm like, “Wait, it doesn't exist yet.” 

Jac Schaeffer: That's really beautiful. Stay on that wavelength. 

Lorien McKenna: This is why my no chips, no sugar, is gonna school me getting this out. It is getting to share it with everybody. Yeah. Terrifying, right? 

Jac Schaeffer: Oh yeah. A hundred percent. Oh my God.

Lorien McKenna: It's like that you were saying, share it with everybody and you know, and I'm like, “Wait, what? No.”

Jac Schaeffer: The sharing with the larger world is for me, is the scarier – like right before “WandaVision” came out, the writers and I were all like, “Ooh. What's gonna happen?” Everybody clenched. It was such a swing, and we weren't supposed to be first for Marvel in the TV space. “Agatha” was different, but it was a similar – like right before it dropped, that like, suddenly your heart stops. But then there's no turning back because I don't control the platform. So it will air.

Lorien McKenna: Well, let's talk about “Wanda.” So can you talk about how it came about? Were you offered or given or had the opportunity to create a take on that project? 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. Well I, so I had, I came into Marvel on “Black Widow” and that was – I mean to sort of back up farther than you're asking, “Black Widow” was the project on which I really feel like I learned what pitching was.

Marvel has a very extensive pitch process for creatives. And it was harrowing for me at times and for all creatives that walk that path. But it was such an education and such an opportunity to figure out that skill because, I mean, as you know, there are so many skill sets to writing and there are so many types of writers, and I think there are a lot of writers who are incredible on the page, but haven’t unlocked pitching.

And then there are writers that are excellent pitcher, but like on the page maybe aren't as good as they are in the room. 

Lorien McKenna: And then there's writers like us who are both great and everything. 

Jac Schaeffer: Right! Amazing at all of it. Yeah. So I pitched on “Black Widow.” It remains to this day my favorite pitch I've ever done. And it was wonderful. And I won the job, and I pitched and pitched and pitched and pitched and finally pitched for the Big Man, for Kevin, and got it, which was amazing. 

So I was writing on “Widow” and then they pulled me over to “Captain Marvel,” and then put me back on “Widow,” and so I was doing that for almost a year, and I had heard that they were developing this “WandaVision” thing. I don't even remember if they were calling it “WandaVision” at the time, but it was like Wanda and Vision and sitcoms, and I'm like a “Twilight Zone” person. And there was something very weird about it that I immediately, I was like, you know, the executive who mentioned it to me, I was like, how does a lady get in line for that kind of a thing?

But I was still very busy on “Black Widow.” And then they invited me to pitch. And I remember like when I was prepping it, like taking all the lessons I had learned from the “Widow” pitch and sort of expanding upon them because by that point I knew what it was like to work in the halls of Marvel.

And I even knew the rooms and stuff, so like I knew where I was pitching, and so I brought in art. They have these walls that have kind of panels. And so I had these huge sitcom posters for each panel, for each episode. And I had episode titles and they weren't the final episode titles. I think for my pitch, I did a play on “Friends” where it was like, you know, “The One With the Villain Who's an AI,” and “The One Who…” They were all cute plays on “The One Where Something Explodes.” Like it was all plays on Marvel tropes. 

But it was the idea of going through the eras of the sitcoms, but it was tied to grief. And it was, you know, because they had the idea of Wanda and Vision in sitcoms. They wanted to be like, she somehow was using her powers to make this happen and that it was a response to the sort of sum total of terrible things that had happened to her.

And all that made sense. But the sort of structure of it was the thing that they didn't have. And I wanted desperately to start in it. I was like this, the key to this whole deal is you cannot tell it linearly. Because like then who cares? I was like, we gotta start drop in black and white and feel like we're in a “Twilight Zone” episode.

And also take the sitcom seriously. That was the other thing. I was like, they gotta be funny. It's gotta be real sitcom. So anyway, so I pitched in a very audio visual way. I mean, there was no audio. It was really visual, like the room, I papered the room and and my pitch was like an hour, I think, because I was so excited and had so many ideas. And then I won that job and then suddenly they were like, “How do you wanna do this?” And I was like, I've never stopped. 

Lorien McKenna: My first TV show that I got that I showran, I’d never staffed either. 

Jac Schaeffer: You're the only other one! You're the other. I've never met anyone who had that same experience. Holy cow. Yeah.  

Lorien McKenna: I was like, pitched on the theme. Like I knew what it was. I mean, I've been in Pixar rooms. 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. Lots of rooms, which is great. So I did Disney animation. And there's amazing training there in that world, which I took a lot from. Like I went from Disney Animation to Marvel and there was a lot of symmetry because Marvel has Parliament and Pixar has Story Trust. 

Lorien McKenna: It was the Brain Trust when I was there.

Jac Schaeffer: Brain trust. And then I think they called it Story Trust at Disney Animation. Anyway, sorry. Back to you. And the fact that you had that experience, it's like the only way to fly, right. To be like, “And I come in as showrunner!”

Lorien McKenna: I know, but I think that you're right about the training that is so transferable from Disney and Pixar, any sort of collaborative, collective environment like that. Yeah. And you know, I worked on features, but it's really about, it's the management skills that came in that were so critical and knowing how to work with other creative people and running the room, and how to read the room. 

Jac Schaeffer: Absolutely. Yeah. And the story artists are just astoundingly talented. And like seeing them, like my favorite thing when during my time at Disney Animation was like someone would hatch an idea and I would be like, “Well, how does that?” and then they would just draw it. Right there. They just drew it. What witchcraft is this? They'd be pitching it as they're drawing it. And they're like holding it. He runs over here and then she's, and then they hold, and I'm just like, “I'm just gonna go to sleep. Because your talent is so big.” 

Lorien McKenna: But it's that writer's room vibe of, they jump off one another, so I felt prepared in a really good way. But you know, it was still really hard. Still very hard. Still very hard.

Jac Schaeffer: Very hard. Yeah. 

Lorien McKenna: Still, “WandaVision” was your first time running a show. 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. Uhhuh. 

Lorien McKenna: That's fab. I love that so much. Because it's like you, you only can fail, right?  

Jac Schaeffer: Well, and I pressure, you know, I had very early in my career, I had some exposure to some rooms. By the time I got the “WandaVision” job, I had very young children and I was so terrified. I just didn't really believe that I'd be able to do both. And it was like, I wanna be transparent for all the working parents out there. It is not easy. But I was like, how do I balance it all?

And I was told by some wonderful people – so the first thing I did was call all the people I know who are showrunners or who have been in rooms, people I admire and respect, and ask for their advice. And I was told like, it's possible to have short hours in the room and still get your work done.

And so that was sort of my first thing – I was like, okay, I have to believe that I'm gonna run a room that is efficient and healthy and respectful and allows me to have my life and allows everybody in the room to have their lives. And we also get to, we will get the work done and also have fun, like the sort of faith in that, and then hiring the right people to make that happen. Those were the first steps that I think I did really well. 

Lorien McKenna: It sounds like it! 

Jac Schaeffer: I mean, like gathering the people, not like I was amazing. Just like bringing the right personalities. 

Lorien McKenna: Well, I mean, that’s the real job of a leader, right? It's, you hire people who are smarter than you to do all the jobs in which they excel and then give them credit and there you go. 

Jac Schaeffer: Absolutely. The longer I'm in this business and in this position, the more I realize that real healthy, effective authority and power, what that looks like is listening to the people that you've assembled and trusting them and also knowing that ultimately, if you're the keeper of the vision, that's your job that you get the ultimate yes and no. So relax – like unclench and look around at the artists that you've gathered. 

And I don't know, it just, I find increasingly less friction because I'm not holding so tightly to everything. I'm doing much more listening. 

Lorien McKenna: I love that – it's letting go of the panic.

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. Right. 

Lorien McKenna: We have to get this done. 

Jac Schaeffer: Or there's only one way to do it. That's not true. I mean, the thing that I just directed, I didn't write and I embraced that opportunity for a lot of reasons. I was very excited about it. But one of the sort of like discoveries was it left me – because it didn't come from my brain. 

When it comes from your brain, you're like, “The actor has to say it this way. This is how it has to look.” Like there's only one path. And having it not come from my brain, I was like, “It could be this, it could be that. Like what's your idea? Let's get into it.”

And that was really exciting, and I hope I can take that sensation, that approach with me for whatever I do next that I did actually write. 

Jeff Graham: I love the spirit of collaboration. Jac. It reminds me of kind of the idea of a writer's room in general. The idea of making TV and you've told a really cool story. There's a famous quote from “WandaVision,” I wanna get it right. I think it's, “What is grief if not love persevering?” 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. 

Jeff Graham: And you've been very candid about the fact that creating that moment on the show was collaborative. 

Jac Schaeffer: It was a combo platter of a lot of different things. So when the line sort of popped the way that it did in a totally unexpected way, everybody kind of panicked because it was a far more complicated story to explain who had written it. So Laura Donney, who wrote the episode, didn't actually write that line because it was a request by Paul.

Paul came to me and was like, “Vision should say something to Wanda that illuminates grief for her.” And I was like, “Got it Paul, I'll be right back.” And I wanted it to be something along the lines of, the concept was like, grief is the love that survives, essentially, but the word “survive” had sort of a harshness to it and a desperation to it.

And I was like, noodling and noodling. And (Laura) Monti was the one who came up with “persevere,” and it did feel like, you know, a lightning bolt came down and we were like, “It's beautiful.” And Paul thought it was beautiful. And then we did it. And then the show aired and it went viral.

And then people were calling Laura Donney to comment and she was like, “Ah.” So my publicist, who is also a brilliant, wonderful, talented person, Rebecca Taylor, she sort of created an opportunity for me to tell the fullness of the story in a press situation. So then that made everybody feel good, including Paul. Because Paul's request was the impetus. So we sort of see it as, it was the four of us that kind of made it happen altogether. But it wouldn't be what it was without Laura Monti's contribution for sure. 

Lorien McKenna: I love that story. That's what a TV writing room is. I mean, if you ever wanted an example of what that's really like.

Jac Schaeffer: Yes, yes.

Lorien McKenna: So talking about “WandaVision” and that you wanted it to be about grief, that was your take – your big picture. 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. Let's talk about that. I love unpacking all of this. So they knew “WandaVision” and they were interested in the eras of sitcoms. And they knew they wanted it to be about her devastation at the loss in her life. I'm sure it said grief somewhere, but lthat was when I internalized their development. That's what I remember is they were like, “All this has happened to her. She lost her parents, she lost her brother, she lost her partner.” Just hit after hit. And this is a super powerful being. And so what does this do to her? And so as I said earlier, my take was to start in the middle of it and then create a structure that was like, I don't know, sort of like a gift being unwrapped like that. It was just peeling back the layers.

And I was very enamored of the idea of the – I watched sitcoms as a kid and I remember the episodes that deviated from the norm. You know, when Carol Seaver’s boyfriend died after a drunk driving thing. And there's that, this is a deep cut, but that show, “My Dad is an Alien.” Is that what it was called? About the girl who could stop time when she pressed her fingers together? Do you remember that one? 

Lorien McKenna: Oh, right. Yeah. I loved that one. 

Jac Schaeffer: And in that pilot episode, which it's like a very sort of standard, cheesy sitcom, but the moment when she gets her powers is really creepy. Like everything stops and everybody freezes, and the canned laughter stops, and then her powers come. And also in that show, it was aligned with puberty for her. And so there was something sort of like that, that scratched at my subconscious. And so when I was, when I pitched on “WandaVision,” part of my pitch was about using the familiarity and the comfort of the sitcom format to sort of lull the audience into complacency, and then poke.

It would be thrilling for an audience that we would be able to do things like, you know, break the aspect ratio and have jump cuts, and that we would be using the form to destabilize the audience and thrill the audience and unpack the mystery.

So that was my take – all of those pieces. My actual episode break didn't really end up being exactly like that, but I did align them, I'm pretty sure in my pitch, I aligned them to grief. 

So to talk about the brass tax of a take – so they said grief, and I was like, every episode is attached to a different phase of grief. Like that to me is what a take is. You are receiving the development and you are shaping it to something that makes sense to you and feels original and feels fresh. And it's so fun. It's just really exciting. And I, to me, the secret is, at its most essential, what is the story?

And so for, you know, “WandaVision,” it's a grieving woman who has superpowers and she does this thing that is tied. And that was the other thing is my pitch was, had to do with her dad was a bootlegger of sitcom DVDs. And so they would watch them together. So like in that instance it was about like, what is the source trauma, source pain, you know, what is the root?

And so the show is excavating to that, which then I essentially did the same thing on “Agatha All Along.” But in that one, the sort of, the root is, was this woman, like I define this woman as a liar, so what is her truth? And that was like the most fundamental way to look at that show is the point A to point B.

It's not a redemption story, you know, it's not that. It is, she is a liar. We are gonna get to some form of truth for a woman who will never let you see that. 

Lorien McKenna: Do you feel like Wanda and Agatha are anti-heroes? 

Jac Schaeffer: That’s an interesting question. I think that Agatha is categorized as a villain, which I think is fine. I think that she likes that. I think it's accurate to a degree. I think she's happy to hide behind that. 

Lorien McKenna: I think she'd own it. But I'm wondering as you –  

Jac Schaeffer: I actually think, I mean, truthfully, I think that she's classified as a villain. Wanda's classified as a hero. I actually think, truthfully, deep down, I think Agatha has more natural, benevolent tendencies, and I think Wanda has more sort of reflexive dark tendencies. 

Lorien McKenna: Interesting. 

Jac Schaeffer: Don't tell the internet I said that. I won't

Lorien McKenna: This isn't going  into the world or anything.  

Jac Schaeffer: But iwhat makes them fascinating to me is yes, I love that the world wants to put these labels on them and that they are constantly dodging them, even though Wanda, I think, thinks she wants to be one thing. She can't. She cannot. And I think Agatha wants to be all the things and doesn't care what labels are put on her. 

Lorien McKenna: I love the characters. The actresses, of course, are – 

Jac Schaeffer: Stunning, right? 

Lorien McKenna: I mean, yeah. I have such a clear idea of what both those women think about themselves. 

Jac Schaeffer: I think they're complex and that is all that I care about, and all I'm interested in doing. 

Lorien McKenna: You're like, “I don't care about the labels. Why are you asking me that?” 

Jac Schaeffer: Well, I just, all I really wanna do is write complicated women. And that's what like, you know, writing the ensemble of “Agatha All Along,” you know, I wish we had – you know, we only had so much real estate and we tried and fought and worked so hard to use all that real estate to create nuanced characters.

But I mean, I could have done that forever. I could have written and played with them forever because I'm fascinated by the contradictions. 

It's interesting that you say that you think, you know what they think about themselves and that they don't care what people think. I think that's true for Agatha. I think Wanda does care. 

Lorien McKenna: I think Wanda is far more complicated. There's more layers to her in terms of how she sees herself in the world and her belief system. 

Jac Schaeffer: I do think when she's in her power – sorry, is this interesting? We could talk about them forever!

Lorien McKenna: I think it's amazing.

Jac Schaeffer: I think when Wanda is fully in her power, she doesn't care. But I think she spends a lot of time ducking in and out of it. And I think Agatha always wants to be in her power and is thwarted a lot of the time. 

When I started at Marvel, I didn't know that's what I'd be doing, and that's what I ended up, you know, I got, it was Natasha and it was Carol and it was Yelena and Wanda and Agatha, and then all the witches and the conversation that I was having with myself about women in power and also my own power and my own authority. Like it was pretty bananas to be doing “WandaVision” and we kept referring to her as the showrunner of her show.

I have two children. She had two children. I was like, “Don't read into it Schaffer,” but it there was, you know, I don't see myself as Wanda at all, but I am fascinated by the conversation of women in power because I am in situations where I'm the one in charge. And it is thrilling and exciting and complicated and a lot of responsibility, and I have made many missteps.So yeah, it's just, it's a real thematic preoccupation of mine. 

Lorien McKenna: Well, I mean, that's so much what we talk about on the show too, which is lava, right. Which is that internal theme that we're dealing with, and then we figure out ways to put it in our work. That is how we can connect to it and tell the truth.

Jac Schaeffer: And I also think there's so much where you don't actually know that you're processing your own stuff and then you're in it and you're like, “Ah, I bet a therapist would've told me.”

Lorien McKenna: And that's why we write, right?

So when you first started talking about a take, you were talking about you know, Wanda and Vision and sitcoms and all these terrible things that have happened in her life, all these losses and what this would do to her. And your response was, “What does she do with this?” 

Which is I think for so many emerging writers, but also for all of us to remember that to keep active main character. It's not what happened to her or what does this do to her, it's what does she do with it. And both Agatha and Wanda are on that path.

Like we meet them in the middle. They are doing it. People talk about core wound and trauma and all that stuff. It's nope – let's see where they are right now in action. What's happening? And that seems like a very intentional choice you made.

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah, I think so. I mean, my colleague Mary Livanos, who's the executive producer on “Agatha” and was on “WandaVision” as well, she said to me early, you know, that prequels sort of neuter a heroine story. I mean, I hesitate to even use heroine, it's a little lazy. Like prequels can be great, but if you decide to go the prequel route for a female character, like out of the gate, you're kind of being like, “Well, this story is off the timeline and potentially inconsequential.” Not always, but that has always stuck with me as an excellent point.

And yeah, I'm always striving to have all my characters be active. When I was younger, like very early in my writing, that was such a struggle. I think because when you're young, it feels like things are happening to you. And I remember wanting to be like, “Ah, I should just write like a sports movie, because then it's here is an external goal that a character is running at literally.”

And that's just not how I write, to that type of genre. But I'm always jealous of it because in my mind, it's like sort of the most external and clear goal that you can have for a protagonist or an ensemble. But yeah, at this point it's easier for me, and it's much more of a reflex, I think. I don't think I have to think about it as much. I think it's just like naturally, I'm like, “Well, what does she do? What's she doing? What does she do next?” 

Lorien McKenna: Yeah. No, I mean, it's just important to say that it was such a clear, “What does this do to her? What does she do?”

Jac Schaeffer: Mary and I held hands and said that we weren't gonna do the sort of Jean Gray thing where like her emotions are directly tied to her powers and she basically like implodes you know, it's tiresome and misogynist. And so it was always much more about, what is she doing as opposed to like her powers. They are her, they're not happening to her. 

Lorien McKenna: I love that. And we have to remember that as women, right? I mean, I think why I loved watching the show with my husband so much was because of that. Because I was calling out things to him like, “This is different. See how this is different? This is different.”

He's lovely. He's the best husband. We're all the good ones. We love him. But I could point to the TV screen without having to get into a whole conversation about, “Here's why.” It's – that's how I feel, and that's what she's doing. It's the episode where, I think it was in the eighties episode where she's talking to the camera. 

Jac Schaeffer: Oh, the “Modern Family.” 

Lorien McKenna: Yeah, and I was like, that. That's the vibe right there. Yeah, that's reality.

Jac Schaeffer: I have to credit the room because we, you know, all the decisions we made, we would stop and say, “What are we saying here? What are we saying about women? What are we saying about everybody?” It was a room with a conscience. It was a room where we were all very focused on representation and messaging and just being really careful. And that episode, all of her talking to the camera was written by Cameron Squires, who is a fantastic writer who also happens to be a man. And he really got in there. He also wrote episode three of “Agatha All Along,” which is the “Big Little Lies”/Nancy Meyers episode. 

And he also co-wrote seven, which is the Lilia episode. And so, I like the group think and what I attribute to like, why it is elevated. You know? It wasn't me. It was this group of like-minded people. 

Lorien McKenna: Totally. I love that. So when you're staffing a room, what are you looking for? 

Jac Schaeffer: Oh, what am I looking for? I love this question. 

Lorien McKenna: And how do you find it? 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. Well, I mean, now I have like people that I love to work with over and over again, but I always want someone new or multiple new people because I just love early writers – like new writers, not young writers, new writers. I think that's really important. 

Lorien McKenna: We say “emerging writers.” 

Jac Schaeffer: Emerging writers, yes. Well, and just because I think also my, one of the lessons I learned from “WandaVision” was I had no idea what I was doing. And so I could have whatever intentions I wanted and I could have whatever expectations I wanted.

And so, emerging writers come in with like full hearts, you know? And that's beautiful and uplifting. So what I look for in terms of talent, I'm looking for daring. I read specs and I do not care if you stick the landing. I love it if you stick the landing, but I wanna see somebody taking a risk on the page.

I mean, the spec needs to be cohesive and no typos and like the basics, right? Someone needs to know how to write. But it's much more interesting to me if there's something electric, whether it's a character or a POV. I hired someone – it was Giovanna Sarquis on “Agatha All Along.” I hired her because the sensation of motherhood was so strong in her spec. And I couldn't really articulate why. It wasn't dialogue or descriptions. I just was, like, this essence is what it feels like when you're a mom. And she isn't a mom. And I was like, done. Get in the room.

Lorien McKenna: Wow. Okay. 

Jac Schaeffer: And I didn't need to know that beforehand. I just, there was something very yeah, a sort of elemental that I loved about it. So anyway, so, and then Cam, because I was just talking about him. Cam had this really daring spec that was just like, a very big idea that was really complicated. I had to sit up, like I had to lean forward and I loved that. And same with Megan McDonnell. Her spec was so good and so methodically constructed. Like it was a tough idea that she had taken the time to really – I read it and was like, if I have a question, if I have a logic question, she's gonna be able to answer it.

And that was exciting. So that's what I look for on the page. And then there's also then sort of, so second to that is what is my show and what are, what's the toolbox that I need? So on “Wanda” I needed sitcom writers. I needed genre writers, I needed mythology people.

Megan McDonnell wrote her thesis on “The Twilight Zone.” I needed her in the room. Bobak Esfarjani is just like the guy when it comes to structure of genre pieces. And he had experience and gravitas in that way. And I'm like, I need that sort of firm hand.

And then on “Agatha,” there are POVs that I needed. We had a gay Jewish character. I needed gay Jewish writers like that. That's just the way to do it. And then it's about the person. I have really high expectations in my rooms for kindness and respect, humor, fun. So it's really, it's dating – like I have to meet with people and have a level of certainty that they're gonna be lovely people and a good hang. So yeah, that's how I do it. 

Lorien McKenna: That's awesome. What is a red flag for you when you're reading a script? Other than typos or? 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah, if it's just derivative, you know, if it's a script that does everything right, but I don't feel anything new about it or there's no POV to it.

If it's sort of by-the-numbers or if I don't wanna keep reading, which is usually those are one and the same just for my taste. A red flag for me is a negative attitude. So one of the pieces of advice that I got when I was approaching “WandaVision” from another showrunner is everybody does this job differently, so you need to figure out what you need to do the job well.

And one of the things that I need is, it's not yes people, it's optimistic people and excited people. And so I tend to tuck those people next to me because it's a hard job. And so, you know, Megan McDonnell is one of those. Anytime I'm working with Megan McDonnell I look at her and I'm like, “Is this gonna be okay?”

She's like, “Yeah, it's gonna be great.” And it's just delightful. And she's full of ideas. Mackenzie Dohr is another one. Mackenzie is just chalk full of ideas. So if something doesn't work, we go down a path and it like all unravels, she's like, “Well, here's another idea, it's fine. Here's another, here's one more, and here's third and a fourth and a fifth.” So it's that sort of positivity and that glint in someone's eye. And I try to have so much gratitude all the time because everybody wants to do this job. Like everybody wants to like play pretend in their lives.

And I get to do it. And so to be with other people who feel the same way, who feel like we're the luckiest kiddos is what I look for. 

Lorien McKenna: So your room sounds amazing. 

Jac Schaeffer: They are. I work with great people.

Lorien McKenna: You've never been, you know, you weren't in a room before, so you weren't well, “I don't want it to be this,” or “I don't want it to be this.” You were very like, “This is what I want it to be.” So you didn't bring any sort of baggage in terms of reacting to what you didn't want in a room? Do you think that? 

Jac Schaeffer: Well, I was in, not writers' rooms, but I was in spaces. 

Lorien McKenna: Oh, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Sorry. 

Jac Schaeffer: I thought, I don't want it to be like this.Like environments where I was like, there's of course you've been in Hollywood. There are places where you don't feel safe and you feel scared all the time. You know that. 

This pilot that I just shot, like my, I worked with a very young cast. They were all so lovely and so talented and, you know, they get nervous about their marks and like blocking light and that kind of thing. And I was like, “We are good at our jobs. We can move a light. You can miss your mark and this extremely talented camera op named Bayla, who I adore, he's gonna follow you. So let's not be scared. Let's just not be scared.”

So yeah. I think that was my thing – is like being in places where I felt scared or others felt scared, I felt very anti that vibe. 

Lorien McKenna: I am also anti that vibe. So the next time I get scared, I'm gonna call you and ask you to say to me, “Don't be scared. 

Jac Schaeffer: Don't be scared. Don't be scared. You're so lucky to be doing what you're doing. Don't be scared.

Lorien McKenna: Yeah, exactly. I love that. So, what advice do you have for someone who's recently been given the opportunity to pitch their take on some IP? 

Jac Schaeffer: So advice for someone who's about to pitch?

Lorien McKenna: Yeah, they’re like, here's this book we love. Here are some of our rough ideas. 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing is like, what about the text or IP or whatever it is, what's the deep down for you? What do you feel? What is the sort of foundational piece that touches you emotionally?

And it can be anything. It can be a character, it can be a scene, it can be a twist. What is the thing that you respond to? And then how are you seeing that? What is the framing sort of metaphorically? What's your filter that you're putting on it? Like, why does it move you so much? What is it that's like lighting you up? 

And then just extrapolate more and more build around that. And I think with IP there's a lot of anxiety about being faithful to it, especially if it has a fan base. Like I can't change it. People are gonna be upset and I think development, writing, production, like all of that is a very long road. So I don't think you need to be precious at the beginning. I think there is room to explore at the beginning and not get sort of lost in the weeds. 

So this is, I feel like I'm speaking a little too conceptually, but I think for a take you want it to be, you wanna be able to, out of the gate, have it be simple and elegant. You know, this show is about grief. This show is about, you know, whatever it is. Like you start with the basic piece and why it moves you. Does that answer the question? 

Lorien McKenna: It totally does. The show I mentioned earlier that I'm working on is, it's not IP, but it is something that exists in the world that I have no experience in. I'm not the expert in this. But I am connected to it emotionally in a really profound way in terms of the theme. That is why I'm the right person. Because I found a connection between my life and this thing. That would not make sense to very many people.

But so it is, even though I'm developing my own show, it is very much the same thing. Coming at it with that theme and why I love it and why I'm the only one that can tell it. You know, well, this version sure. But I think it's so similar. 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. And I would also say, because I think that is the sort of what you hold onto and then to talk about what you should let go.

I think that especially for newer writers, you feel this obligation to pitch and be like, “A leads to B, B leads to C, C leads to D,” and that you're covering all the bases and you're demonstrating that you can string a story together. And I think that's where a lot of pitches go wrong, because there's only so much someone can hear and digest.

So stuff you don't know and you haven't figured out, skip over it. Just skip over it. Just hit the salient points, hit the things that are working, and, oh, this is my advice to everybody about how to pitch well – you should pitch like you're at a bar and you're telling your friend a story that you can't wait to tell them and they're eating up.

That's the energy. You don't tell them every single detail of the story. You're telling them the highlights and they're hanging on your every word. That's what it should feel like in a good pitch. And I think there's always this sort of like post discussion of a pitch and they might ask questions and you might not have the answers and that's okay.

What I want young writers to know is in a pitch or a take, you do not have to have all the answers. They have not paid you yet. That is what the fee is for. That is what the room is for. You are there to dazzle them with your initial ideas and the vision that you have and the vision isn't answering all the questions. The vision is the big picture. 

Lorien McKenna: That's great advice. It's always great to keep that in mind. I think when I work on a take or a pitch I often love character and getting bogged down and all the, “Yeah, this could happen.” So for me, it's about pulling way out. And what can somebody reasonably absorb in 12 to 16 minutes?

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. That's real. You don't wanna lose your audience. 

Lorien McKenna: When you're writing, or directing or doing any of the work, what do you do when you get stuck? 

Jac Schaeffer: I go for a walk usually. I go for a walk or I talk to somebody that I know will be receptive and supportive and helpful. Yes. Those are my two go-tos. 

Lorien McKenna: Choose who you get notes from depending on what stage you're at, right? 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. Well, and that's why you know, producers, you wanna work with producers who are cheerleaders. I mean, I do anyway. Like I work so much better when I'm working with people who are psyched and believe in me and believe in the project. And so you, they want, you want them to be your call, you know, when you're having trouble. So that's where a really good producer comes in. Right. 

Lorien McKenna: Okay. So this has been amazing. I wanna talk to you forever and ever, but I realize we both have work to do according to my whiteboard.

So we ask every guest the same three questions, and the first one is, “What brings you the most joy when it comes to writing or directing or creating?”

Jac Schaeffer: Oh man, that's so hard. And I feel like the answer is, it's different depending on what phase I'm in. So I just directed, so I'm gonna have to, can I give a directing answer that's not a writing answer? 

Lorien McKenna: Yes, of course. 

Jac Schaeffer: Okay. Because I think with writing it's when you write something that gives you the chills, I think that's the moment for me.

But what just happened that I think if I could choose like anything of all the hats that I wear, it's when I get like on a wavelength with an actor and I see them like, get there and they know it and I know it and we're synced and it's, I don't know, it's really transcendent. And I just, that just happened to me a bunch on the show, which was wonderful.

Lorien McKenna: A bunch. Huh? A bunch of that. I love that you're looking for the thrill, the twist, the pull the rug out from under me. And I'm happy with the thump when I fall on my ass. Like the poke with a knife when I didn't know someone had a knife behind me. Like these, little shocks. I love it.

Jac Schaeffer: Love those moments. Those are the ones that gimme the chills on the page. That's really exciting. Like when, you know, writing in “WandaVision” when Mr. Hart chokes in the pilot. Writing that was ecstatic.  

Lorien McKenna: Okay, here's the next question. What pisses you off when it comes to writing or directing?

Jac Schaeffer: I mean, I think with writing, I try very hard. Notes always make me better because I think it's about hearing the note and interpreting the note and then executing the note up to your own standards. That's the trick. And it can be really hard and really painful. But it makes me better.

Everything's better if I listen and interpret. But I think when notes are like bad direction, when notes are asking for exposition in a clumsy way or if they're not respectful I think that is hard because I think everybody, everyone in the arts, I mean everyone everywhere has some specialized skills and if you yourself don't do them, then when you communicate with that person, you should behave with that humility. So I think when someone gives me notes and it's clear they're not respecting my craft or my ability or that of my colleagues, it actually makes me angrier. If it's with some of my colleagues, that makes me mad. And I think this kind of the same thing in directing, if there's disrespect or anger, bad vibes, and it's, and if it's like in a direction with someone who's more vulnerable no, thank you. Not happening. Okay. 

Lorien McKenna: I dunno what you're talking about. I can't relate to either of those at all. Nothing. No. 

Jac Schaeffer: Yeah. 

Lorien McKenna: Okay. Here's the third question. You can have coffee with your younger self. What advice would you give her? 

Jac Schaeffer: Oh my gosh. Is this the part of the program where I cry? 

Lorien McKenna: Yeah. Oh, yes, please. 

Jac Schaeffer: Let's see, what would I tell her? I mean, I think that my colleague Daniel Selon, who did costumes on “Agatha” and was on the show that I was just on. He and I have been doing a thing where we say #NoSuffering. And I think that's what I would say to my younger self is no suffering.

It doesn't actually need to be agony. Yes, you need to work hard. Yes, you need to hold yourself to account and challenge yourself. And things are hard and things happen, but making yourself suffer does not yield good art. It can, but it's not a necessary step.

So I think that's what I would say is just don't be so mean to yourself. That's what I would say.

Lorien McKenna: I think that's universally good advice. How many of us take that? I don't know. 

Jac Schaeffer: I know. And when you're younger it's really hard. 

Lorien McKenna: Yes. Well, thank you so much. This has been amazing. I am thrilled that we got to have you on the show and hear all the wonderful things you have to say. So thank you.

Jac Schaeffer: This was a delight. Thank you. Thank you all. I'm really flattered to be asked and to be able to do this. It was really great. 

Lorien McKenna: Thanks to Jac so much for coming on the show. “WandaVision” and “Agatha All Along” are both available to stream now on Disney+, and “TiMer,” which I recommend, is now available to watch on multiple streaming platforms. It's free on Tubi and Roku, and available for purchase on Peacock, Amazon, YouTube, Apple, and Fandango. 

And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.