Indie Film Craft 2 | Trey Edward Shults on Working With The Weeknd, The Role Of The Camera & Vulnerable Storytelling

Trey Edward Shults is an inspiration to directors everywhere — including Jeff. His debut feature, KRISHA, was a no-name psychological drama shot in his own home on a shoestring budget under $30K. Against all odds, it won SXSW, screened at Cannes, and eventually sold to A24. KRISHA stands as a beacon for anyone looking to make a personal, ambitious feature with limited resources.

Now Trey is collaborating with The Weeknd, and even though their new film HURRY UP TOMORROW feels bigger in scale, Trey's storytelling ethos remains unchanged: center the character, prioritize emotion, and use the camera as a tool to highlight the story — not to distract from it.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Welcome to Indie Film Craft. I'm your host, Jeffrey Crane Graham, and if you're new here, maybe finding the show through today's episode, we're a spinoff of The Screenwriting Life podcast, which I co-produce with Meg LeFauve and Lorien McKenna. I'm also a working filmmaker. I recently sold my debut feature, "Always Lola," which I wrote and directed, and which more importantly, is partially inspired by today's guest, Trey Edward Schults, a filmmaker whose work I've admired for nearly a decade.

Trey's really shaped the way I think about filmmaking. I saw his debut "Krisha" when I was just starting out, and the movie was actually a really important tool for me as I assembled my own production. I teach a class on micro budget filmmaking, and I actually assign "Krisha" to my students to model how they can create a personal story with sharp directorial intention on a budget.

So it's really meaningful for me to get to chat with Trey today. I love his work. His newest film, a collaboration with The Weeknd, is called “Hurry Up Tomorrow,” and it drops in theaters tomorrow, May 16th. How a propos. To contextualize this conversation, Lionsgate sent me a 25-minute mood reel, so I still haven't seen the full thing, but what I saw offers a compelling glimpse into what has made Trey's work so fascinating to me over the years — impressionistic and emotionally intense storytelling told through the camera.

So in this conversation, we'll talk about “Hurry Up Tomorrow,” but we'll also zoom out to explore how Trey built his films from the ground up, even when working with low five figure budgets like he did with "Krisha," which I know will be useful to listeners. 

I started by asking Trey how he actually connected with The Weeknd. And just as a note, we'll mostly refer to The Weeknd as Abel throughout this conversation. 

Trey Edward Shults: My producers from “Waves,” Kevin, who sadly passed away in post-production during this, and Harrison, were friends and working with Abel and I basically got a brief. I had knew he dug some of my stuff, like he had tweeted about "It Comes at Night.” I knew he saw “Waves" at Toronto, but I didn't know if he liked it. But I just got in, they hit me up and they were like, “Would you want to meet Abel?” And I was like, in LA working. I was shooting, I think an episode of “Winning Time” and I was like, “Why not?” Like, no, they said he had an idea for a movie.

And I will be honest with you, I went in incredibly skeptical that idea would... it turned into a movie with me. And honestly, I went in not knowing what to, like, this was before “The Idol” came out. All I really knew of him, like I had seen him in the Super Bowl, I knew his music and I had seen music videos, but I honestly didn't expect him to be cool. Like I thought he might be a jerk or something. I, you know, I didn't know many pop stars and stuff, but I don't know what I expected. I was like, why not? I'll do a meeting with The Weeknd. And then shockingly, or to my surprise, I loved him instantly. 

Like, he felt like a sweet Canadian dude. Like he was just humble and sweet and lovely. A cinephile, had great taste. We had a lot of similar taste, but then he was also throwing movies to me that I hadn't seen and just hit it off and really liked him. 

And he basically had this idea of... he, he was kind of open. He was like, it could be anything. I just wanna work together. But like this big thing had happened to him, like he was doing a concert and he lost his voice. It was the first time in his career, you know, so he was in a stadium of like 80,000 people. And early on in the concert, he can't sing. And like, I hadn't even heard this had happened, but once I looked at the footage later, his poor face is devastated.

That was interesting to me right from the get-go. So it was like, okay, so right. The thing you're interested in exploring is like arguably the most traumatic thing that's happened to you professionally, and it's like stemming from a place of vulnerability. So I was like, okay, that's interesting.

But then finding too that it was psychological. It wasn't literally like he was losing his voice because he was going through some heavy stuff in his head and he was beating up his body. And that was all just interesting to me from a filmmaking standpoint, you know what I mean?

Especially exploring, you know, I love character studies and character pieces and trying to explore someone's subconscious a bit. So all of those things kind of brewed together. And then long story short, I got more inspired than I had been since writing “Waves.” This was like, I basically like post-Waves, my last movie, I was like, tapped out. I think I was like disappointed at the reception. I put everything I had into it. I didn't have another idea. I just, I didn't even wanna watch movies and the pandemic hit, you know, it was just like a weird place in time. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Yeah. 

Trey Edward Shults: And then, yeah, long story short, I got insanely inspired.

And it was off the races. We met in October, had an outline in November, a script in December, shooting in February. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Wow. 

Trey Edward Shults: Like, it was the weirdest, quickest thing that's ever, that never happens. That was also after years of like trying to develop stuff and then not getting green lit and all these things. So, yeah.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: I mean, what's interesting about The Weeknd. It makes sense to me that you would be a little bit unsure to take a meeting because he's not like a somewhat famous actor. He's like arguably the most famous living performer, maybe besides Taylor Swift. So I'm sure that was like a factor in how you were approaching this.

Do you feel like you were kind of beholden to his schedule and that's why you're able to ramp into production so quickly, or that's just kind of how it… 

Trey Edward Shults: Because he had to go on tour again…

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Yeah. 

Trey Edward Shults: So it was like, we're gonna do something. It's gotta be quick. And I was like, all right, let's just see.

Like, I basically approached it from a space of optimism and inspiration, and then the fact that it actually all happened and clicked was a very needed thing for me. And yeah, it was a very beautiful thing. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Well, it's interesting — you mentioned that the idea if psychologically is kind of about losing his voice and sort of the subconscious experience of what that would be like.

I sort of thought of “Persona” when I was watching the movie. I don't know if… 

Trey Edward Shults: That was literally my biggest, I think, my biggest comp for this. And biggest inspiration overall. Like obviously when you see the full movie, it is not just “Persona” at all, but like I was yeah, it's one of my favorite movement movies.

Bergman's one of my favorite filmmakers and I was, yeah, extremely interested in hopefully creating like a movie that, at least my inspiration from that and what I could take for this is I wanted a movie that could work in two ways and a sense of like, one — if you just want to have an experiential kind of ride with it and not dig deeper. Hopefully you like it in that way. But if you wanna, you know, I feel like “Persona” is like one of the most academically studied films that were made, like if you, at least the ambition with this one, with “Hurry Up” was like, if you want a deeper, richer psychological metaphorical experience and have hopefully a fantastic conversation with your friend leaving the theater that, that was like insanely exciting to me.

And the, just the challenge of trying to do both of those things in one. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: I can't wait to talk about that specifically. And one of my favorite things about your work is like how impressionistic it is. The way you use the camera is such a specific and intentional way for us to experience what your characters are experiencing.

I'm only bringing that up because I'm gonna get into that a little later, but what I loved about this movie was I did feel some Bergman. It also feels like it's living in a lineage of concert movies. I thought of “Purple Rain.” I thought of “The Wall.” I'm a huge Daft Punk fan. I don't know if you've seen their animated movie, “Interstella 5555.”

Trey Edward Shults: I actually haven't, which is crazy because I love Daft Punk.  

Jeffrey Crane Graham: It's really good, but it’s informed by the music and the story in equal parts, I would say. Like are, do you think of the movie that way, or are you thinking of more of like a traditional narrative feature? 

Trey Edward Shults: It's a great question.

I kind of wrestle with it because like when I wrote this script, I actually was right. It wasn't like two that he like gave me an album and he was like, make a movie out of it. We just, we, there was no album. There was just like a bunch of demos and songs and sounds and he was like, anything that inspires you, whatever.

And when I was writing the script, I did. Like for “Waves," I wrote the songs into there and for this one I wrote like, track one is here, track two is here, track three is here. So more as like placeholders where song could potentially interconnect with narrative in a exciting way. But honestly, man, in the back of my mind, my big thing with this is I didn't want it to be a gimmick.

Like, I didn't want anything to feel like a gimmick musically. And like with attached to an album in a gimmicky way. I like, I really just wanted it to work as a movie regardless of the music, shockingly. And the way I saw a traditional narrative in here because I do think when you did a movie, it, it may be traditional narrative won't be as like, immediately glaring, but in my head, the structure was very important.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: No, that makes sense. Like it is a visual medium at the end of the day, so like, yeah, you can't rely on music to tell the story if you want to tell a story. And I feel like sound is such an important part of what you do, but equally important is what you're shooting. 

Trey Edward Shults: Totally. And end of the day, man, I mean, I'm also, I'm just in love with the fusion of all of them, right?

Like I love that you said I make impressionistic stuff because that, I mean, that is the goal. The goal, like, I always see it, like, I try to make subjective films for like every choice from the visual film grammar to the sound design, to the music choices are all meant to echo that character's headspace.

What what they're at any given scene and kind of where their journey is along this way. And hopefully it's very experiential and puts you, you know, in their shoes a bit. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Totally.

You know, you talked about writing and as we're talking about pre-production, this movie in particular, but a lot of your work, I would say, tends towards unconventionality maybe compared to like a quote studio movie. I'm curious about your writing process particularly because you share writing credit with The Weeknd and I want to credit your third co-writer on this too — Reza Fahim and you and The Weeknd co-wrote on this and I guess I'm always curious, like from a physical, logistical perspective, are you typing pages and emailing them back and forth? Are you like hopping on Google Docs and writing at the same time? Like… 

Trey Edward Shults: Yeah, well I had some, even though my my three prior films I wrote solo, I was like trying to get some stuff made in the interim between “Waves” and this, one of them being like a HBO miniseries that I was doing with my buddy that originated with him. It was like his baby as a feature script, but we had this ambition of what it could be in like a four or five episode miniseries, like a mini epic movie. So I had to like meet him there and you know, make it be my baby, too.

So I had some practice with it. And so far for, and the new thing I'm writing, I'm co-writing too. It's always the bounce back and forth. Like, they'll do a pass, then I'll do a pass on top of them or vice versa. And then also times of like long conversations and long phone calls and notes and that, but have never done an actual, I mean — I guess I've done a few write, we didn't do this on hurry up, but in the past I've done like a writing trip where we're both kind of riding next to each other. So, it can be free flow and stuff, but never any Zoom simultaneous things. More just for “Hurry Up,” it was more like, I get crazy inspired, start doing an outline, send it out, get input and some stuff back. Usually, very rarely did we like disagree on stuff pretty much. I loved all the ideas and it was flowing really naturally. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Cool. Again, we talked about it, but your work is so visual. It's very intentionally blocked and choreographed and impressionistic, and I'm always curious like, what does that look like on the page?

How specific are you with your blocking? Especially because you know you'll be directing, but you are like sending this to actors. 

Trey Edward Shults: Yeah, I think it fluctuates. Like I like getting across — I like getting across the intentionality of the film grammar, like I'll mention an aspect ratio change or if it's a single take, you know, if it's a one or if we're on a zoom lens, I, I also don't wanna like bog down the reader to where it's like annoying, you know what I mean? Right. So I try to like mention it. So the reader has it in their head that the intentionality and where this is all going somewhere for a reason. But I also don't want to bog it down.

And I try to, with the scripts I honestly try to make them I try to make them read experiential, hopefully like the movies, like I do want it to be fun. Sometimes I'll go with like bigger font or change of color and cool. Yeah, I just want, yeah, I want them to stick out a bit and feel how the movies feel, you know?

Jeffrey Crane Graham: That's great. It's funny, we, because we're like a writing podcast, a lot of writers will spend so much time arguing about like, the rules of screenwriting and sometimes I feel like that's just an excuse that we're using to not write. So I totally agree with you that I think our job as writers is to create an experience as close to seeing the movie as you can on the page.

So I love that you're using different tools to try to communicate that to whoever's reading it. 

Trey Edward Shults: Cool. I don't know, you get sent a lot of scripts too and some, if the thing's not like immediately grabbing you and stuff, it can feel like homework and not a fun… but the ambition is always to ho hopefully like hook a person early on in the read and yeah, make it feel how the final movie's gonna feel, you know?

Jeffrey Crane Graham: That's great. That's a great note for our listeners. You know, we've been talking around your film grammar, and I, forgive me if I'm overgeneralizing, but when I think about your work, I think about like really intimate closeups. I think about pretty wide wides. Yeah. And I think about like, careful oners.

And I, I don't feel like you live in mids very much. I guess I'd love to hear you sort of talk about maybe like not only the filmmakers that helped you build that grammar, but like how you are specifically using the camera to try to tell a story. 

Trey Edward Shults: Yeah, I mean, I think you're very correct and I think, so for me, I love character studies. I love character pieces. I feel like I get, you know, more or less everything I've made has kind of been a character study. And I like the visual grammar echoing the arc of the character. So like, as an example, I'll use my first movie “Krisha” that, you know, that starts with the wide wides because I wanted it to feel like this woman is going to a place she hasn't been in a long time, and she's like, kind of intimidated, for one. It's stress-inducing and it's a whole freaking world she hasn't been a part of. 

So I wanted to feel, you know, almost like Kubrick and “Shining”-esque or something like… feel those wides before we kind of go on a journey. It's kind of an internal journey. That movie and this movie are both really about self-reflection. Like at the end of the day, like being able to look at yourself in the mirror and, you know, admit your own flaws. Like, it's so easy for us to put the blame on other people. But like I was, I got really inspired of like trying to tell that cinematic visual journey of like, the confrontation with yourself. So you start on those really big wides. And then at times of important moments, like in “Krisha,” there's a scene where I play her son. And it's an important scene for her in that day because it's the big moment of like, okay, this day is not going the way I wanted it to. Like, things are not gonna be that easy. And the way we shot that was a oner, but it was all about isolation. Like we started wide and we started in a two-shot, and then it was all about framing me out and going into Krisha and isolating her. And then building off that as things progress, you know, once she relapses — I feel like it's fine to spoil. The movie’s been out 10 years. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Yeah, I encourage people to watch it before they make their first feature. So yeah you're safe to spoil. 

Trey Edward Shults: So, and then when she relapses and she enters some inebriation, she has that wine and some pills, then we go to anamorphic for the first time.

So the aspect ratio changes to 2:4:0 and for me, anamorphic, it's a different focus. It's like a shallower focus. Some wider anamorphic lenses can feel a bit warped. Like if you play into it in a certain way, it can feel like a alteration of the mind. So like in “Waves,” I used it for points of inebriation or moments of love, like when these two humans are connecting.

We kind of do that in this movie, too. But yeah, so then you go anamorphic. And then once she kind of wakes up. When the hangover sets in, like realizes what she's done, then we're in 1:3:3, which is to me all about the face, you know, and tightness and confrontation and her having to ultimately confront herself and her own demons.

So if you look at that in a way, to me it's literally, it's like wide wides, 1:8:5, down to 1:3:3 in a face. You know, and then it's about that visual progression of, you know, because you can take the film grammar of like a wide wide, can think, be thought of as a more objective thing, but you can reuse it in a way that's subjective and honest to your character state of mind.

So that, that's what is really interesting to me. When you can have — and that's why the aspect ratio changes or lens changes, those are extremely important in the script because I never want to make those choices just for like random, like, “Oh, let's do this now, let's go there.” It was always very important to be a part of the narrative and the main character's arc, you know? 

Really, this movie hugely included, this movie almost has the same exact visual arc as “Krisha," but we're doing some new stuff with ratios and we're doing some new stuff with like 1:8:5 anamorphic and whatnot.

But it is all about like, you know, starting with the world, the persona if you will, then getting to the self and the soul, as pretentious as it sounds. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: No, I think that's great. And I think the reason it's not pretentious is because you're talking about it in terms of story and character. And like that's should always be our aim. I think it's filmmakers, is to people. Most of your viewers actually won't notice necessarily those choices you're making. 

Trey Edward Shults: Exactly. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: But it will immerse them inevitably in what you're trying to say. 

Trey Edward Shults: Not to bring it back to “Krisha" again, but like the biggest compliment I remember receiving on that movie, we were we were doing film festivals and we were in Iceland and a woman that couldn't even speak English was telling her daughter, because her daughter like, worked the festival and just had her go.

She was like bawling at the end of the movie. And she was like, “It's like I, I don't know what it, I felt with her. It's like I went on the, I felt everything she felt.” And like that was the highest compliment. because she didn't know, you know, she didn't know we're going to anamorphic, we're going to 1:3:3, we're leaving 1:8:5 and leaving our wides.

Because it's all meant to be. Yeah, exactly, like just experienced. And hopefully it brings a character closer to like empathy and like feeling how that — sorry, it brings an audience to feeling how that character feels, you know? 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: It's funny though, I sometimes do feel like directing is a negotiation between very specific intentional choices, but also making sure we're not making distracting choices.

Trey Edward Shults: Exactly. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Are you having those conversations with yourself, like as you're making these choices because that feels scary to me.

Trey Edward Shults: 100%. I mean, I would say it, it all, or originally stemmed from, and me, you know, being a young, aspiring filmmaker and having the ambition to like, you know, one, my, my favorite filmmakers are people that make only movies they could make, you know?

So for with “Krisha,” I was trying to make something that felt like only I could make. And…

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Well, you used your family and your house, so there's that!

Trey Edward Shults: I know, exactly — that was very tied to it. And so it was like, so I think for that it was kind of like you have nothing to lose. Like you gotta keep the swing and go for it.

And like there is — I didn't know, I was like, there's a version where I do all of this stuff and people are just gonna be like, this is distracting. Why is that doing that? But I guess too, I had, you know, I had seen other films and certain things were effective on me that I could steal and reuse and recalibrate in some way.

And then I think once I just took the swing and went for it with “Krisha” and the fact that it worked for people, like so many people had that experiential emotional connection regardless of the filmmaking, like the film, well, not regardless, hopefully the filmmaker was all helping them feel that way. But I think that really emboldened me to like — all right.,I know this can work. So if I'm gonna mess with that stuff again, I only want to do it if I feel like it can like hopefully is new and different and I can try new things, but also like build upon that kind of foundation that can work for an experiential experience for someone, if that makes sense.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: It totally makes sense. And it leads me to a question about oners. because I think you use them very well. And again, I find that they can be risky because the fear is that all of a sudden you'll feel the director behind the camera rather than like feel the movie and be with the characters. 

Are you ever nervous in rehearsing and blocking that you're gonna lose like the urgency of a first time take, like by rehearsing it that you won't have sort of the aliveness that you want when you actually go to shoot? 

Trey Edward Shults: It's a great question. The one thing is like every time I rehearse that stuff, I don't want the actors fully performing. Like we have to rehearse blocking a lot of the time, but I'm like, “Don't turn.” I hate when we do — if like we start doing an actual rehearsal, I'm like, “Stop. Let's save it. Can't do any of that until we start rolling.” So like it, it's, I'm never worried about it because they're not turned on in that way.

And it's more mechanical. Like we're just getting the mechanics through to make sure this will all work and then you turn it on and can, and then once it's turned on, then we're still playing and building take to take, you know what I mean? It's not, I’ll have an idea, they’ll have an idea, and we'll push and experiment with stuff.

I will say — One important thing is like, you know, I try to only do oners when it makes sense to the character's journey in some way. But there's also sometimes if you're like in it and doing it and it's not working, you can't just force it. You know what I mean? Like shoe leather and it's becoming some indulgent filmmaking oner thing. You gotta recalibrate and rethink it and come up with a new plan. 

So we also have that a lot to where we end up shot listing this stuff to death and planning it out, all these ideas, but then on the day we can like throw the whole thing out because we know it so well and do something hopefully better.

That's even more impactful, you know? 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Yeah. That's really wise. Come incredibly prepared down to the minute, but feel ready to be adaptive on set if the muses are showing you something else on the day. 

Trey Edward Shults: Absolutely. There's so much magic. So many of the best things I've like shot or been involved with were that.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Totally. 

Trey Edward Shults: So you have to be open to it, man. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: How do you, I know this is like a vague question — How do you know if something's not working? And then how do you know if something is working? I know it at a certain point -t is kind of like your gut, but I guess for our listeners who might feel insecure approaching their first movie, where does that confidence come from of like knowing your own taste to either pivot or continue what you're doing? 

Trey Edward Shults: You feel it. Like it's harder when you're first doing, like I think the cheat code when you're first doing stuff is you gotta work with people you love and trust. So like not just the actors but also the crew, you know?

So like on “Krisha," like to this day, like Drew my DP on that is like one of my best friends. And like when you're working with people you love and trust and you trust their taste, like, you all feel when something's not working, you know? So that's good. Especially when you're first doing stuff, like, that's great confirmation that like if something's off and not working and you're kind of not sure, if others aren't sure then it's not working. 

And when stuff is working, like you think it's working, like they feel it, like every — I’ll look up at my DP or one of my producers or my — I’ve had the same script supervisor on every single movie, we’re co-writing a new movie now. It's like, “Dude, this is beautiful.” Like, you just feel it. So one is like, trust your gut, also cheat code. Try to work with people you love and trust and feel that energy. Don't ignore it and never let like ego get in the way and never worry about director ego of like, you have to have all the answers, it has to be perfect. 

And then yeah, as like, I make more stuff. You know, I think this is, yeah, this is like my fourth feature. I've done a little bit of TV and commercials, and now you just get used to, like, you have to follow your intuition and your gut. And you know, it even goes for writing, right?

Like writing and editing. If multiple people have the same note, then it's probably a note, like there's probably an issue. But when you're in the moment doing this stuff, just be straightforward. Follow your heart and your intuition, and probably if you're working with some people you trust around you, they're gonna be feeling the same way.

You know, and just be open and receptive to that. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Totally. I think to piggyback off what you're saying too, working with not only people you love and trust, but who are very smart, maybe even smarter than you. 

Trey Edward Shults: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: I always tell people like, casting good actors for your first feature is great, but like casting smart actors with good taste might even be more helpful because — 

Trey Edward Shults: I love that. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: — because they, you'd rather have a really smart actor than like a really quote “good” actor because a smart actor will intuit the same things you are and will — I think, will, just what you were saying, like they'll be in the experience of the whole movie rather than just their own performance, which is such an important part of filmmaking, I think. 

Trey Edward Shults: Fantastic advice. I one hundred percent agree. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Speaking of like working with your DP, I feel like there are two types of directors.There are some who are like, “I love writing, I love the experience of directing and I love communicating what I want to my DP and letting them worry about lenses and technicalities.” 

And then there are directors like you who are like big lens dorks and like want to get into, "I got this. Atlas Anamorphic or whatever for “Krishna.”

I, it's funny I went into my first feature thinking I was the first, and then I was like, “Wait a minute. I actually like love bokeh.” I like found myself actually getting like really dorky about lenses, but I love that. What I want to ask you is if you are someone who really understands gear and like the specifics of cinematography, how do you work respectfully with your DP so that you're not doing their job for them? If you're like just as into that stuff as they are. 

Trey Edward Shults: So I will say as geeky as I can be about that, I'm still not as geeky as a DP. Like I basically know enough about it and enough of the geekiness to know how it supports the character in the story and the narrative. Like if it's coming down to like really detailed stuff, then I mean, I can't, I have no clue.

Like I just trust the DP. It’s the like thing I feel like, I feel like they say this in film school, I don't know, but I think it's like, know a bit of everyone's job, like don't know more. It’s not your job to like do it for them, but like, know a bit of everything so you can understand the stuff more.

So for me, it never comes close to crossing that line and I would never wanna shoot my own thing. I also like, I understand beautiful light and like I know when we have a beautiful shot, but if I don't know I'm not ever gonna try to light a scene as good as any of my DPs I've worked with. So yeah I think it's like, for me it's just, yeah, it's just knowing a bit of it, but not crossing that line, you know?

Jeffrey Crane Graham: I guess similarly, like working with actors, do you feel like you have an approach generally with talent or do you feel like you're on like an actor to actor? Like I guess I'd be curious like what do you think the director's job is when working with actors? 

Trey Edward Shults: Great question, man. I honestly, I think it's just like, it's having good taste, you know what I mean?

Like, it's just like being able to have good taste and trust with them. I never give like crazy, elaborate direction or anything. It's always like — it’s just like bringing it back to the character or the scene or the moment, like a reminder, you know? Because sometimes an actor can get like, not lost in the process, but maybe like take a slight wrong turn or like seeing something a little different than you do.

So it's just like reminding them that and just being there to go through it with them and a trust process. So, like to me I think it's having good taste and trust and communication. Like, I wouldn't even know what to tell you of like an elaborate amazing note to like, I don't know, make a bad performance a good one or something, you know what I mean? 

So I do, I just try, yeah. I've already said it, but I try to work — I also, I want to build that rapport before we're on set, you know? So like once you get on set, you already have a trust built up. And it's the ego's aside, nothing's about ego or anything else.  

Jeffrey Crane Graham: I love what you said though.

I think having good taste is kind of the job of a director, right? Because like above all, even if you can't get into that very specific technicality of how something should be lit, you need to know the feeling of how it should be lit or —

Trey Edward Shults: Oh, exactly. Yeah. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Taste might be the most — refining your taste might be the best thing you can do as a director because at the end of the day, that's kind of maybe all we have actually. 

Trey Edward Shults: Totally. It's so true, man.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: So speaking of editing, you edit all your films, so you co-edited a couple, you solo edited some. I cut my first feature, too. I love editing. I think it's one of the most fun parts of the process.

But I will say a lot of people discouraged me. Just because they're like, feature directors should never edit their own stuff. Have you been told that before, and you keep doing it so you must disagree?

Trey Edward Shults: I don't know that I have, honestly. I think too, I was in such a bubbled situation before “Krisha,” like I had like interned on some editing and, but like for a while I was just like a weirdo alone at my parents' house working for my dad, like studying movies.

I think the other big thing for me with editing is it was always a thing I was highly attracted to. Like, as a little kid, I would like wanna shoot stuff and edit it in the camera. Then as soon as editing software was there, it was just fun for me. And I think now what I've realized doing a couple movies — so the movies I've co-edited also started with me editing solo for a while, then bringing on someone you know. 

And with, there is advice to like — when you edit solo for too long, depending on the project, like you go down the rabbit hole with it and you lose a bit of perspective. So in those cases, I needed like an editing therapist that could help get an objectivity and pull me out and we could collaborate together. 

Why I think I'll probably keep editing my own stuff is there's something, it's like when you write your own stuff, too, you know, there's something intuitive that I remember Isaac, my co-editor on “Waves” told me. He was like, “You make decisions sometimes that like technically would be like a bad editing idea. But it works and it's magical.” Like, he's like, “I don't, I would never do that, but like I don't wanna change it. That really works.” You know what I mean? 

So I was like, I don't know. It's just like you find this intuitive thing with it and a relationship to the material where certain like eureka light bulbs that probably you would've only found doing it yourself, you know?

And then if you need help to rein it in and more objectivity, you can always do that as well. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: I love that answer. It’s just like every process of filmmaking, it ultimately comes down to feeling. And I think you're, I'm the same way where like, I'm not a trained editor and I was lucky on my first feature, someone who listened to this podcast actually was like a big studio editor and just very graciously, like pro bono, walked me through a number of cuts and she sort of said the same thing where she's like, “Why'd you do like an L cut here?” And I was like, “Remind me what that is again.”

Trey Edward Shults: Yeah, exactly. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Ultimately, I just liked this actor's face listening to this more than I liked being on the actor. The story felt more true with this cut. Like, I don't know. 

Trey Edward Shults: To me, I don't know, dude, at the end of the day, for me, you know, I think a lot of us were trying to find movies that like only we could make and we're trying to follow our intuition and it like, that's literally a part of the process right there.

She's like, “Why would you do that?” And you're like, “I don't know. It felt right.” If you just had someone doing that, you know, I don't know. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: I think the thing I'm curious about though is I found in post, one of the things I had to work through was like something maybe felt really good on the day, but then you get to the edit and you're like, this take actually serves the story better.

But yeah, you have to detach yourself from the experience of set and I'm wondering if you have any advice for that and like if you think you're good at that. 

Trey Edward Shults: That's a good question. I don't know that I'm good at it. My first instinct is like when I get in that edit, I'm like, “That was the take, I remember. I know that was the take.” A lot of times that is the take, but to your point, there's sometimes you gotta be, you gotta be hard with yourself and open enough. I actually don't know what the advice is here because a lot of times on set, you can feel that magical thing and that ends up crossing over.

But every now and then it doesn't, you know, so I have no advice but just be — the big thing is, you know, you still you have to be open and objective. It's really hard when it's your baby and your material, and you're so close and attached. But you gotta — it sounds so simple and easy, but it's incredibly difficult — but you have to be as objective and hard on all your material you have, especially in the edit and post because that's like when you make or break a movie. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Yeah. 

Trey Edward Shults: Yeah, always do that. And I said it earlier, but like, if you're getting the same note over it, that's obviously no bueno. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Yeah, I know Sean Baker like, waits a while before he gets into the edit.

Trey Edward Shults: I'm jealous. I can't help myself. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: The next day I'm like, like, let's see it. But while we're talking about post, sound is such a huge part of your work. I was actually amazed by “Krisha” because it's a — I wanna say this respectfully. It's a small production. I'll say that. But the sound is really avant-garde in that movie in a way that I found very bold to have this sort of everyday set that's juxtaposed with really specific intentional filmmaking, and I'd say even more sound that really pushes the story.

Has that always been a part of your work? I feel like I would be intimidated to push sound design as far as you do. 

Trey Edward Shults: Well, I think it happened organically and I'm not gonna lie, when I was like in film study mode, like aspiring filmmaker, all my focus was on, you know, the shooting or the writing.

I was not thinking sonically very much. Maybe I was and I didn't realize it. You know, like it's still affecting you subconsciously. But like once, once I got into that with “Krisha,” what I realized is that — one, I just realized how important music was, but from a sound level, I realized that all these things I'm, what I'm doing with the music and what I'm doing with the shooting is all to put you through her head space and to bring you closer to her.

So why wouldn't we do that with sound? And I was just intuitively, it's like, oh, you know, we should push the sound here and my composer would have a lot of ideas, too. But it, like, it's funny looking back on it, because I didn't really know what I was doing and I didn't even fully have this idea of like this objective sound design and all this stuff.

Now I very much do, and everything we do is very intentional and I work with an incredible sound designer, Johnnie Burn, and we try to push stuff very far. But in “Krisha” days I was just kind of slowly figuring it out that it was just in service for the story in the character at the end of the day.

So even though it might seem like avant garde, bold choices, unusual, it was like, it was so in tandem with the other filmmaking that it just felt right and organic. And again, my intuition was like, “What if we did that? What if we did that?” And then “Krisha” was a funny one because our first, it was crazy — I was about to screen it at South by Southwest and like the sound got messed up. And I like to test it in a theater and you know how that score's kooky. It's like very subjective and crazy. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: It's like beeps and it's like staccato. 

Trey Edward Shults: Yeah, exactly. I am test screening, I think we're like a day or so before South By Starts, and I'm test screening the thing in a theater we're gonna play and the score comes on and it's like [imitates loud noises]. Like way above everything else. And I'm like, “All right. My career's ruined. My future's ruined. Everything is terrible.” And then luckily we got it fixed and then our sound mix was still kind of a mess. Even in South, but not that much of a mess. Like no one really noticed it. 

But then I got to work with Michael Semanick at Skywalker before we went to Cannes, and I learned a lot from him. Like hearing stories of him working with these great filmmakers and just seeing he would have so many subjective, cool ideas. So I think it was a fusion of all of that stuff and kind of learning as you go.  

Jeffrey Crane Graham: That is so hard though. For your first feature, you have to, for anyone who hasn't ever made a feature before, like you have multiple different versions of the mix and some are for the TV screen and some are for different platforms and some are for the movie theater. And it's like your 5.1 mix or whatever. It's your surround sound mix. But there's no way to actually test that when you're like a little filmmaker in your kitchen editing on Premiere.

So I went through the same thing and I don't know. Do you have any advice for filmmakers who are trying to mix their first movie, but they're stuck in their kitchen and they have a festival coming? Like that's a very tangible difficulty that we face. 

Trey Edward Shults: Very hard. It was tricky, so like it's such a sloppy thing for me.

I mean, I know this isn't mixing, but like I found my composer Brian Mcomber for “Krisha” and “It Comes at Night” because I liked his work and emailed him, like literally I just found him online and emailed him and he saw the “Krisha” short and he was like, “Actually, I kind of wanna work on this.This is cool." And I was like, whoa, this is amazing. 

The sound was sloppier. I don't wanna throw anyone on the bus, but my buddy knew these guys that were real professional, worked for a big filmmaker and I was like, “We're gonna be swimming. This is incredible.” We got the guys, and then I get on the mix stage and I don't really know what I'm doing. But I know what they're doing isn't working. And I know they're viewing my movie as just like a quick little thing to like get off their list. Like they're doing the kid a favor, but they didn't, weren't putting their heart and soul in it. And like push. 

So like my one advice. It's tricky, but like, I don't know, man. Try to look into it. Find some people online, talk to some friends, find some connections. But the more you can find someone that's gonna come at it from a harder working personal attachment place versus like the big guy that's cutting you a slack and giving you some break might be very good.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: That's amazing advice actually. Like, cool. The note there is for your first feature because you inevitably won't have the rates that you're able to deservedly offer people. You might actually be better to find someone who's a little earlier in their career, but incredibly passionate about the project.

Trey Edward Shults: Exactly. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Rather than someone with a huge client list that you're just one check mark on, because no one's gonna care about the movie more than you. But other people who are building their career along with you would care about it more than. Maybe the super award nominated sound mixer who forgot that they have the mix that day and pushed through it the hour before you get there.

Trey Edward Shults: Exactly. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Okay, so one of the segments we're doing on the show is called Scene Study, where we take a specific scene from the movies we're talking about and sort of break it down with the writer/directors we're bringing on. The sort of montage I got from you, there’s one scene between The Weeknd and Jenna Ortega that I loved because I felt like it was an homage to a scene that we often see in movies, which is like people connecting over art, and it's, Abel is sharing, I think presumably a demo that he had been working on.

And Jenna Ortega's character gets very emotional. And I, the thing I loved about it was I felt like you were like riffing on a trope that we love in movies, which is like, or in our own life, when we connect with someone over shared taste and have like an intimate moment over art. Can you talk about that scene a little bit and tell me if I'm getting it totally wrong?

Trey Edward Shults: No, you were getting it very correct and basically I mean — okay, so that scene in particular. So one way I want you to take it is exactly that, and then there's a whole other level. If we're going to the Bergman “Persona" place and like this whole like metaphorical study level that maybe what she — I’m going into kind of pretentious spoiler territory, but maybe what she is saying exactly applies to him as well, if that makes sense. And it's maybe, it's not just two souls connecting over this thing, but it's one that sounds a little silly, but I think when you see the whole movie and there's a lot of like Carl Jung’s Red Book going on and symbolism and stuff. 

So even from a writing standpoint, I wanted it to work in both of those ways. And either way, yes, to your point, I wanted it to be in the reality way that we're talking about, I wanted it to be just like a deep, powerful connection over something between two people and these two souls aligning, and even the colors that come on that unites their hands and everything.

To me it feels like two subconsciouses. Subconsciously merging into one. And past that too, I wanted to shoot it just super simple. Like there’s a lot of chaos, there's a lot of stuff going on in the movie, and it did like, literally just two closeups, like one ultra close and one a little less close.

And that's it. And just let these two humans interact. And one fun little note I think it really helped, but like we were just talking sound design, but when we had the scene, when we had the song, almost like, I don't know, just like loud exactly what you would expect. Like that demo plane at the elegant, perfect level and them connecting and looking, you know, it like works.

It was a lovely scene, but it felt like a little too cute. Johnnie tried one time just like turning down the demo even more to like, make it as real as possible. Our phones aren't that loud, like maybe they sound loud, but like, let's just play reality of the phone.

It's really low, but buff up all their little, like wiggles, like their hands their breathing, like every little thing. And then it made the scene so gorgeous and intimate. And it's just another example of like. Just like, it's like writing, right? Like you go over it and over it and polish it and like, this was like discovered on our second sound mix, late in the stage, and we thought we had a great scene and we were happy with it.

And then that one little adjustment was like, “Oh my god, this is like world's apart better.” 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: I've had that experience before. I find it strange a lot of the time, 95% of the work will get you to good, and then 5% extra will get you to phenomenal. 

Trey Edward Shults: Yes. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: And I find that with writing where like a fifth draft, you know, will feel good, but then I — but the weird thing about that last 5% is sometimes it takes 90% of the work like it. 

Trey Edward Shults: I realized it with this movie especially just because I mean, look, the right process was the opposite. It was quick and let's go and let's do it. But the post process was longest post I'd ever had because, you know, the idea was — even though I wanted it to just work as a film, it's still attached to an album. And an album didn't exist. So he just sat in post-production while he had to make an album. Especially the sound design and the edit — my first cut of this was like two hours and 10 minutes. Watched it with my wife. I'm like, “I think it's done. This is like, I love it. This feels great.” 

And then the final cut you end up seeing is like an hour and 40 minutes without credits. It's an hour 45 with. Very similar movies, but it's stronger. It's like, you’re harder on it. Shave out those, what is it, like 30 minutes or something? 30, 25 minutes. And that's one example. 

The sound design I just gave is another example. We've talked about the writing, but the more you can get to that final percentage and don't just settle even though you think it's great. Keep pushing and get feedback.

You know, show people and get feedback and like, think on it. The more time you have with it and you're, and you truly push you'll discover that final percentage. It's like incredible. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Yeah. So I have been feeling like in meetings and just in general, that people's attention spans and ability to watch challenging movies is getting worse and worse.

And you know, like second screening is a huge part. 

Trey Edward Shults: I hate it. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: I know. And I feel like your work is pretty oppositional to that idea. Are you negotiating this in your career? Like are you thinking about this — the industry feels like it's changing and people's tastes are changing. I love how committed you are to what you do, but I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on it.

Trey Edward Shults: Luckily I've been able to avoid it in the things that have actually gotten made. The things that didn't get made, I did not avoid it. And it is something like, it’s frustrating when you're working on something and we've been talking about intuition, all your heart and soul and intuition and gut and your main collaborator, you're like, “This is the stronger version. But like, they're not gonna make this if we don't at least meet them halfway and try to do something.” 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Right. 

Trey Edward Shults: And then you go on that. I don't know. My only experience with that, you go in on that journey and then for me, like the thing did get worse and they ultimately didn't make it and then we just wanted to like go back to what it was.

But yeah, it is something that's happening and you know, I hear there's things — Netflix is an example. Like you have to have some, like if the movie, certain things have to hook really hard in the beginning because if people turn off their movies right away, it's like horrible for their numbers and their algorithm and everything.

So I don't know what my advice would be with this stuff because I'm still figuring it out myself. But I don't know man, end of the day, the funny thing is — the thing I'm writing is still there. It’s like sticking to what I like to do, but like it would require even more money and everything. So like my only advice right now is just like keep trying, keep pushing and just try to like — it's hard, like try to put creativity first. 

I will say I've been through experiences too. Not necessarily writing, but like post-production, like post-production on both of my movies, “Waves” and “It Comes at Night” were hard. Like on “It Comes at Night,” it was like stress over the ending with the financiers and with “Waves,” it was like running time and notes and wanting to change the movie to something else. And like, it almost lost that movie along the way. Like we almost broke it. And it wasn't gonna work, but it's like you just have to like — you keep battling through it and keep you have to be smart in how you, like, negotiate it with them and figure that stuff out.

But you can't just give in and give up because then it's just gonna be a weaker thing. You know what I mean? But also sometimes the funny thing too is you'll think like, “Oh this note, this it is like the worst thing ever. They're idiots,” and then like, you can think about, like what is the note behind the note — no, they want this for this reason, but actually maybe we can do something really cool with this that we weren't even thinking.

So, yeah, it's a process. I'm still trying to figure out. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: You mentioned “Waves.” I adore that movie. It's funny, you said you weren’t as happy as you could be with the reception of that movie. And my feeling is that it like showed up on a bunch of top 10 lists and I don't know, I think it's kind of a masterpiece, but — do you mind sharing a little bit how you're, how you feel about that movie?

Trey Edward Shults: I just kind of, it was a weird process because like shooting that movie was incredible. It was the best summer of my life. Editing the movie, fluctuated from like, being the best and worst time in my life and like A24 really put us through a grinder with it of like, running time really. So basically, I had a movie that was too long, they weren't gonna release, and they were like, you have to hit this number.

And I had a movie that was like three and a half hours that they wanted to be two hours and 15 minutes. So you can't just do that and like make the thing great. So we had to like get in — that’s when Isaac came on too — we had to get in there, break the movie a million times over before we could figure out some new ways to connect narrative that we weren't thinking about that feels completely intentional and holistic and is still very honest and true to the movie. 

So I was like — long story short, that process was very hard, very difficult. I thought the movie wasn't gonna work. Luckily we got it there. I love that movie. I'm so proud of my, that's my most personal film I've made. It's my baby. And then they, it, I just went on this festival tour where it was like, started with Telluride, then went to Toronto, and then did all these regional small festivals I had never heard of. And basically my travel from like September to December was like a plane almost every day doing a new Q&A talking about the movie.

And, you know, at the time too, there were certain interviewers, certain people, they were mad. I was a white person that made that film with a black family. I would, you know, I would say how, you know, it was unorthodox in the way I worked on it with Kelvin and everything, but it was, you know, it was a heavy, it wasn't just fun Q&As.

Yeah, it was like a rigorous hard thing, hard schedule. And then by the end of it, it felt like some things that, you know, I was promised in terms of marketing, spin and awareness, those never happened. And at the end, like the movie finally came out and like no one saw it. Like at that time, like, critics were very kind and that was huge for me.

But I was like, you know, after doing "It Comes at Night where everyone hated it when it came out because they wanted to jump-out-of-your-seat horror movie because that's what it was marketed as. And I was just trying to like make a movie about grief for my dad dying from cancer and then to going into “Waves” where like no one saw it at the end of all that. 

And then the pandemic hitting and I was like, from that editing process, through that press run was like the most like depressed, burnt out I'd ever been in my life. It just felt like it was all for nothing and it, and when you're in the, when you're not on the outside and you're just in it, from my perspective, no one saw the movie. No one's ever gonna see the movie. Some critics were kind, but it's my baby. I want this movie in this world. I hope people discover it. But it's very discouraging, right? So like, especially when you put, I like that movie is building for 10 years and you do all of this stuff and then yeah, it's just like I, I hope people see it. I don't know. Now I don't know what to do. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Well that all makes a lot of sense. What I can say as someone who really likes your work is you've done a great job building a career and that movie will stand in your oeuvre as like a really high achievement, so —

Trey Edward Shults: I hope so. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Yeah. It's one of those things where like you can only make good things or try and see what happens with them, but — 

Trey Edward Shults: I'm being told that like a lot of, like kids are loving it now.

I don't, like a lot of people are starting to discover it and stuff, so I just hope that continues because, yeah. I don't want to knock — I’m so proud of that movie. It's my baby. Yeah. But it was rough going through it, you know. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Well, I've gotta let you go, but the last question we ask is just a recent recommendation. So something you've seen lately. It could be TV, it could be film. What are you liking?  

Trey Edward Shults: Holy. The first thing that jumps in my head is so random — “Terminator Two.” 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Oh, that's great. Of course. 

Trey Edward Shults: It's, you know, at least for me, my journey was like, you start with like the movies you love as a kid. It's like, for me it was a lot of James Cameron, Steven Spielberg, and then you I saw “Clockwork Orange” and “Boogie Nights” and “Raging Bull” and they blew my mind and I prioritized those films so much more than the OG Classics that I loved as a kid and stuff. And then you don't see a movie for a while.

And then, yeah, I put on “Terminator Two” and I'm like, “This is phenomenal. This is one of the best action films ever made.” It holds up. The writing's incredible. The stories are there, the themes are there, the actions there, that I'm like, man, I wanna make something like this. This is amazing.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: So does any part of you wanna do something a little more like genre? I mean, because I agree. I just watched “Speed” the other day and I was like, “Shit, this is good.” Like, that's another one. I know it’s also a perfect script. That's part of it too, is it's so elegantly written, but it's elegant.

I don't know, it'd be interesting to see your take on like a blockbuster. Like is that interesting to you at all, or? 

Trey Edward Shults: It is, in terms of like, what I don't find interesting is if it's, if you, I'm not making any implications for anyone, but if you make a big jump to a big movie and you're more like a puppet, you know what I mean?

But the idea of doing a more mainstream thing that feels as equally passionate and like the films we just mentioned, that would be incredible. So who knows? I don't know. I mean, the next thing I'm trying to do has a little bit of that, but is still definitely a heavy drama, so. I don't know. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Cool. 

Trey Edward Shults: We'll see where it goes. But yeah, I thought it was fun just to like, yeah, nothing new recently, but then “T Two” like inspired the hell out of me. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Yeah, it's good. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, Trey. I've loved talking to you. 

Trey Edward Shults: Thank you.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: I wanna let our audience know “Hurry Up Tomorrow” comes out in about a week, I think May 16th, is that right? 

Trey Edward Shults: Yes, sir. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: It's great. I've only seen like 28 minutes of sort of a mood reel, but it's really, especially if you like The Weeknd's work, I think it's a really cool visualization of the way his music sounds and cool, like everything you make, it's beautifully shot and very evocative. Like it, you'll, the movie's an experience as much as it is a movie. 

Trey Edward Shults: Thank you brother, and I can't wait for you to see the rest of the film. Yeah, you gotta let me know what you think once you do. I'm immensely proud of it. As proud of it as like anything I've made. So, yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This is a pleasure. 

Jeffrey Crane Graham: I loved talking with Trey and I learned so much from what he shared. He's a bold, stylistic director with a very specific taste, but never for the sake of showing off. His goal is always to immerse the audience in the psychological experience of his characters and that kind of filmmaking is at its core of vulnerable act.

Trey's always brought that vulnerability to his work, and he was so generous in discussing his complicated relationship with “Waves,” a film that I consider a masterpiece. It’s a powerful reminder that even the most accomplished filmmakers carry insecurities, and that sometimes leaning into those insecurities is what fuels our best work.

I'm walking away from this conversation feeling inspired to take bigger risks, not just on the page but with the camera. So thanks, Trey. 

“Hurry Up Tomorrow” is in theaters now, and this is my PSA to remind you to support independent film. This movie was produced outside the studio system, and if we want interesting auteur-driven work to keep thriving in the business, it's so important that we show up and grab a seat in the theater.

Last thing I've heard from a lot of you asking for more guests whose work features smaller budgets and less conventional stars. Don't worry, that's coming soon. In the meantime, remember your dreams don't require anyone else's permission.