247 | Directing Fundamentals That Make You a Better Writer (ft. Rob Spera)

Whether you're on set or on the page, great storytelling relies on clarity, efficiency, and emotional truth. This week, veteran director Rob Spera joins us to discuss his new handbook on the fundamentals of directing — and how those same principles can elevate your screenwriting. From working with actors to mastering visual storytelling, Rob shares actionable insights that will sharpen your craft and help you write with a director’s eye.

BUY ROB'S BOOK: https://www.amazon.com/FILM-DIRECTORS-FIELD-MANUAL-Filmmaking/dp/1662850549

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve and I'm so excited to be welcoming Rob Spera to the show today. Rob has an extensive background in film, television, and theater, and 20 years of teaching at AFI. Recent credits include Criminal Minds, Supernatural, and The Sweet Life. His new book, film TV Director's Field Manual 70 Maxims to Change Your Filmmaking is just an incredible, practical, insightful look at the craft of directing, which in turn is about storytelling.

Rob: Hey, thanks Meg. It's so great to be here. Thanks for the opportunity.

Meg: Oh, this is gonna be such a treat for me. I've known Rob for many years, and of course, when your friends tell you I wrote a book, you're like, oh, yay. I'm so good. Oh boy.

I so hope it's good. And it's so good.

Rob: Good. That's great. Thank you.

Meg: Just last night I was talking to my son about it and saying, Rob says this, and it was really fun. We'll get into it exactly, because I this point in the book. I now get to quote you and say, I, you're my friend, and it's really fun. Okay. But first, before we jump into the book, we're gonna talk about our week or what we like to call adventures in screenwriting. I'll start super simple. I, as everyone knows who's been listening to this show, I've been struggling with a project in terms of not liking it, but it's due.

Meaning I loved it to start, and now I, then I went into the, oh my God, none of this works stage. Which means I don't like it anymore because none of it works. And I just was, you gotta, especially with my writing partner, you just have to hang in and keep pounding at it. And I had that experience the other day where we had put in the outline, so we're trying to expand the outline, not into a script, but just, okay, what even works here and what do we have to see through to earn later and all that stuff.

And I got to this scene towards the end of Act two and in the outline it says, I'll just make it up. Jack is supposed to be there to do this big betrayal. And I was like, who's a dad? And I wa but when I got there and I was writing it, all of a sudden it wasn't Jack who was standing there, it was his son Dean.

And I was like oh my gosh, Dean, what are you doing here? And I was like, oh, that's much, much better. Which is funny because I just felt so great when the Dreamer takes over and starts telling you, no matter how much of your intellect you have decided this is how it has to be. This is actually where your dreamer, brain, writer brain wants to go.

And it was so fun. It's my favorite part of the process is when the dreamer takes over and you start watching the movie. I just think that's the best. Now to be fair, as of this morning, it may be going back to the way it was, but I did get that moment and what it did, whether we end up having it be dean there or whoever, it made my brain open up to being able to look at this moment in a completely new way.

So it did bring in all new ideas. We, I think we're gonna go back to who's standing there, but because I was so dramatic in my muses thinking about the story just by switching who it is. I think it really helped me be able to make big changes and choices about what's happening here, because I got to see it in such a different way.

So I still think it's valuable. I'll tell you next week, I'll tell you, but I love, that's my favorite part of writing. It's why I do it. Honestly. It's one of the only reasons I do it is because suddenly it takes over and that deeper storyteller comes forward and you realize why you're even doing this to start with.

So I love that and I think it's been good food for the storytelling process. Rob, how was your week?

Rob: I had a great week and, but the highlight for me happened last night actually. I was I don't know if you know this, I've I'm head of directing at Ride Back Rise now.

Meg: Yes.

Rob: And yeah, and we brought in Issa Rae last night and she was just amazing and just an inspiration, just the amount of, she's just so single-minded, so resourceful, so courageous.

She's done that, that do it yourself mentality from the very beginning that she had and just said, I'm gonna make things. And and that's basically been her approach and she's never changed it. She's just making things and kind of paving the way for herself. So it's it was an hour of inspiration.

Meg: I love that. Of course now I'm like she has to come on our show. You've just convinced me she has to come on the show. Yeah.

Rob: Yeah. I, yeah, I would, I highly recommend it. Yeah. And and talking about your high there. It's, I get so so technical writing all the time that I really have to, the first part of the writing phase for me is really just that mechanical, just deliberate, methodical.

And then I always make sure I've got at least an hour or two after to do something that is completely different that just frees my brain up and let everything flow at that point. But those moments are amazing.

Meg: Do you mean every day of writing you save an hour or two to do it and, or do you mean in terms of the overall process?

You save some time to do it?

Rob: The daily process. Daily.

Meg: So the daily process, you always save time. And are you writing, do you mean within the script you're writing or what you're writing that you're gonna save time to just be like, now let's not worry about it and do whatever we want? Or do you feel like you're going to a different project to be able to do that?

Rob: I try to abandon any thought about the project. My, my brain is my, in some cases my worst enemy, right? So I've got to, I'm a carpenter so I, if I can go in and do carpentry work, right after that is, this locks up my brain and then the flow really starts happening. I love it.

I've hit the flow you're talking about once or twice in 40 years. So I have to build a lot of chairs and tables in order to actually write a screenplay. So it's a,

Meg: I love that because, I do crafting, but yeah, like practically old lady crafting I'm never gonna show it to anybody and I haven't done it in years and I need to go back to it.

But what I found was. I like my fingers want to be the thing that's crafting something, so the brain just stop I do this thing to this thing because the brain doesn't need to get involved. Now it's it's, I want the creativity to come through my fingers. I would think carpentry would be the same.

Rob: Yeah.

It's identical. And the great thing about it is, the wood doesn't talk back to you. The wood just wood does what wood does on every day.

Meg: It's just, and it kind of is like the laws of physics and science.

Rob: That's right.

Meg: If you do this, that's gonna happen to the wood.

Rob: That's just, that's correct.

Meg: Versus -- wait. Are the stories talking back to you?

Rob: Not all the time. But but as you sit there and you're working right, the ideas just start to flow. Those moments where you turn all of a sudden it's not the, that's the sun, right? That is my head explodes when that kind of thing happens.

It's so fresh and raw and you never saw it coming.

Meg: And you never saw it coming. And then you're like but then of course, immediately the critic comes in and goes, you've set none of this up, and how does that happen? And how did he even find out? Why isn't it the dead? Because it's all been set up to be the dead.

So maybe you should just say, and you're just like, okay, can I just enjoy this for a week?

Rob: That's right. That's it.

Meg: It. It does. Talk back to me. My story talks back to me all day long, and now you're a writing partner, so really somebody's talking back to me. That's right. Like with a writing partner, it's even double where you're like, oh my God, I think this is so good.

Isn't this a good idea? And your writing partner goes, I don't know. I mean, yeah, maybe. And you're like, get excited. Please get excited. I just, and then you have to convince them and, but that is awesomely why with a partner things get better faster because you just, but sometimes it's madness. Yeah.

And I really think I have to go back and start crafting because I need someplace that's not talking back to me. I love that. I love that. I hope you all have that out there, listeners. Something to do. That's creative and, but it's kind of like a warm bath. I know what I find hard though, a lot. Let me ask you this question and then we'll get to the book, I think what happens to me with doing something else creative that is doesn't talk back and it's your fingers or whatever, right? I still have to go through the beginner stage, which is this kind of sucks. And what I have in my head isn't this. Do you feel like you've been a carpenter for so long that you have the wonderful ability now to just go in and do it, or do you still in the carpentry still hit the Well, that didn't work?

Rob: No, because I've completely by design, abandoned any thought of project. Any thought of the script. I'm just, I'm there doing the carpentry.

Meg: But what if the carpentry doesn't work?

Well? What happens when the, when this chair isn't level or whatever?

Rob: You're actively working it, you're actively fixing it.

You're actively making adjustments. You're immersed in the process and it's entirely physical. My dad when he, when I was growing up, he always told me very simple man, very simple explanations, right? And he said, whenever you got a real emotional problem, just go out in the backyard and dig a hole.

Meg: God, I love that.

Rob: That's it. That's it. Dig a hole. And they said, yeah, dig a hole. So for a while I dug holes and it it always worked. So you're focused on the hole. You're not or the carpentry or the table. And you're actively measuring, you're actively doing all those great things. And all of a sudden it, what happened to you?

Happens to me. It slips in the idea goes, three or four it's three or four times better than you ever imagined, right?

Meg: Oh, I love that. That's when my husband's sweeping, I'm like, uhoh. That's his whole dig. Okay.

Rob, what I love about your book is I've read a lot of books on craft and directing all the way from, years ago to now, and the famous directors who've written biographies and they've written how to books and what I love about your book specifically and why I encourage everybody to have it, it is a handbook.

It is a, it's something that you describe in your book as having in your back pocket. It's things you can dip in and out of, meaning just, I love to open it and just go through the pages and find one. Yeah. That's great. Can you talk a little bit about why you chose to make the book like that? And I just think it's such an important highlight of how wonderfully easy and accessible the book is.

Rob: Sure. I'm, when I, my students over the years would always ask me for book recommendations. And I always found myself hesitant because there was nothing I could say, yes, read this and it'll change your filmmaking. And those books are I have all of them. I, my shelves are stuffed with them and I could not make it past a chapter or two.

Well-written really intelligent, enlightened filmmakers who wrote them. But they they, they did not make it past theory into practice. There were too dense, there was too much. So I wanted to, I kind of set it out to write a, what I called an anti textbook, right? An anti textbook that would distill right core values into their essence.

That would kind of take would be very simple in execution, but complex results down the road, right? So how do you, can you kind of mathematically break down what the director is doing and have immediate access to it? Put it into practical terms, and then actually see the far reaching results down the road.

And for me, I always wanted to, you can't carry those big textbooks around. And also it doesn't inspire confidence in people, if you're carrying your big textbook around to the set. So I wanted something that had quick access, you put in your back pocket, and I always, I really envied the cinematographers who had their little black aSD manual. So I wanted a manual and so I just wrote one. And it's something you do dip into it. It's something that was, I, it's really, it's what came off the back of my binder. My binder my onset binder has all these maxims over the years just written out notations. And I always refer to them right before I shoot a scene.

Sometimes right after I, I rehearse the scene. Just wanna make sure I'm on point. And this is there for that purpose. So you have quick access in your back pocket and and quick actionable items that you can do immediately.

Meg: It's so fun. It's so great. It's so practical.

Rob: Thank you.

Meg: And so illuminating.

Rob: Thank you.

Meg: One of your maxims under leadership I thought was interesting 'cause it's not generally what we think of in terms of directors, and maybe that is an archetypical stereotype that I'm thinking of, but you stress, kindness and humility as essential attributes of a good director. When we see directors on TV that are not kindness and humility, they're not of course I do know directors who embody that, but what for you?

Why is that a good, and I think as writers, we can approach our work with kindness and humility to ourselves. So what is, why is that important to you?

Rob: I think if we're, if we are at all hoping to tell very simple human stories we've got to be treating everyone around us, right? With a great sense of humanity.

I think it starts there. And I think all of that ends up on the screen. I know. I think you can't be attempting to paint a human story with any degree of real true vulnerability or depth and not be living those things, especially with the community that's forming around you, that community.

It is your responsibility to, to build, to take care of so that they are ready to give you all the elements that they bring to the table. It's it's not and not to say that, I, when I first started out, there's so many directors are juggling so many responsibilities.

And many cases, some of them were, we're up to and some of them were not. Up to, they, we have good days and bad days, and that pressure can can take a toll on you. And in the beginning, I tried the other way and I know it doesn't work. And it's gotten to the point over time where.

I have an immense commitment to the material. I have immense commitment to the message. What I find just as exciting and as rewarding, maybe more rewarding is the community that I'm forming around me, right? And if I remember anything five years later, right? It's the people, it's the relationships, it's it's what we shared.

And that, to me has become the most important value in the work. So for me, that's why I go to work for that purpose. It's why I teach. It's that sharing and it's what you remember is where the real value is. And I think that really ends up on the screen.

Meg: I think it ends up on the screen too, when, as a writer, and listen, I'm really good at beating myself up, don't get me wrong, but you have to at some point also have that kindness for yourself.

Yes. And that vulnerability. Because if you're up in your brain all worried about beating yourself up, and that will somehow get better writing, I don't know that it does. Maybe it gets you to put your butt in the chair, which is good, right? But at some point you have to open up to the vulnerability of the story being chaotic and the story not working, and the vulnerability of your characters.

And so to me that is also part of the, and if you can do that as a writer into the breach first, and then you get a director, like you're talking about who's doing it and creating that space for the actor, it does, that vulnerability will move through the process.

What do you mean in the, in one of your Maxim says, listen to your film?

Rob: Yeah. I think, we as directives, we prepare for many months, sometimes many years. And we're alone kind of in a vacuum. And then we get to the set and this is where the movie is beginning. This is the true birth of it. And that and it's gonna talk to you, right? You're gonna see the actors on the locations for the first time.

You're gonna see them lit for the first time, right? You're gonna see them relate to each other for the first time. And the movie will start talking to you telling, you know what, this is the direction you should be heading. I'm not talking about big changes, right? But subtle adjustments that it's really to your advantage to.

To see them, identify them and then move with them. And not be afraid to move with them. 'cause there's still a lot of growth that's gotta take place from the page to the screen. And if you're not open if you're resistant, because you're unsure if you're trying to stick to that intellectual construct that you started with, right?

That's years ago or months ago. It's not fresh and raw and happening with the tools that you have right now. So opening up to it is going to simply enrich particularly with your actors, giving 'em the room. And I don't wanna remiss in terms of the actors, I don't, I'm not suggesting we improvise.

Or let them improvise. You come to the set knowing exactly what you want, exactly how to achieve it, right? But then give them the room, empower them right. To find their way to those places you've selected. And then if they suggest something different. Move in that direction, right? Because it it's living and breathing right in front of you and you've got to embrace it.

Meg: I think that's so true too, of writing that it is a living, breathing thing. It is evolving. And so many writers, I think, fall down because they don't allow that to start happening. They start locking down,

Rob: that's right.

Meg: And just breathing and changing and it's it wants to be part of the conversation, the story, tell the music, I think of them and now it's getting on set.

I mean, for all of you writers, it is gonna get on a set. This process is gonna happen, so it is going to keep moving and breathing without you, which is also terrifying for a writer, right? That is just gonna keep going. But I think that's so true.

Can you, what is the philosophy of two plus two equals five?

Rob: What is two plus equals five? Is. I, how we it's human logic. It has it's not mathematical logic, right? It's it's an understanding that humans are incredibly complex, right? We are incredibly mysterious. We are as confusing to ourselves or maybe more so than even the people around us.

So when we're attempting to bring human beings, then put flesh and blood on the screen we, we have to make sure we're not just simply. Painting them in very one dimensional pieces. So we have many tools as directors, and so the writers see for me, there's a blend. I don't see your job different from my job.

We occupy this space at different times, but we are, we're trying to tell a story ultimately, visually, and we have a lot of tools right around us. So we wanna be able to to identify what those tools are. They are camera, angle, frame, size, blocking, dialogue, the actor. We have all these tools and most importantly, those tools should be non-redundant.

So they each play a different note in a scene. And it's the combination of those notes that actually draw the audience member in.

Meg: Can you give an example? I think one example you used was when Harry Met Sally. Can you, just to help people understand.

Rob: Sure. Yeah. At the end of when Harry met Sally, it's a great love story, right?

And her we're reminded that her last line of dialogue is, I hate you, Harry, I really hate you. And no one left the theater thinking, oh shit. Now we, this is a love story, I thought, right? We know she's in love with him, right? But the combination of the look in her eye the crystal ball spinning at the New Year's Eve party, the music right and the lying in Counterpoint, I hate you.

It's non-redundant, actually tells us, you know what, she loves him, but love is hard. And that completes the equation. So the two plus peoples five equation for me is about setting up a series of elements that the director or the writer is asking the audience member to solve. And in the solution, they are leaning into your film, right?

They are coming up with, oh yeah, she means love is hard. That's what they're doing and that's how they connect. If we have, if all the elements are re are redundant we're asking the audience to feel, so telling them to feel something or telling 'em to think something, we want them to come to that by themselves.

Meg: Is that also kind of trusting the audience?

Rob: Yes. And they're, and they're audiences are so far ahead of us it's such a struggle to, to stay ahead of them, right? And so I think they're smart. They they're expecting you to engage them. And that engagement happens right at the level where we're letting our music do one thing, the light, do something else, the camera angle, do something else, and then the dialogue play and counterpoint.

And for me what kind of broke it open for me was Kelly Reichardt says recently that the lies are in the dialogue. The truth is in the visuals, right? So we're always playing, we're creating an equation, right? And the simplest way to look at it's, the dialogue does one thing. The subtextual elements do something else.

The combination of those two creates a two plus three equals five, which is a human logic response.

Meg: Okay, let me ask you, so I'm a writer. I'm writing and I want, I really am, I'm reaching for this, that it's, what is said is the lie and the subtext and what's happening is the truth.

Rob: That's right.

Meg: How... do I put in parentheses he's lying?

No, of course not. That would the read. So how do you put that on the page?

Rob: I think the, what you have access to what we don't wanna club with a page obviously that's more of like a shooting script. But what we wanna do in the early stages of a script is you can lean on selections of location to help provide a specific set of visual cues.

You can rely on blocking notes, little short, little blocking notes...

Meg: Gimme an example, gimme a short blocking note that would be okay to put in your script. 'cause we're not saying to these emerging writers, put blocking in your script. That's not what we're saying. So give an example.

Rob: That's what I'm saying.

She kneels, she offers him the tape measures, right? Simple solutions, right? Simple pieces of blocking that are going to punctuate and underscore, and then in combination with a piece of dialogue that's going to to counterpoint that. There's a great scene in and Hoosiers, the film with Gene Hackman.

He's, it's a big scene, right? He's taking this little tiny little team in Indiana to the state championships. They're terrified. They show up at this huge stadium for the first time. It's empty. He takes them in for the championship. He he knows they're terrified. He's gotta give 'em a pep talk.

Instead of the kind of chest thumping pep talks we're all used to in sports movies he simply brings the team in and says Ali, I get the tape measure outta my bag. And okay. And they're kind of mystified. He takes the tab, he says, okay, measure the key. And they measure How about 15 feet? 15 feet?

Cool. Okay. Measure the height of the rim. 10 feet. 10 feet. And he says, okay, gentlemen, you'll see that this, the dimensions here are the same dimensions as our gym back in Hickory. So he's letting him know it's just the game you play at home, right? There's nothing in the dialogue that says you can win it or play with your heart, not your head.

All those classic, sports movie. Cliches and using a combination of the physical elements, in many case, the props too against the dialogue is going to create a new idea for the audience.

Meg: I love that. And it's such behavior. It's all about behavior. I love it.

Rob: That's right.

Meg: Is this, okay, so in the book you have another phrase, and then we're gonna jump to the category of story, which I can't wait to get into.

Rob: Oh, good.

Meg: But before we get there, a dictionary of the unspoken. Explain.

Rob: Sure. I think it's, and this I think helps we get your last question too.

Finding... I think there's it's really important to identify physical action in place. Most of the time we get through our days without ever having to tell the truth. I can't remember the last time I told the truth. I'm not a liar. But we don't, we somehow get everything we need in the day with rarely asking for it directly.

We are really good at actually moving the world around us physically with with our physical gestures and how we relate to each other physically. And generally that language is highly defined and we use it all the time and it's the way we get through our days. And what happens though?

We usually leave it behind when we're writing and or directing. So simple things that could be done with a physical gesture, a physical action which has more meaning and more mysterious meaning. We're used to using dialogue to do the same thing. And I spend a good deal of time so studying.

People moving relationships, how we physically relate to each other. I love when I go home to see my family, right? We'll go visit my aunt Angie and I will be sitting there for two hours in the living room and at some point we know it's gonna be time to go. And at that point, my wife will just kind of touch my arm and that means okay, start wrapping this up.

But it still takes 45 minutes of a dance for all of us to go from the living room to the top of the stairs, to the bottom of the stairs, to the door, to the car, getting in the car, rolling down the window, all this physical dance because we don't wanna say goodbye. We don't know how to say goodbye. And and that watching people all day, every day,

Meg: I love that. So you say it in the book, one of the maxims is get to the point which is why backstory is so tempting, but often unnecessary. Which of course is absolutely needed for all of us screenwriters. 'cause we, I love backstory. I love to know where it's all coming from and how it happened, and don't we need to put it in so that everybody understands.

So talk to me about backstory as a backstory junkie that I am.

Rob: I'm a backstory junkie too. I just don't necessarily think it's necessary in the script sometimes. So I think the we need all that information. The problem with it, it helps to us to understand what to write and how to write it.

But in some cases it will suck the life outta your story. What we want, we're trying to capture the human mystery, right? And and if we if we explain it away too easily with, a lot of psychological mumbo jumbo it just robs the character of any real, true interest. The example I've always used is when I first read Jake Lama's book, his autobiography there's a character in it who is, who he believes is a he killed right when he was a young man. And and he was 17 or 18. He mugged the guy, right? He was waiting for a knife. Harry the Boogie. He hit him with the pipe a few times and took the money and ran. The next day in the newspaper, it reported that Harry, the booking was killed.

So he carried this. Just this I guess this fear with him of being caught the rest of his life, right? And the guilt of having killed someone. And on reading that, I thought, yeah that's why he's so self-destructive, right?

And then you watched Raging Bull and Scorsese never even touches on it because I think what that story does is it oversimplifies, right, a very complex human being, which then we can just say, oh yeah he's he's self-destructive because he has all the skills. He thinks he's gonna be caught. He doesn't deserve anything good in his life. All right. That all seems to make sense. That's great math, but I'm done listening.

I'm done paying attention. There's much more interest in that mystery and trying to, so I don't know that it's always that simple or straightforward. And as a writer, and I'm inclined to do it a lot, is try to find meaning and to wrap math around it and say, yeah, X, Y and Z, A, B, and C, this is how it happened.

But then we're robbing ourselves of a character who is truly mystifying and as, mystifying to ourselves. So it's...

Meg: that's why we do what we do.

Rob: That's right.

Meg: I mean, I do, I love to know the psychology of a character. It's kind of my sweet spot in terms of I know that, and oddly where their belief system is and why would they do this, right?

And I like to get people into the belief system of the character so that they can feel like they are them and part they believe what they believe. But I do believe it can't be reductive. In a weird way, you're using the psychology to open it up. And to get people attached. And then, but you don't necessarily have to tell me where it came from.

And it helps if you know that sometimes, like in Inside Out. It was helpful to know where Joy got the idea that Riley has to be happy all the time, which is from Mom. But again, that was deep in the movie and it wasn't a flashback. It actually was happening in real time, so That's right. I love psychology to know it, but I can't be like a crutch.

It has to be deepening what you're doing. No, that's right. And making it more complex. That's right. And I think that how you get out of archetype and tropes.

Rob: Exactly. And the, that especially, I'm referring to the kind of that backstory that you actually introduced in the very first scene of your movie.

We're only supposed to bring backstory in when it's necessary. When do we need to know this? When does the character need to know this? And then it's useful. And then it's not simply an explanation for what's about to happen. It's a deepening equation.

Meg: And I think sometimes for writers, they get so worried because they've heard the maximums, they're not allowed to use backstory, that they don't ever write the backstory.

And I'm like in the beginning, especially in those early drafts, just go ahead and stick it in there because you're gonna write 12 more drafts and there's gonna be plenty of opportunity to drop it out. But you need to know, and you're or the early readers need to know what the intention of this is if it's not coming through, and can you just lift it out?

I don't know. I, some people, some emerging writers get so involved in the rules that they aren't exploring, they aren't trying, they aren't, throw it in there. Does it work? Maybe it's the best backstory ever. But guess what? Odds are, you don't need it eventually, but try. Yeah. So I'm always like, in terms of it's a goal for the future, but you're gonna write a lot of drafts.

So talking about reading a script you talk about make scripts as readable as possible. But you encourage directors to be aware of them. Yes. Because as writers we're always saying, it's gotta be an easy read. Gotta be an easy read. It's gotta be readable. But now for the director, that's a little different.

So talk to us about that.

Rob: Yeah. It's writers are writing for the most part we wanna make a great movie, right? You're also writing to be sold. And you're gonna have a reader who's gonna judge whether or not they like this film. And not always does the reader have the ability to understand what's a good movie on the page.

So the early drafts, I think are they tend to be heavily dialogue expressed with dialogue primarily. Because they're easy reads, they're quick reads, and and the and what the director has to be aware of is even as entertaining as that might be on the page, it's still closer to a literal entertainment.

We now have to move to a shooting script that's gonna actually expose all of this in pictures. And the it's easy to be tricked by a, a real easy read. When I hear easy read, I think, okay, this is gonna need a lot of work to make the trip to the screen. Oh, because a, a movie is we shouldn't be able to read a script and go great fucking movie, because it'd be like looking at, for me, looking at architect's blueprints.

Yeah, I guess that looks like a house. But yeah. Yeah I'm, I, that looks big. Fancy. But it's, this, the screenplay is the same thing. It's a work document, right? But we've also got the problem of having to sell it. So we try to make it as appealing on the surface. But in the transition to the screen, we've gotta put a, apply a different set of metrics to it to make sure we, under we, we expressed what the writer's intentions were.

Meg: And so are you saying too that like we talk a lot about, sometimes writers are such good writers that when you actually pull the writing out, you're like, there's not, it's not happening in behavior, it's not happening. We had to shoot this. All of that writing voice is gone.

So it's just to know, and I do think that your executives and people know what's shootable. It's a movie, it's in behavior. So yeah, it is tricky that to know both, but it does have to be readable in terms of from the writers. Alright, so why are obstacles so valuable in helping reveal who a character really is?

Which I know everybody, including our emerging writers, know that conflict reveals character. I know that, but I wanna hear it from a director's point of view. And because we all forget.

Rob: Yeah it's exactly what you said, right? We can, we expose characters right through their, how they treat their obstacles.

If we without a, without conflict, without a specific conflict and then watching how the character relates to the, to that conflict, what they do in the relationship to the conflict that tells us who they are. So without a good specific, precise conflict in the story, we can't we don't have the opportunity to reveal character.

So as a director, I'm always looking for is there person, the character, active, right? And then, I wanna make sure that that activity is right, pressing 'em up against obstacles that are going to create tension and reveal who they are.

Meg: Okay, so next question, and this is one of the maxims that I was like, oh, this is so good.

Themes need two possible believable outcomes.

This is so big for writers and it's so big for what, I'm gonna go back and look at the script that we're writing. It needs two possible believable outcomes.

Rob: Right. Yeah. We can't be moving toward one idea, right? We can't be moving toward one climactic action that we're setting about proving. We really we really are kind of tasked with building both options that we're moving toward one or both. And both have to be credible. We have to believe the character's capable of both and make sure that the the story all along is building, both ideas throughout.

Meg: Kind of breaks my brain, have to be honest. So I gotta go back, what?

Okay, so the last section I wanna talk about for many reasons. The first reason is often with emerging writers, we tell them, go take an acting class. You need to know what actors are doing with your work and what they need on the page and what they need in your story in order to do their job.

So I wanna talk about directing actors, and the other reason is because, I'm toying with the idea of directing with my partner. But honestly, the thing that keeps me from directing most is fear of actors. Which is ironic considering I worked with one for 10 years. But I don't know what it is.

They terrify me. So I'd love to go through a couple of your maxims around acting.

Rob: Sure.

Meg: The most basic, which I think everybody, some people will know, but it's always good to be reminded. And for our emerging writers, very important that actors need objectives, obstacles, and actions.

Rob: Yeah, that's a the cornerstone of all good dramatic performance, right? And comic, when I say dramatic comics is all the same building blocks, right? So we wanna make sure that they have an objective that moves them forward, right? Something they want, the obstacle that creates conflict or resistance.

But then the next step that we have to identify is what are their actions leading them right through the scene. And generally with film scenes, two to two to three minutes long, you're looking at five to seven story actions. And those translate into beats. So essentially someone wants something from the other character, they try something and that's not working.

So they decide to try it. A new action, something else. And that's where a new beat begins, right? And then they'll try a new action. And these actions are accelerating, right? Or are becoming more more severe as they move through the story, right? And so one action leads to another, to we get to the nth degree action that they take in the scene, and we see what the outcome is.

So without objectives, obstacles, and actions, right? The scene has no integrity, right? It doesn't have a sense of drive, it doesn't have, it doesn't reveal character and in many cases what's important to know about objectives, obstacles, and actions. It's that you should do your best, right?

To avoid even having to talk about them. Because as soon as we film scenes films film acting is really fragile, right? The camera's like a microscope. It sees everything. It even puts things that are not there. So we can have an animated cartoon, right? In which those animations are not feeling anything or doing anything, right?

They're simple representations and still moving audience, right? So the understanding the, where the actor fits into the process, it's not about minimizing the actor's role, it's understanding how they fit into this world of visual filmmaking. So the I directed a lot of theater before.

I I did film and TV and. You're always talking to the actor, you're getting them ready for a two and a half hour take without you right. To your, so you're really kinda wrestling with them and managing two and a half hours of an emotional journey that they're gonna have to actually complete alone when you're in another state doing another play.

And the the thing too we have to look at though in film is right, that camera being like a microscope, sees so much it sees direction. And what we wanna try to do is have more of a hands-off approach to it. And we wanna empower the actor to stay within the scene and come to an understanding of what's happening in the scene by themselves.

That doesn't mean they're gonna be improvising or doing it by themselves. What I like to do is provide them with a very. A simple set of statements that are going to give them a path in the scene, a physical path. And so I might say, and this is I say this every time, every scene, every project.

I might say to the actor, I think you come through the door. I think you might sit at some point. I think you go to the bar and make a drink, but I don't wanna commit to that. And then I think you go to the window and maybe you not sure, maybe you open the blinds, right? So I've given them a very specific physical path, and then I say, but I need your help, can show me if that will work.

And then I let them go. I've, I know where I want the blinds to open. I know where I want to drink made. I know I want 'em to sit, but I need to give them the freedom and the empowerment to do it by themselves. Film scenes are very simple, right? It's not four hours of king l it's two minutes of a scene of reconciliation.

A simple human transaction, that's what it is. A scene of reconciliation, a scene of interrogation, a scene of seduction. We don't need to talk about them for 15 minutes. If we provide the correct physical. Behavior, the physical path, right? That will allow them to fill in the blanks as they go. And then the performance is immediate, it's spontaneous, and it's unpredictable.

That magical performance you're looking for is only gonna happen if you back off and empower them. And it's not about cutting them loose, right? I know exactly how I want this to run. I'll show up on set with at least three to five versions of a scene. I pick my favorite and I work from there. And that way you're getting them to actually own the scene, right?

They're, you're, they're trained. That's what they're trained to do. And we feel so free. I don't feel the same freedom. I would never tell a DP where to put the light, but for some reason, directors feel this freedom, right? To talk to the actors and tell 'em how to get there or what to do. And I think actors just tolerate us for the most part. I think they just, 'cause we hire them, they, that's how it works. I think they tolerate us in so many respects. 'cause we are always kinda stepping over. Are there times where they need help? Yes. In a second take you can discuss objectives and obstacles and actions.

But for the moment, this seems too simple.

Meg: We hope that in the scene written, because we as writers understand obstacles, sorry, objective obstacles and actions, which Lorien and I are always talking about. What does your character want for the whole story and just in this scene objectives.

Literally right now as you're talking, I'm like, I have to go back to that scene. I don't know what her objective is. So I think that hopefully embedded in the scene is the objective, obstacle and actions that you don't have to talk about it 'cause it's...

Rob: that's correct.

Meg: But I also really like your word of this is a scene of reconciliation.

This is a scene. Like those are very active words and it's something else we talk about that actors and scenes need activated emotional words. So reconciliation, is such a beautiful word. So I'm literally thinking, okay, in this scene, what, is there a word I could use for this scene in terms of what's happening between these two people?

Something else you said in the book that I was like, oh, that's really great is rather than playing the emotion, actors should use the emotions as obstacles that interfere with objective, right?

Rob: Yeah. It's we frequently actors are trained, particularly in the US to be emotional and they need to be, they need to have access to an emotional life that on cue all the time.

They've gotta have that. But what in many cases the acting teacher fails to tell them is that they have to play a game of drama, right? When they're actually shooting. And the the game of drama demands that we put a lead on. Emotion. So the emotion's there, right? But we're not actively accessing it.

So we're trying to achieve an objective despite how we feel. And that's how most of our day goes, right? We're going through the day feeling all these things that we know what that person's, my boss, I can tell 'em what I really think right now. So we're suppressing it, right? That's a red light. I'd love to go through it, but I can't, right?

For safety reasons, I can't do it. So we're repressing. That's what we get about life. We understand that day is mostly about not expressing. So our characters have to mirror that. And in many cases our actors who are trained to be emotional they wanna be emotional. And also it feels good to actually let it all out.

It feels great. So when you tell them not to do it, they think it, it feels good, so it must be right. And our job is to make sure we give them a series of objectives and obstacles. And one of them, the primary one is. Repress what you're feeling, not telling you not to feel it. I'm just saying put a lid on it and act despite what you feel.

Meg: And there's great examples in the book of things that you do specifically with actors to try to get that emotion up when you want it, but keep it repressed, which we won't go into, but it's, I just love them. So my last question on acting is for writers like me who are considering directing but are afraid of actors.

What is your overall advice?

Rob: I think I understand why you would be afraid. But I don't think there's any reason to be, I think it ends up being, if you're a writer as specific as you are, right. And you know so much about your material, you know so much about your characters. I think it's really just about staging the scene and allowing it, allowing them to fill the gaps. Allowing them to have their opportunity. So I see it.

Meg: Oh, lemme ask you this. Okay. I'm just gonna get real. I had a chance to with my writing partner at the time, John Morgan direct, a pretty well known actress. Not famous, but very well known. And I think, I don't know if she was trying to teach us a lesson, but she got very aggressive and she was like, what is that word?

What does that word mean? Because, I don't know, I used a word that maybe wasn't active that an actor could quote, unquote play. And she was like, how do I do that? Do you wanna show me how to do that? She got really up in my face, so it's kind of put me off.

Rob: Oh yeah. I'll say.

Meg: I don't wanna deal with actors.

Like, why would you do that? But again, I maybe in her mind, just to give her, she was trying to teach me something. What it did was put me off. But what do you do when an actor says you're a young director. I'm the famous actor. I'm gonna, I'm gonna put you through your paces. Is it the story that saves you?

Like you'd so know the story or what's your advice there?

Rob: Yeah. I think you're coming in holding such high ground, right? It is your story, right? You understand it and you own it. I would in those situations, right? And it's happened two or three times, right? In your life where someone just decides to do something like that to you.

And I always to preempt it and tell them something like when I'm working with someone that's way above me, especially in the beginning, is to pull 'em aside and say, look, I'm gonna need your help in that. I need to make my own mistakes, right? This is my film. I wrote it and I'm gonna be directing it and I definitely need your help, but it'd be great if we can make sure that there's enough room for me to experiment here and do what I want to do.

And I think that. Tends to help. But I think conversations ahead of time with all your people I think is important like that just to kind of set up some ground rules. I always would put the D and say, okay, what happens at midnight when we've got half an hour and two scenes left?

How do we get through that are how do we comp one of us is gonna compromise? Maybe both. How do we actually manage that? And I think talking to them just expressing that honesty I think is is really key. I don't know why someone would go to that length to try to make you feel small when, there's just though it's not necessary, but it happens, I get it. But it does happen and you absolutely, I've even heard of stories of stars doing it to very famous directors.

It's some sort of power thing that happens, but yeah. Yeah.

Meg: I again, yeah, I agree. I love the idea of talking to everybody beforehand. So before we get to our last three questions, I just wanted to ask you in general, as a director for our writers out there what, can you talk a little bit about giving notes to a writer when it's not you as the writer and what, or what Writing-- how should a writer who's working with a director now and getting notes approach it in terms of that relationship? And now it's not necessarily your story anymore as a writer, you have to start adapting to this director.

Maybe another way to ask it is, what's been a great experience working with another writer in terms of giving them notes?

Rob: Yeah, I think what one of the rules I have is I'm not allowed to give a note. I personally, I will not allow myself to give a note unless I have already come up with a good solution.

Not that I want my solution to be the one chosen, but I need to prove to myself that A, there's really a problem, and B, there's really a solution. Otherwise, I don't wanna send someone off, on some half-assed journey because I, something didn't appeal to me or something just not working. So I, that's the standard.

I hold myself to no notes unless I have a solution. And then, and again. Solution doesn't have to be used. I hope it doesn't have to be used. I'm sure they can make it better. And I think the, also understanding as a director that my job is not to necessarily make it my film, is to understand what is the essence of the scene, what's the essence of the movie?

And now I've gotta find ways to make that work. It's too easy to dismiss. I don't get that right. Too bad, right? Someone spent a long fucking time working this out, and they actually took the time to write it down many times. And then send it to you. So you need to give it some thought and some and a serious attention.

You cannot dismiss anything. And then for the writer, I think always understand that it's a process and that and being as open-minded as possible, I think in the exchange from director to writer to director, is there's gotta be a real sense of care and love and support and compassion, because we're all trying to do the same thing.

And egos have to be pushed aside and temperament pushed aside and love the person you're working with. Love what they're trying to do it together and ha and make sure that. You protect the person you're working with, right? That relationship. You are, I think, obligated being a right.

I think you guys have it the hardest and hardest in that just to, it all starts with you. And the arrogance that direct sometimes bring to the table just floors. Me. I think, you know what? You're new to this. You're new here, right? Shut up. Listen to that writer. And I'm not a big fan of the auteur theory at all, right?

I hate the fact that someone wanna try to put their name above a table if they haven't directed it. And even still, it's a fucking insult to, hundreds of people who have trained for years and they're making your movie with you. So I just think take care of people, right?

Do just do the right thing. I. Be nice. Nice. My dad would say.

Meg: I love that. I love that advice for our directors. Our writers need to know you will work with directors who believe you are one tool that they can take in and discard. It's their movie, now you are, do their movie or don't do their movie.

Did you do what they wanted? Did you not like that? Becomes the reality of working as a writer. But I hope all the directors have heard what Rob has said in terms of working with us with respect and that we did take all the time to write this. We might have a reason. But so quick questions here at the end, we like to ask three craft questions.

What, for you as a writer director, what is a great character introduction?

Rob: Oh boy. What in general?

Meg: Yeah, just if you were like, that's a great something that will help our writers who've we've gotta introduce our characters, right? Sure. As a director or what, actors like, or any even small insight would be helpful.

Rob: I, I think to make sure you're not relying exclusively on what they say in, in that moment, right? The so much can be done. We're expecting for that character to make, have an impression on us. And the worst thing we can do is leave it so that the actors have to generate all that, right?

So making sure that we're using all of the elements of storytelling, right? Especially right how we treat deep space or flat space for them. But when are we introducing them a character? If we have a character who's introduced after a first act of all flat space photography, and then this person appears for the first time in deep space, that's going to be right that's going to have a really powerful effect and make an imprint right on the viewer.

So looking to make sure all the tools are in play all the time and not just relying on the dialogue to do that.

Meg: I love that. And what do you do when you get stuck at, you're a writer or on set? Maybe you've gotten stuck on set. I would think that could happen every once in a while. Yes. What is your kind of go-to toolbox for when you get stuck?

Rob: I always as you I mentioned before, is I have my, these maximum on the back of my bind, and now they'll be in my back pocket. But I go to them, right? And I try to reason my way through it in many cases. What I try to do, especially if we're working outdoors, is and the tension start to mount, the idea's not coming.

You're starting to really feel a little overwhelmed or a lot overwhelmed. I try to find like wildlife, right? I'm outside shooting. Just find a bird. So I was once shooting, right? And there's a tree. I'm really fucking overwhelmed by, I can't solve it. It's not working. It's my fault, I'm sure.

And I just look up in the tree and I feel like the world is about to come down, crushing on me, right? And I look up and about 10 feet from me, this fucking bird is just kind of tweeting, looking around. I said, does this fucking bird not get it? Exactly. This world was coming down on me and I thought, you know what?

This is all make believe, right? So just ratcheted down the bird's, fine, you're fine. Let's just relax, take a breath and make this work.

Meg: I love that so much. All right. This has been wonderful. The book is this Times a thousand so good. So quick and easy to read and have little lightning bolts go off in your head.

But we end every episode with the same three questions we ask every guest. So it's your turn, Rob Spera. What brings you the most joy when it comes to your writing or directing, or both?

Let's just say the most joy when it comes to your craft as a storyteller.

Rob: Yeah. Just that that moment where you've you've imagined something, you've been alone in a room for a long time, putting it together and then that moment where in reality it all just.

Comes together in front of you and those few times where it really fucking works. And it just is a, that's just a great payoff, right? Because it's one thing I will remain and I'm, the best thing about me, I think, is that I'm a great student, right? And I just love what we do. I love the craft.

I invest myself in it constantly. Every hour of my day is about it. And then when you actually see it come together, right? The fact that all these adults, 150 adults have gotten together and we've just made this piece of make believe and it all feels so real and right. You had a part in it, and it just, that's it.

That's that for me when it all comes together.

Meg: Oh, good. Okay. What pisses you off about your creative storytelling? The process?

Rob: My brain, I just, my, my brain gets in my way all the time. Always. And it's just annoying. I just, is it like,

Meg: Are you like me and an overthinker?

Rob: Yeah.

Just I wanna, I just want to run away from my brain. It it's served me in some per in some ways, but it's really just a nasty place to to live.

Meg: Oh my goodness. I totally relate, by the way.

Okay. If you could have a coffee with your younger self, what would advice would you give that younger Rob?

Rob: Take a breath and it's all gonna work out, it's just do the work. And the thing that I'd like to share with my students all the time is that the the work is what saves us whether or not we're being hired by a for a hundred million dollar movie or we're shooting something in our backyard with our best friends.

The work is what saves us. And there are periods where all of us go through our, where work for a while, then we don't work for a while, and we work for a while. Then we don't work for a while in order to maintain right. Our passion, the thing that scares me the most and has since I was 22, is that my pilot light would go out.

And I really want, I do my best to keep the pilot light lit. My pilot light is brighter than ever even from when I was just starting. And I think that's really I wanna remind, I have to remind my young self that you're onto it, right? Just keep your pilot light lit and work. Don't worry about who's paying for it or are they paying for it, or you're making a living.

Simply do the work.

Meg: That's so great. That's so great. I love that. Thank you so much for that. In terms of that, my, I was talking to a director and he said, actually it was my son talking to a director and he said, just set a date that you're gonna shoot this thing. Just set the date. Yeah. To me that's like the pilot light too.

You know what, just do it like set the date. It creates energy around it. Set the date that your scripts to set the date that you're going to, that principle photography, to me, that fires up that pilot light.

Rob: I agree. That's so right. That's so right. I agree 100%. It's you gotta, it's, if you don't, it probably won't happen.

Exactly. Exactly. And just setting it.

Meg: And that brain that we have that will overthink us into never doing it.

Rob: That's right. There, there are hundreds of reasons to not do it.

Meg: There's a million reasons to not do any of this. Rob, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you. We're gonna put the book on our workshop site as a big recommend because we just think Excellent.

A wonderful tool for all storytellers and all the different di disciplines of our art.

Rob: Thanks, man. I appreciate all that. I'm really happy that we just got to spend an uninterrupted hour to talk together.

Meg: I know!

Rob: I, I don't know. I don't, has it ever happen? No. No. So I'm just happy we got that.

Meg: I love it. I love it so much. Thanks Rob for being here.

Rob: Sure, sure, sure. Talk soon.

Meg: Okay.

Bye. Bye. Bye.

Thanks so much to Rob for coming on the show. For more support, check out our Facebook group or consider joining us on our TSL workshop site. We've got live workshops going there. We, you can pitch us your story.

We have amazing masterclasses, so I don't know. We got feedback that it's better than film school, so I don't know. You might wanna check it out. And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.