271 | Melissa Rosenberg (Jessica Jones, Dexter): Finding Your Creative Center

Melissa Rosenberg - creator of JESSICA JONES, head writer of DEXTER, and screenwriter of the TWILIGHT films - joins Lorien to talk about what it takes to stay grounded as a storyteller. From building creative communities to rediscovering her artistic voice after decades in Hollywood, Melissa reflects on the evolving balance between ambition, authenticity, and healing through story.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Lorien: Hey everyone. Welcome to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Lorien McKenna, and today we're joined by Emmy nominated TV writer, producer, and screenwriter, Melissa Rosenberg. Melissa was the creator and showrunner of Marvel's critically acclaimed Jessica Jones, which won a Peabody Award in 2015. She served as the head writer and executive producer for the TV series Dexter on Showtime and in the movie world she wrote the screenplays for the film adaptations of the Twilight Series. Welcome to the show, Melissa. 

Melissa: Thank you. Delighted to be here. 

Lorien: So I'm really excited to chat with you about all these projects and procedurals and sort of how to build tension and suspense. But before we do that, we're gonna do adventures in screenwriting or, you know, how was your week?

And I'll go first. So last weekend we were at AFF, Austin Film Festival and it was amazing. And you know, Meg and I do panels and some on our own. I do a mock writer's room, and then after our big event on Saturday night, which was about plot, right? And doing some exercises around what do you want and what is that really like in terms of a physical goal.

And then we have a party after at the bar right there. And I had an opportunity to hear from a lot of people who listen to the show. And this happens every year and I've never really been able to take it in. It's sort of a deflection. I know it's not me. And this was the first year I was able to accept with grace, other people's gratitude for the show because I realized it's bigger than me.

It's the community, it's the feeling of it. It's not just me. And so that allowed me to sort of let it in my body, which made me very vulnerable. And then I talked to this woman who I have always admired an actress and a writer and a producer. And she talked about finding and rediscovering her creative center, which sort of made me… It rocked me back a little bit because I have been confused about what that means and I hadn't realized exactly what I have been trying to do these last three or four years in Hollywood. I have been looking for the creative center my whole life, right? First I was an actress, then a playwright, screenwriter, showrunner.

Now I'm trying to direct, no, I am directing. Sorry, I am directing. I'll rephrase that. And so what I realized is that I've been searching for places. Uh, to put myself in as the creative center or to build opportunities like I created my own theater company where I'm the creative center, but what I've fundamentally misunderstood is an investigation into what my creative center is, and then I have to make.

A choice about how to activate myself into Act three and change how I've been operating, like being so distracted by the hustle and the grind and the business and the finances and, and the desperation, and the fear and the loneliness, and that I've let all that creep to really pollute. What I'm doing, what my mission is, but it feels good and terrifying.

So also, I got a pass that I really didn't wanna get. I really wanted this project, which is just sort of a piece of it, like, was that even the right thing for me to be pursuing, right? Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I'm, I'm learning and I, it's hard. How is your week, Melissa? 

Melissa: Um, very busy. Uh, but I, I, getting a pass, you know, I've been doing this for… I joined the Guild in 92, so 30 some odd years. And, you know, rejection is, is very much a part of the game. And I think I've always said that the, the, the difference between the writers and the waiters or, you know, people who, who want to be doing this, people who make this is tenacity. And it's that, that, you know, you've been kicked into teeth.

It never, it really doesn't get easier. I'm here to tell you that I get kicked in the teeth still, and um, but so you're, you know, you're lying on the ground there bleeding out and you tell yourself, you know, maybe tomorrow it's gonna be better. And it's not. It's not gonna be better tomorrow, but eventually, like if you are able to, if you're able to tell yourself that's enough, you pick yourself up and you go back at it.

And it's, I, I refer to it as delusional optimism, and that's a very necessary part of anyone in this business. Uh, writers, actors, I mean, yeah, the entertainment field is just, you know. Very much a part of, of that being in this field is be knowing is is being able to handle that kick in the teeth, honestly.

Lorien: Yeah. And it hurts every time, even if it's a small thing. Right? Yeah. And 'cause it's, it's, don't take it personally, but it's personal. It's my work and my soul and my creative time and my energy and my families too. And, uh, this one hurt because I wanted it. I was like, I need, well, no, I needed it, which is something different.

And so that it just, in terms of my week, it was a good thing to be reminded of that like, rock back, what am I doing? 

Melissa: Well, in order to, to get the job, we have to, you know, we have to convince ourselves we want it. Mm-hmm. It's different from need, but, you know, 'cause. We're writers, we need to get paid and make a living.

But you know, you end up, you convince yourself you want, you have to fall in love with whatever project you're doing, whether or not it's up your alley or not. Mm-hmm. Um, but the other thing I wanted to say is you're talking about your creative center and. I had the great good fortune of landing. Um, I began my adult life, uh, in college at Bennington College in Vermont.

And one of the things that one sort of core principles of Bennington has always been to. Fully to, to explore and discover one's own personal voice. When where is that creative core and that sort, that is so much a part. It's, it's built into the curriculum, it's built into the ethos. Um, so you come outta there, I didn't necessarily, I didn't necessarily know that I was gonna be a writer.

I was still in the sort of choreography dancer mode, but I had been trained through Bennington to, to se seek out. To, to know what, what clicked and what didn't. And that led me into screenwriting. And so it was a really clear path to be set on. I'm, I've actually been back with Bennington a lot lately.

I've been, I've joined their board of trustees and there's, uh, we're launching a new MFA program. Bennington is very well known for its MFA in writing. Um, and now we're expanding that into an MFA and screenwriting, and it's very much around the same principle of finding one's voice. What is it that we, that we're uniquely qualified to contribute to the world, to the art. What are we trying to say? And, you know, along with, um, you know, the craft that, that can be taught, um, but you also have to bring out that voice and, um, I'm, I'm very excited about this MFA program. 

Lorien: I got my MFA playwriting where, where I. I've never been in a doubt about what my voice is. I get very distracted by other things. Mm-hmm. Like it's that focus and it is that core thing that what I was talking about, I have to keep coming back and checking in and. I, the thing about my MFA program that was so wonderful is that it, I was an adult when I went back, so I was like 28.

Yeah. When I went back to school and it was like, oh, right. Reminding me again. Recentering on. I love this, I love theater. I love talking about theater and writing it and act like doing all the things. And I feel very much, that's where I am right now. And there was a woman in my program who was in her fifties.

And I was so inspired by her. I mean, I felt old at 28. Can you imagine? Yeah. And, um, but she, it, she was doing the same thing, right? Mm-hmm. Trying to reclaim that voice. And that's, I like to think about it that way rather than finding it, it's sort of you're reclaiming it because we had it when we were little.

Melissa: Right. Like even if you come from not an amazing place or childhood, you have that inner pulse, that spark, and it even gets like, taken away from you or, um, you know, somehow it's damaged, but, or, or you, you never figure out there's not the room for it or the right opportunity. Figure out how to realize it, how to translate that voice into a career.

Lorien: What it was for me, is like, I could write pages and pages forever and ever, but it's like that piece of structure, like you said, learning the craft that was so vital for me. Um, but yeah, it's, that's what I loved about. Grad school. You know, for me it was like, you know, I didn't have any money to go to grad school or like I was working full time and doing all these things, but it was a pivotal thing for me.

Um, and I love what you're saying about the program that you went to and that you're involved in and running, is that it is so much about exactly what I was talking about at the beginning of the show, right. Which is like. Claiming it and not forgetting it. Mm-hmm. Because it's so easy to get distracted by that stuff in the business of Hollywood.

Melissa: Well, and I think, I, I wonder if this is true of your MFA program as well. One of the things that you get from being, joining a, a community, yes, you've got and screenwriting television writing in particular, but it's very much a, uh, communal. Project. Mm-hmm. Making a film or a television show is, is requires, you know, it takes a, a pretty hefty village.

And I think part of just the starting of how you start that is with a community of writers who are, you're giving each other feedback, you're reading each other's work. You're, you're bouncing ideas around, you're supporting one another. And, uh, I think that's a huge part of. My ability to keep going. That that delusional optimism and that tenacity is that circle of writers who I, I constantly go back to and, and yeah, 

Lorien: I think that's, I think this is what I love about the podcast is what I show up with a problem every week and then I talk to brilliant people like you.

And I'm like, oh, right. Then I realize what it is I need. And I've always, uh, connected with writers groups and building communities mm-hmm. And doing all the things, and I've realized. Meg and I have built this amazing community around Screenwriting Life podcast, and I love being in a room. But what I have neglected to do is curate fi, not curate, like, um, be open to finding that group of writers again that I can surround myself with to remind me.

Curate's not a bad word. I mean, it is curate.

Melissa: Yeah. Okay. 'Cause you need to, you, you know, you wanna be in a group of people. I mean, that's, you know. If you are, that's why an MFA program is so valuable because it's been pre curated for you in some way. Right, right. But once you're out of there, it's, you're, and you're with a writer's group. It's about. What's most important to me is finding other people who give great notes. 

Lorien: Yeah. 

Melissa: And because I'll be reading their stuff all the time as well. I'd like them to be a good writer as well. Right. You know, so that my, someone who can hear as well. This also trains you to, to give and receive notes from, uh, a network, a studio.

Mm-hmm. And that's a huge part of the profession of screenwriting, is knowing how to take a note. Doing how to, uh, reject a note mm-hmm. In a way. Mm-hmm. You know, all, all of, or how to, you know, take the note and say, okay, well let's undo the note. This is a huge part of being, uh, the, of the profession. So, yeah.

Lorien: Again, you know, and how to give notes, right? That is not you putting your thematic or how I would tell the story or how I would fix it, but like asking questions, poking at things so that the writer can be like, oh, interesting. And that they want to investigate it rather than putting up those defensive shields.

I mean, yeah. When you're giving notes to a friend or a writer, it really is about like, I'm on your side. I'm helping you develop your project. And you know, we've all worked with people who are that and who are not that, and so it's, it's finding that community. I would love to talk to you about the structure and the craft piece.

Sure. Let's do it. And specifically around. I mean, would you call Jessica Jones and Dexter Procedurals? Absolutely. Okay. So what is a procedural for you? Like, how would you define it? 

Melissa: For me, a procedural is, is something that has a very, uh, strong engine, um, of a particular kind. You know, it's a case, it's a, a mystery or it's solving something.

Mm-hmm. Um, and this is why typically procedurals land in legal medical. Criminal investigation, that sort of arena, uh, is because a case walks in the door every week. You know, my, my favorite kind of procedural is something like Dexter or Jessica Jones, you know, or her of East Town, or it's the character.

The character are characters that are driving it. So if the case is the engine, the characters are doing the driving, so. For me, that's what makes it interesting. I am, I am, uh, less drawn to a straight ahead, you know, C-S-I-N-C-I-S, which I'm sure are great shows, but there those are, are more, uh, case driven, more plot driven.

Mm-hmm. Um, and th that in itself is very hard to do. I would never call myself an expert on that in that way. So for me, having the character driven. Uh, procedural is, is of most interest, and that's when you have a Dexter or Jessica Jones or you know, name your favorite procedural. Um, and, and what we're really tracking is, is that character's journey.

You know? And in the case of Dexter, it was like Dexter was like an alien who's just landed on earth and just trying to figure out how to be a human being. So every week, every episode takes him, is an exploration of what it is and isn't to be a human being. Yeah. And that's very interesting and, and always moving him.

I think what elevates it to a, you know, you know, a premium show of streaming is, is that it does move forward. You know, and I think in, in network television you're sort of a little bit circular. You're kind of. You know, enough character stuff to keep it interesting, but really it's about the case. So there's that.

But so, so Dexter was that, and for Jessica Jones, it was her, she's haunted by her past, by her origins. You know her, she was her only survivor in her family in a car crash, and that led to her getting superpowers. And so she's in search of, she's that survivor's guilt. She's in search of redemption and in, in search of finding meaning for that loss.

And that is, you know, by making her superpowers mean something, do something. Unfortunately she's got a lot of other scars that are standing in the way of that. Um, but you know, as, as audience members are tapped into that, those two, like that kind of emotional. Journey, that emotional drive, you need to figure it out.

Lorien: You're driving the character forward through the format, the procedural of each episode to be confronted with character conflict, right? So that they're gonna have to sort of break through the challenges. And how do you sustain that over multiple seasons? 

Melissa: I mean, for me it's always about evolving the character.

Uh, and it's about. Putting the character in a new situation, uh, emotionally, you know, a new conflict, a character comes in, um, a change of, you know, organization or leadership or romance, you know, a a, an emotional, romantic connection or whatever it is. It's, you know. Okay. So, you know, Jessica Jones, man, Sheik.

Worked through her past as a, a survivor of, uh, sexual assault. Well, now she's going even deeper into her past in season two when her mother reappears and now she has to deal with that relationship. But then in season three, it's actually about her best friend and dealing with that relationship. So it's, it's, it's always, uh, finding that new way to explore new parts of the character.

Lorien: What I notice with a lot of, uh, emerging writers, uh, that are pitching these ideas is that they'll put the. The trauma of the past, the mother and the best friend all in the pilot, right? Because, because the tempt, we know these things, right? And we wanna create rich, complex women, especially who have drive and motivation.

And we see these brilliant shows like yours that we've experienced through the years. And so we, we learn this whole person. And so we think, oh, I have to set all that up in the pilot and that the pilot has to be the show. It can't just be like it, it has to tell you what the show is gonna be. Mm-hmm. Um, what advice do you have for people who, you know, like you see Breaking bad and you wanna be like, oh, well Walter White is this, and it's like, no, no, no, we need to see him at the very, very beginning, you know, and then it slowly changes.

Melissa: Um, well, as a dilemma, because you also, your, your pilot is one, you wanna sell it, but two, you know, it's your, it is a calling card, it's your. You know, sample. So in, or you, you, you never wanna hold back because you may never get beyond the pilot if it's, you know, so you kind of, as I say, in sports, not that I'm a sports person, but you know, you gotta leave it on the floor, use it.

All. That said, what's more interesting in a pilot is what's hinted at or. It's like this character has a particular flaw. We're not sure where it comes from, but we've seen the flaw and we get the sense that we're gonna find out where it comes from. So there's a mystery involved to, you know, that character.

Um, pilots are really hard to do. We're really hard to do because they're just setting you're, you're building a world, you know, I mean, that's screenwriting as well. That's movies, that's, you know, writing a film is. You have more time to do it, um, to build the world, but it's, it is a hard process, world building.

Lorien: And for those of us, not me obviously, who get distracted by the world building because it's so fun, right? Like, and then I get so over complicated and then having to pull it back in to find like the core of what does the audience, what does a reader need to know in this moment? Of all the things you've written, what's your favorite character introduction that you've written and what makes it your favorite or one of something you.

Yes, that was a banger way to introduce this character. 

Melissa: I, I'm very fond of Jessica Jones' pilot. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, that's, we should get right up front how, who she is at this moment. We tease what's something that has happened to her, um, and we watch her turn around from someone who's basically. Trying to ignore or run from something to someone who's actually gonna do something about it.

Um, and that's the arc for that episode. It's also, you know, this drives you into the, the season to, into the series. Right? And that's what going back to, you know, a pilot, it's very important to, to lay out what the show is going to be, but. In order to do that, you have to figure out what the show is. You have to look at episode 10 or mm-hmm.

12 or eight, whatever it is, the, you know, however many you're doing and know where you're going. What are you building to, um, that's so that's why pilots is so hard. You're not just, it's not just those 55 pages, it's. Four years worth of a series. What, what is this? How's it gonna, you know, what gives it legs?

Lorien: Yeah. Which lately I've been, you know, I'm gonna write a pilot. I'm just gonna write a spec, and then I have to go back and create the whole show. I have to write a whole pitch for it to understand where she starts and what her struggle is in the pilot to represent what the show is. And, um. And I find that part really fun, you know, writing the pitch and developing the whole world.

So then I have confidence in the fact that if it's not in the pilot, I, I know what it is. Right. And that, that I don't have to put it all in the pilot, but I can answer those questions. 

Um, which you don't often get when you're just sending it out for a spec. But like you said, you're building mystery and confidence that like, I know what I'm doing.

Melissa: You're raising the questions that they're gonna ask. Yeah. Yeah. You want them to know, you want them to ask. Where, where did that flaw come from? How did that happen? And what is this mysterious past that's alluded to? You know, you want them to ask those questions, so you're teasing the background. You're teasing the the story.

Lorien: So I've noticed in some of your work, there are characters in between two realms. Right, like I'm a superhero, I'm a me. Oh, not a me. I'm dealing with trauma. I am a forensic, you know, investigator, I'm a serial killer. And you know, in Twilight Bella is a human in love with a vampire and you know, goes through that sort of in between.

What is it about that? This is very much my thematic, this is very much what I write about, stuck between two worlds. What is it that draws you to those kinds of characters? 

Melissa: Very, I'm very drawn to both as a writer and a viewer, and to high concept. Um, I love the, you know, slice of life, intimate, character driven movies as a viewer, you know, but I'm not gonna be the one to write those.

Um, the ones I, I have a, a high concept that's, you know, basically an engine. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Um, so I'm drawn to that. And the, you know, we, as human beings, we're all dichotomies. We, they, we are, every, every human being has the bad, the good, the, you know. Love and the hate and the flaws and the, you know, gifts.

So for me it's really putting the, putting a character or having a, building a character around that dichotomy is, is what makes it interesting and, and what makes it universal to an audience and what gives it legs to, to, you know, carry on for multiple seasons or multiple movies, you know? Um, so that's interesting to me.

Lorien: When you're staffing a room. What are you looking for in scripts? Meeting with writers. What are the green flags and the red flags? 

Melissa: I'm looking for someone who has a different story than mine. You know, I wanna know, uh, you know, I, I want someone to have, bring a different world of experiences.

'cause I can write for my experience, I can't write from, you know. Someone of the other, you know, other people's perspective. I need those to enrich my storytelling, my characters. Um, so I'm looking for a very diverse room blended in terms of gender. Um, I'm looking for, and when, when I'm sitting with a writer, I'm looking, I wanna know what's, what's your pain?

You know, I wanna know what your. What you're bringing emotionally to the table. I, you know, because the, the, the red flag for me is the person who sits down and I ask 'em about their family and their life, and they're like, you know, I had a great life. My parents are still together. I went to school and I graduated, I got a job.

And, you know, it's like, and, and you're, you know, you know, a, a privileged white male or whatever. It's this, this, where's your conflict? What are, you know, what are you bringing me? What story are you gonna bring? Be able to bring me If you have never lived in the world, you've never bought out, traveled. You know, you've never done, not lived yet.

Lorien: I always think those people are lying. Well, that, and then they, they, they aren't actually in touch with their vulnerability, with their writer self, with the ability to like, take risks. Uh, you know, with stories and characters. 

Melissa: Well, they're not self examining. They haven't examined their inner life, you know, it's like, go get some therapy at least so you can, because you are not, your life isn't as perfect as you think it is.

Um, but that's, you know, I, I'm looking for the damage. I wanna know what your damage, I wanna know. It's not so bad that you can't like function. 

Lorien: Not gonna, like, you want functional damage. Yeah. So you're looking for Veronica from Heather's, right? Like, yeah. What is your, your goal, you know, what is the, what is the thing you want? How are you gonna go get it? 

Melissa: What's your experience? And, and it can be like, oh, I had a whole nother career. I was, you know, legal aid in, you know, Columbia or whatever. You know, I wanna know. What you're, that you're bringing new knowledge, new experience, uh, to the table, 

Lorien: new to me. So what I've noticed is women writers have a hard time, harder time articulating plot and want sometimes because it's hard to understand what that feels like somehow, you know, like we've been enculturated to take care of other people.

Or are you just lucky enough to find those writers who are all like, yes, I want this, and I write about women who want this, and go for it. Because that's what you are writing about. You're writing about people who want something strongly enough to like do whatever they can to get it. 

Melissa: That's a good question.

Lorien: I mean, it's that piece of writing an unlikeable woman. Mm-hmm. Right? An anti-hero, a woman, a female character, who is. Going to do the thing, even if an audience might feel threatened by that, because we as women are enculturated to serve other people's feelings and needs before our own, and then we lose touch with what we actually want, and that wanting something feels like selfish or that we need permission to do it.

Melissa: I think the, for me, the answer is in. It's, it is not, not necessarily gender specific, it's a universal experience of the human, the journey to becoming a fully realized human being, you know? And so, I mean, I, I obviously write from a woman's point of view because being one, but I don't set out to, I set out to write a character and.

Whether she be female or male. So, and, and when you're writing a character who's unlikeable a serial killer or a alcoholic investigator, again, what comes back down to is what is their emotional, what is their drive is to become a human being or to redemption or whatever that is. I'm working on a project right now and the character is, uh, learning how to.

Value her own life and experience and setting boundaries and making herself, uh, the priority. You know, that is actually a typical, a typically female thing. So in this particular project, it is someone who is, uh. Has been trained from the beginning, beginning to be, be not, don't be the problem, solve the problem.

Lorien: I really like the way you said that though, that it's a human problem. 

Melissa: Mm-hmm. 

Lorien: That it's not, it's not necessarily gender specific, it's everything we've been talking about, voice, um, mission, uh, sort of with all the conflicts and how to navigate the world, like being an alien. I love that. Um, sort of metaphor of he's an alien and he has to figure out how to human.

Yeah, 

and you're 

put in this alien world, and that's often what life feels like. It's for most of us, I mean for real, right? Like there's always something where I'm like, wait, I'm at a party. Am I supposed to be talking to people or hanging out by myself, or do I just go up to somebody? There's always this internal sort of.

What are the rules of this situation? 

Melissa: Mm-hmm. 

Lorien: Um, that could speak to my  ADHD though, where I'm trying to figure out what's going on.

Melissa: No, we all have that, you know? Yeah. There's, um, there's always something that we're trying to, every human being on the planet is trying to overcome something and it's a lifelong journey.

You know, I've had my, my various flaws, character traits, uh, I've been working on for decades. I still got 'em. I like to think I'm better at dealing with them or, you know, putting 'em in the background. But, and, and everyone's doing that, you know, that's what, who we're, what we're trying to do, you know? 

Lorien: Yes. More, more refined coping strategies. 

Melissa: Right. 

Lorien: Like, I'm gonna refine them and make them, you know, so I can navigate human ing a little bit better. You know, make-

Melissa: -and, and, and healing. 

Lorien: You know, healing. Yes. 

Melissa: And that is, I think that's our, so much, our job as storytellers. Is to offer people a way into those emotions and into, and so they're able to look at, at their own and experience their own and, and hopefully find some kind of, you know, closure sort of, you know, set them on a path toward healing. And that's what storytelling is to me, you know?

Lorien: Yeah. And I think you, that just hit me in the guts because I think that's exactly what I am. Struggling with is that it's the healing, the like connecting with people, sharing my damage, you know, through story and talking to those, you know, talking to those two women and seeing that movie was very much about.

Healing through storytelling, healing, self healing, other, and I think that's the piece that I have been missing and what I need to get back to. And I'm working on a project right now that is very much that it's a medical procedural set in a different genre, and I very much want it to be her healing others.

The neglect, but I think I've been missing what the heartbeat of it is. 

And that it is the struggle, it is healing and how I can offer an insight into that, that will affect an audience and reflect back to me. I, I, yeah. It's that piece. You're like this some kind of story. Genius guru, because I'm just having all these epiphanies talking to you about like.

What my story damage is, so thank you.

Melissa: Oh, my pleasure. You know, I was thinking about, as you're talking, I was thinking about Jessica Jones and my experience on that. And you know, when we walk into the room, our, it was not our intention to get on a soapbox and start talking about, yeah. Sexual assault and violence against women that, you know, what we, our objective was to tell a story and to be true to this character who had experienced sexual assault.

That was it. You know, if you're gonna, if this character's got that in their background, you got you better. Damn. Well be honest about it and, and, and look at it, but our never were our attention to get on the soapbox. And then so when it came out and it started getting all these, you know, think pieces on, on women in, in violence and, and, you know, survivors, I was quite, I was kind of surprised that it was having so much reach in that way.

And I was, it's remains one of my. Just most cherished experiences because that's what we all do. Uh, as story charts. We try to go and, and move the needle just a little bit. Mm-hmm. Um, and it wasn't even my intention to do that. I just wanted to put a cool female character on the screen. That was my objective.

Yeah. 

Lorien: I think that focusing on that sort of mission, that's when things get cloudy and it feels a little like the audience preachy smell that gets preachy. 

Melissa: Yeah. 

Lorien: Yeah. And especially with kids content. Oh God, right? I'm teaching you a lesson. It's like, no, no, no. Just tell a story. Tell the story you wanna hear.

And then because it is a collaborative process with the group, but also with your audience, they're gonna take something out of it collectively. That's the magic of that, that you maybe weren't even like aware. That was in there. I mean, that's one of my, that was one of my favorite parts about theater was that every night was always like a little bit different.

Like that audience experienced that performance in a unique way and took something away from it. Um. And that like, that's, that's that healing piece, right? Yeah. Showing up, telling the story and just being open to what happens. Terrifying, of course. But you know, uh, and I, obviously we can do that in TV and in film as well.

Um, I dunno if it's spiritual or story gods or whatever, but it is something magic. 

Melissa: It is magic. It is magic when you tap into that and you're, uh, you know, there's that, that very sort of. Small magic words. It's not small. It doesn't feel small when you experience it, but when you're writing and something just ends up on the page and you're like, oh my God, I just wrote that.

Lorien: And you're like, where'd this come from? Who is this? Where'd it come from? Exactly. 

Melissa: And, uh, I, I, I, those are those truly are magical moments. 

Lorien: Yes. I want more of them. 

Melissa: Well, yeah, we all do. That's why we do this is why we write. Yes. Because one, we're, we're, we want, we, we need to be heard and seen. But two, you know, it's that.

We, we wouldn't be picking ourselves up off the floor, uh, or have any delusional opposite commitment if we'd never experienced that. We need to experience the magic. Uh, it's like a junkie. You, you just keep going for it. Keep going. 'cause there those moments are far and few between. The kicks in the teeth are much more common.

Lorien: It's like full-time denture, full-time dental, dental insurance for us. Right? 

Melissa: Yeah. 

Lorien: Um, I wanna talk about Twilight for a hot minute. Sure. Uh, so what was it about the books that you were like, that's for me, I'm gonna do that. No one else can do this. 

Melissa: It starts back, be Before Twilight. It starts with Buffy the Vampire 

Lorien: Love Buffy, 

Melissa: one of the great series 

Lorien: Obsessed.

Love it. Again, the conflict, the like two worlds, like it's an unsolvable thing. 

Melissa: Yeah. Um, just tremendous storytelling and I love genre. So they had, Twilight had me at teens and vampires, 

Lorien: you know, 

Melissa: and then I, you know, I, I got into, uh, you know, read the story and Stephanie w writes, Stephanie Meyer, the author of the books, she writes in, um, A way structures a way in a way that's very adaptable, you know?

Um, it, it sort of lends itself to a, uh, she, she's very, she's very knowledgeable about pop culture and very connected to it. And I think that shows in her writing and makes it something that lends itself to something like a, a film or show. Um, so it was the genre aspect. It was, um, the world. One of the, I think Stephanie's greatest talent is.

Her, she builds worlds that are absolutely rock solid. You know, she knows the rules of this world down to the, you know, color of the wolf, number three's fur, and, you know, and so when you're playing in a world that, that, that's, that well, uh, built. It's a wonderful thing as a writer to like, oh, you know, you're, you really know.

And if you don't, if you come across something you don't know, you can, I, I could call her and say, Steph, what is the color of the fur on the third? Right. You know, Wolf on the left. Um, and, uh, it's a, it's, it's a gift. She'd be able to join, jump into someone's sandbox like that if it's a good sandbox. 

Lorien: Do you like adapting the material?

Melissa: That’s primarily my thing. You know, it's so funny 'cause throughout. My most of my career, I, you know, the, the, the brass ring, the, the, the brilliant, the, the, the, the genius is to write an original, you know, uh, I think the Charlie Kaufman's of the world, the, you know, the, these are people who I admire and, and I think that is the hardest thing to do in, in the entire industry.

Is event is invent from thin air. And so that was always my goal and it was not happening for me. I, I was, I was certainly, I'd written a bunch of originals, but it just didn't quite, you know, it, it just didn't get off the ground. And then I was, I did an adaptation I, and I was like, oh, wait a minute, this is connecting.

It's a collaboration with another writer, essentially. Yep. And I was looking at writers like, you know, Steve Zallian for instance. This is someone who is a brilliant writer in his own right, who adapts, they're very, they're two very different heart forms, you know, and I respect both of them. I still would love to create an absolutely original Charlie Kaufman, like.

Lorien: World, but no. A Melissa Rosenberg world. Yes, of course. That's what you want.

Melissa: Right, exactly. And you have, I mean, you have I have, I have for sure. Yeah. Um, and it's about jumping into, it's about collaborating with someone else and taking their world and el doing what you can to elevate it or expand it, or to really bring, bring it, uh, to life on a screen.

Uh, that thrills me. 

Lorien: You have this new MFA program at Bennington, if you could say one thing to the incoming class to get them started in the right direction, what would it be? 

Melissa: Keep writing it. You, you never arrive. You're never gonna arrive, but you're gonna get closer and closer with every draft, with every script, and yeah, just move forward.

Keep writing. Every, every script is, is practicing your craft. You never stop practicing your craft, ever. Um, part of what I love and hate about this job, 

Lorien: Yep, it's never ending. 

Melissa: It's never ending. 

Lorien: So we end every show with, uh, the same tagline, which is, you are not alone. And keep writing, which is exactly what we've been talking about, right?

Community and keep going and tenacity and like pick yourself back up, put your teeth back in your face and go. So, okay, here's another question. What are the elements of a good scene? 

Melissa: Knowing when to get in and out, you know, are you center cutting the scene? Are you going, are you taking characters away out the door?

Um, that's a, something you begin to get a sense of after you've practiced the craft while, but the, the most important thing in the scene is what is it about? What is it trying, how is it moving the characters forward? And if you've written a whole scene and it's just a bunch of dialogue banter back and forth, or it's about.

You know, information you needed to get out there, that's not gonna be a great scene. You've gotta, it, it, it only matters in terms of how does it move the characters forward. You know that story. So it may be like, well, you know what I need to see because I need to find, I need to get this piece of information that this.

The tread on this shoe was, you know, the size nine, and Bob has a size nine shoe. Maybe that's what I need to get out, but I need to do it in a way I need to, to, uh, embody that piece of information. That's not what the scene is about. He is about the character, you know. I don't know what the ceo, the character, uh, was feeling like she's an idiot and then she realizes, oh, I actually know something about shoes.

I know something about Tread. And Bob and I put them together. Maybe I'm not the biggest idiot I thought I was. I, I don't know what's, that's a terrible scene. But, you know, or like she's, 

Lorien: She manipulates to get the answer. She lies to pretend she knows, but she doesn't, which puts her in trouble in the next scene.

Right, right. So then you're learning, oh, she's a liar and Yeah. 

Melissa: Or it's not about shoot offs, about her. Attraction to this other woman or this other man, or, you know, I mean, in advances that relationship forward. You know, he comes up with a tread, she comes up with Bob and they, they, you know, a chocolate peanut butter together.

They're a better, they're a better team, whatever. It's, 

Lorien: I love Bob and the size nine tread shoe. Like, just write that movie right. Where, where Bob, what? What shoes did they have on, right? Yeah, 

Melissa: Exactly. 

Lorien: So at the end of every episode, we ask all of our guests the same three questions, and the first one is, what brings you the most joy when it comes to writing?

Melissa: Having those magical moments of inspiration.

Lorien: What pisses you off about writing?

Melissa: Not having those moments. No. The worst you'll ever feel is like when you don't have it and you know you don't have it, it is a terrible fucking feeling. You know, it's just like all the demons come up, you're a hack, you don't, they're gonna find out you are terrible, whatever it is, you know?

But that's those experiences, like, it's like you're not comfortable in your skin when you can't, when you know you don't have it. When you haven't figured it out and then you figure it out and there's the high. So those are the worst in the, the best of the worst moment, as with everything high comes out of that sort of pressurized.

Lorien: I'm not surprised that those are your answers given what you write about. Right. Characters on opposite side of the same thing. Right. Uh, that high concept of it. If you could have coffee with your younger self, what advice would you give her?

Melissa: I guess I would say relax a little bit. You know, trust that there's gonna be another idea.

I think that's something that particularly emerging writers struggle with, um, and young, young writers in a writer's room is there's this, they don't have the experience of an idea being there all the time. They haven't been doing it long enough. So they'll pitch an idea or write an idea, and if that's doesn't fly.

They're like, but do you understand this is why this is the best idea. It has to be this idea. They keep coming back to it and it's like, let it go. 'cause another idea's gonna be right behind it. Um, so that's what I would say. I'd say, you know, just trust is gonna be another idea. And you'll learn that eventually anyway if you do it long enough.

But hopefully you don't burn all the bridges you that I did coming up and that is about keep, keep writing. You gotta keep doing it. You gotta, sheep keep showing up and listening. Well, in a writer's room, you have to listen to other people so that that might spark something else. And you're not attached to the failure or the disappointment of your idea not being, uh, taken. The the thing is you go, okay, okay, so not that, but what about this? 

Lorien: Yeah. 

Melissa: It's always, what about this?

Lorien: I have one more question then. We'll then that's it, I promise. What is a really proud Hollywood moment you've had? 

Melissa: One of the proudest moments for me was accepting a Peabody for Jessica Jones.

Lorien: Congratulations on that, by the way. 

Melissa: Yeah, it was a, it was a very, very big moment for me. 'cause it, it was the culmination of, um, many, many years and it, and a reflection of the reach. Uh, that, that the storytelling had, uh, that it was important. It said something and it was all in that one, that little Peabody award.

It was like. The acknowledgement of that. That was one of my highlights. 

Lorien: I love that so much. Congratulations. I think that's amazing. And thank you so much for, uh, being here and sharing your time and your thoughts and your wisdom, and for helping me, uh, figure out maybe a solution to my epiphany, my existential crisis. Crisis crisis, uh, you know, healing. So thank you for that.

Melissa: I thank you so much for having me here. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. I really enjoyed it.

Lorien: The Screenwriting Life is produced by Jonathan Hurwitz and edited by Kate Mishkin. Head on over to thescreenwritinglife.com to check out transcripts of our recent episodes, TSL Merchandise and our premium membership workshop, TSL workshops. We have a growing library of prerecorded workshops that covers all sorts of craft related topics from character want to outlining a feature. We also host two live Zooms a month where you can chat to us directly about projects you're working on. You can find us on social media, on Instagram and TikTok, and of course on Facebook we have a private group you can request access to, and it's a really great safe space to talk about all things writing.

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