266 | Emmy-Winner Jeff Hiller (Somebody Somewhere) on the Myth of the “Big Break”
Meg was already a fan of Jeff Hiller from his Emmy-winning performance in SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE, but after listening to his moving and hilarious memoir Actress of a Certain Age, she fell completely in love with his honesty, humor, and heart. She knew she had to have him on the show — and we were deeply honored when he said yes, fresh off his big Emmy win.
In this conversation, Jeff opens up about the myth of the “big break,” finding your authentic voice, navigating rejection with grace, and why it’s never too late to chase your dreams.
Check out Jeff's memoir HERE: goodreads.com/book/show/220902134-actress-of-a-certain-age
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Meg: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve, and today I am giddy to be joined by Jeff Hiller, who is not only the star of the amazing show Somebody, Somewhere for which he just won the Emmy for best supporting actor in a comedy.
He's also a writer and a comedian appearing on TV shows such as American Horror Story, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend and 30 Rock, among others. His film roles include Greta, Morning Glory, Ghost Town, and Set it Up. And he has performed on Broadway, off Broadway, in Shakespeare in the Park, Disney musicals, and regional theater. Jeff regularly performed solo shows at Joe's Pub, at the Public Theatre, and improvises at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theatre, in LA and New York City.
And most recently, he's the author of his bestselling memoir, Actress of a Certain Age, which I listened to on Audible. And I listened to Jeff narrate it, and I loved it so much. It brought me joy every day, every day I got to have a little sunbeam of joy named Jeff Hiller enter my life. And I was so sad when it was over, truly.
I was like, ‘oh my God. What am I gonna do now? It's done!’ That I just called our producers and I was like, ‘we have to have him on the show. I have to meet him.’ So welcome Jeff Hiller!
Jeff: Oh my gosh. Thank you. That was such a good intro. I was like, ‘man, I'm good.’
Meg: Good! All right, we're gonna start by talking about our weeks or what we like to call adventures in screenwriting. I'll go first. Super easy, Jeff. Yours gonna be much more interesting than mine. Okay. So for the past couple of weeks on this show, I've been telling you I've been waiting for notes, and I got them yesterday, people, yesterday I got them.
And you know. I was telling you all I, I hate notes 'cause I'm worried about getting the boot. You know the boot right in your face where you're like, ‘what?’ I didn't get a boot. Well, not that we feel, I don't think so. I have to look at the notes again. But there was no kind of shocking, ‘what?’
They were very respectful. They were excited. And the truth is, even as I was listening to the notes, I was like, ‘yeah, that's probably right. Yeah, we should probably do that. Yeah. Okay. I have enough distance from it now. Yeah, it's probably over complicated and yeah, we could probably lose that character. Could we lose that character? Yeah, we probably could.’
So I felt very open on the call, which is not like me, by the way. But I think it was because they were so open and respectful and good at their notes that I was able to do that. You know, of course there's moments. You're like, ‘okay, we have to reline this whole thing.’ But my manager's advice is ‘okay.’
And I have a writing partner, Joe, and his advice to both of us was, you know, ‘for a week, don't do anything. You've got all the notes, they're gonna stir around in there. Don't go hunting for the answers. You gotta let them come to you.’ And it's so counter, you know, counterintuitive to my overthinking fix-it-all brain, that I'm having trouble even contemplating that. But I'm gonna try, I'm gonna try. It kind of already sort of happened.
I don't know, Jeff, if this ever happens to you, but you get like a note and you're like, ‘oh my God, what does that mean? What would I do if I cut that character? And then you're walking the dog and you're like, ‘oh, well, maybe,’ and it just arrives. This idea arrives. It might suck, but it arrived, so I was happy. So that was my week, which literally was just yesterday.
Jeff, how was your week?
Jeff: My work was good. First of all, can I just say, every time I get notes I'm always like, ‘that's stupid!’ And then like 30 minutes later, I'm like, ‘oh, actually that's good. It's good.’ Almost every time. You just have to push through that, like, moment of you know, like, feeling hurt, ego.
Meg: We like to say there's three stages to getting notes. The first is, fuck you. The second is fuck me. Right? Immediately you're like, I suck. It's awful. And then you get to what's next.
Jeff: So brilliant.
Meg: Right?
Jeff: So great.
Meg: Yeah, just think about that the next time you're getting notes. All right, Jeff, how was your week?
Jeff: My week has been okay. You know, I won this big award.
Meg: Yeah. This small little thing, yes. Where do you keep it? Where do you keep it? Where is it in your house?
Jeff: It's right now, it's just like sitting next to my TV. It's not, it keeps, it kind of makes my house look small. I'm like, ‘I need a bigger house.’ I have a one bedroom apartment. I live in Manhattan, so it's like small, and like, I have a shelf and I was like, ‘oh, I'll put it on the shelf.’ It's too tall, it hits the ceiling, so I don't know where to put it. We're gonna, we're gonna, I don't know. I'm gonna build a bigger house.
Meg: I've heard of people who put it, like, on their toilet, on the back of their toilet, just to stay humble.
Jeff: Well, I put it on the toilet. Yeah I said that in the book. Yeah. And I did put it on the toilet and it's like, my toilet's very small, it can't even hold a bidet. And every time I walked in I was like, oh, it's wiggling. And so I, I was afraid it was gonna fall into my cat's litter box or my toilet.
Meg: But now it's by the TV, so you can watch TV and look at it and nobody will even know you're looking at it and admiring it.
Jeff: Exactly. I'll be like, ;maybe I'll get another one if I do that. Yeah. So my point in saying that is I kind of felt like. Oh boy. My life is about to change immediately, and it hasn't really changed. I still spend most of my time walking my dog and, you know, I am also, I am getting a pitch together, and yesterday I spent most of the day procrastinating from doing the pitch. And you know,
Meg: What's the pitch for? You don't have to give us to us, 'cause of course it's, you don't want, you know, to give it away. But you know, TV, What's the pitch for?
Jeff: It's a TV show that I could be in.
Meg: Oh see, but that is life changing! Because you know, now you've got that Emmy when you go into the pitch, right?
Jeff: Yeah.
Meg: Trust me.
Jeff: Yes. Your lip to a studio executive's ears. Yeah, I hope so. I don't know.
Meg: What's your process of putting the pitch together?
Jeff: Well, I usually get like some sort of a germ, like some sort of nugget, and then I sit on it for a couple weeks, and I just let it walk around my head. And then I tend to, like, when I'm populating the characters, I tend to pick actors I would love to work with. Mostly people I actually know who are friends of mine, that I think either haven't gotten the break that they deserve. Or maybe like, I know who are also famous, but I know they're not crazy, right?
And and I think like, ‘oh, this would be so fun to work with each other. And I've never seen her do this, so maybe she could kind of be a little bit darker on this’ or whatever. And that's how I, that's how I sort of populate which characters. And then my big, hard part, which is the part I'm wrestling now, is like, beating out the pilot and set up some sort of a pattern or whatever.
And the big thing I always have the huge problem with is the B story. I'm always like, ‘I don't know, somebody has lunch?’ I don't know.
Meg: I also always have trouble with the B story. I'm like, ‘why do I care about this B story? Can't we even do the A story? The A story is so amazing. Can't we just do it?’
Jeff: Exactly! That's where the germ was. Let's follow the germ.
Meg: Right? Come on. Well, I can't wait. I think I would love, of course, as a huge fan, I'd love to see you. Especially one that you've created. Can we start with my questions with your memoir?
Jeff: Yes, please.
Meg: You know, any memoir is looking back on your life and perspective and you have a quote in the book. We are in a, ‘we are in our own tumble as an artist, striving for that big break.’
And I really think that's a very common experience to any artist, writer, actor. Can you talk about that? That tumble as we're trying to get our big break and our view of ourselves as it's happening or not happening?
Jeff: Yeah. Well it's so, it's like my big thing is I was always sort of embarrassed to admit it. It feels, like, very audacious to be like, ‘I think I could be an actor or a writer.’ Like, it feels very, like, bold to declare that. And I was, for many years, I didn't ever tell anybody out loud. I just would, I would like, try and go to an audition or something like that, but I would never be like, ‘yeah I'm an actor.’
Like if somebody asked me, I'd be like, ‘I, temp, I temp.’ Which is how I got my money, right?
Meg: Right.
Jeff: But I think. I think it is a noble pursuit and, but it's also like, you know, it's often a little bit frowned upon because there is no guarantee that you'll have the success that let's say you've had or, like, recently that I've had.
And someone asked me, like after the Emmy thing, I, they were like, ‘do you think you still would've done it if you hadn't? Like they were basically, they were like, yes, you got this, but would, do you think you would still be doing it if Somebody, Somewhere had never happened?
And I was like, I'm glad this happened. But yeah, I think I would, I think that, I think it's not, I was never, I mean, obviously I wanted success that's, I was about to say, I was never looking for success. That's a full lie. But I was, what I wanted was not, like, to be on a red carpet. What I wanted was to be on a set to tell stories to be able to do that.
And you gotta do the stupid red carpet so you can get onto the set, or like promote it, so that people watch what happens so you can get on a second set. This is a very long, not especially answer.
But I had sort of a midlife crisis at 40. I talked about it in the book and where I thought like ‘I'm being, this is irresponsible that I'm still doing this, and I'm over 40 years old and I'm in debt. I, you know, I have to take my clothes to the laundromat,’ which by the way, I just went to the laundromat yesterday. Which it’s like, it's not like the Emmy came with a washer dryer or an apartment that could house one.
Yeah. So I guess what was my point in just telling you I didn't have a laundry machine?
Meg: No, you said you had a mental breakdown at 40.
Jeff: Oh, right. And so I was like, ‘I don't, I should, I have friends who have houses with laundry.’ I'm really stuck on the laundry. ‘And I should be doing that. I don't have kids. I,’ at that time, I didn't even have a pet. I was married and my husband was living in New York and I was living in LA and would travel back and forth at great cost, and I just thought, like, ‘I am being so irresponsible. This is something I shouldn't do.’ And I told myself ‘I should quit,’ but then I never did.
I looked up a couple different grad school programs, but I never applied, and that's because I just, I know that this is the path for me. I know that this is the thing that I should be doing, and even if I don't get gold statues or a big mansion, the art is reward enough.
It's better to have laundry though.
Meg: I love that. And I also love in the book how you talk about, you know, everybody's trying to get that big break and how that's kind of an illusion too, right? Like you, you get the Emmy statue and you're still doing your laundry and, or you get your big break to be on Saturday Night Live, which is one of your examples with Sarah Silverman. And then you get fired and you gotta go to the next thing. It is always a climb, isn't it?
Jeff: Yes!
Meg: Like even now you're still climbing, now you're gonna go pitch a show.
Jeff: Yeah!
Meg: And you're still on the climb because that is part of the artistry, I think.
Jeff: Yeah, completely. And I mean, I think it's important to take stock and be grateful, but I also think it's important to continue to have hope even better things to happen. Like, more stories to be told and you know, Inside Out 2, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, like, you don't wanna just be like, I think there's like this myth that you're like, ‘well, now I've made it,’ but, you've never made it because you know, we're not Ross.
We're not like, I just need to make a million cranes or whatever. We're, we gotta, like, there is no finish point. We're artists, we keep art-ing.
Meg: We keep art-ing
Jeff: Sorry, I just art-ed
Meg: So in terms of the art-ing. All right, so you're gonna write your memoir, what I love, is your voice in the memoir. Now listen, I don't mean your literal voice, which was in my head. I mean the writing voice. And we get a, and I feel like your voice is very clear in the different roles you play, even from the, you always make the joke of for a long time you were the ‘upset customer service guy.’
But there is an art to your voice in your presence that I also hear in the memoir. People are always asking us about ‘what does that mean, voice? How do I find my voice?’ Did you ever think about that? Or is it something that has organically come over time?
Jeff: That's such a great question. You know, a friend of mine was writing a pitch for a book. She's like a very talented comic, and she was writing a pitch or a, you know, a book proposal and she asked me to read it and I was like, ‘you are one of the funniest people I know, and this is dry ass shit, what the hell is this?’
And it, I think for her, she was like, ‘I need to write like a book. You know what I mean?’ And I was like, ‘no, you need to write like you, you need to write like what you think is funny.’ And I think for me, the hard part about finding my voice and sharing my voice was getting to the place where I was confident enough to believe that anyone wanted to hear that voice.
And so I think the way to find your voice is to be authentic, to not write for someone, but to write for you. And I think a lot of times, like, especially in Hollywood, we're always like, ‘they're looking for a multi-camera sitcom about a dog that talks,’ you know? And you're like, I'm gonna write that!
And like, if you don't have any juice to write something about a dog who talks, it's gonna be a lame script. But if you have like a weird, unique take on whatever, like a lamp that shoots lasers. That's gonna be amazing, even though it sounds completely unsellable.
Meg: Because it's so how you approach it, you see your insight. My husband likes to say, what's the insight? You know, and the voice can start to help us find the insight. Of course, the insight's based on what story you're telling, but also the voice helps us with that as well.
And so much of your, of a memoir, anybody's memoir is, you know, going back to the past and like you said, having the confidence and that's so apparent in the book and the steps you took and the complex gray zones of that, right? Like, don't we all wish it was like a fairytale where it's like, ‘well, there was an ogre under the bridge and he kept me from my voice! He stole my voice and he put it in the box!’
Jeff: ‘But I got a slingshot, so now I'm fine!’
Meg: So now I'm fine! Like, 'cause then you know what to do. Go get a slingshot. Know that riddle. Get the box. Easy. That, unfortunately, is not our lives, especially, once we've lived in the past where we're like, and I love your mom in the book because she's awesome. And yet she's also a mom and she's a human being and she didn't know that you were being bullied at school or when she did, she only had the tools that she had, that, those gray zones, right?
She’s this amazing person. And yet she's a woman of her time and of the time and the culture and the bullying. And I really just so appreciated how honest you were in the book. I think that's part of your voice and part of what I felt, I found joy in it, which I know sounds maybe counterintuitive, but–
Jeff: –Yeah–
Meg: –Your hope and love and your voice and your humor brought me joy. But also it was profound. There was, it was not just happy, it was joy. There was a profoundness to it. And one thing you talked about was you know, church, and religion being part of your life or part of the things that were challenging.
One of our producers, Jeff, had a great question that I also thought was really curious. Do you ever worry about talking about that stuff in terms of Hollywood, in terms of letting too much out or you know, you know, do you tell people that you were raised religion in Hollywood?
I'm, I can say I'm a recovering Catholic, and it's like, ‘ha ha ha.’ Have you, when you were writing the book, were there any areas of your life that you were, that you hesitated, or were you just all in?
Jeff: Well, I'm having some retroactive hesitation at this moment. Oh God, what did I say? Yeah, there were a couple things. Yeah, but then I just kind of felt like, I mean, the great thing about being on Somebody, Somewhere was their big mandate for everything was ‘be authentic. We want truth.’ And I really was moved by that.
And I came up through the improv world, and they're constantly talking about truth in comedy. Truth in comedy, you don't ever want to be silly and goofy. You wanna be like, ‘oh, I could see how someone's point of view might be that twisted’ and then heighten that or whatever. And so. I do really respect the idea of truth and authenticity, and so I just really wanted, I sometimes, also, I read a lot of memoir and–
Meg: –That's right–
Jeff: –When somebody's like putting on the sheen, you're like, ‘I can tell you're putting on the sheen. You know, this is not, nobody's life is like this.’ So I really didn't want that. So I just thought, like, the one thing I was maybe a little bit like, ‘oh, should I say this?’ Is like I have an autoimmune thing where I don't have any eyebrows and my hair fell out and I have like some scars on my body and stuff.
And I was like, ‘should I say that?’ Then I was like, people already looking at me and being like, ‘your hair looks weird.’ So might as well just give them the reason why and then be like ‘it's a disease!’ But you know, I'm fully insurable.
Meg: Fully insurable. You're so honest. Even right at this top, again, this book is full of joy. People, you're literally like, okay, we're gonna talk about three buttholes in this book and you should wait for them. You're just like, oh my God!
Jeff: That's not honest. That's the carrot to keep you walking.
Meg: So funny. I loved it so much. I'm gonna be careful here because I'm just gonna get giddy and start talking about all the things that made me delighted in this book. Okay.
Not delightful, and yet something that we all experience. You talk about it through different parts of your life as you're doing the climb: rejection, self-doubt, that part of the artistic life. I love how you approached it with humor, but anything that you would like to talk about in terms of rejection and self-doubt for our listeners who are maybe emerging writers and really just start hitting it for the first time, they're really hitting that self-doubt and rejection for the first time?
Jeff: Well, for me. I'm such a compare-despair person like hardcore. I'm like, wait a minute, like even the fact that I turned 40, I was like, ‘I don't know any people who got their first TV show after 40!’ Now I have researched it since, and lots of people have but I, and even when I would find someone who would like, like Estelle Getty, but I was like, ‘yeah, but she was in Torch Song Trilogy on Broadway!’
Even now, I'm like you know, ‘okay, I got an Emmy. Who else got an Emmy? And how can I compare it? Like, what did they do with it?’ It's like, it doesn't, it's not, it's art, it's not math. It's not something that you can just say like, oh, it's the same.
And I really felt that way in my twenties and thirties when I would, especially at the UCB where people were getting put on The Office and put on SNL and put on you know, you know, writing shows and creating their own shows. And I started to really feel like I, I was never like jealous. I wasn't like, they're bad.
It's not, I didn't feel like they shouldn't be having this success. I just felt like, ‘oh no, I've missed my window.’ Because they already had their success at whatever. And I think that is such a complete and total non-helpful, actually quite harmful thing to do.
And by the way, I can tell you that all I want, and it's not going to change your mind because it's just somewhere weird in our heart.
Meg: But you catch it.
Jeff: Our hard wiring.
Meg: But you can catch it. You can catch it. If it's in your wiring, you can catch it. ‘Oh, I'm comparing.’
Jeff: Right.
Meg: That might be all you have to do. Maybe you can't stop it.. But I feel like the more we catch it, the more we see, ‘oh, I'm comparing why? Oh, because this happened in my life.’
Jeff: Yeah.
Meg: ‘Maybe that's what I need to deal with.’ Instead of the comparing, like eventually you start to see the pattern. I hope I know what I'm talking about.
Jeff: I think you're right. Well, that too. That's another, well, and yeah you can just tell yourself that. I think that is really helpful. I also think there's this weird dichotomy where you have to be kind of full of yourself to say, ‘I could do this.’ But then also, then you see somebody else's really great script or incredible performance and you think, ‘oh, I can never be this good.’
And I do remember Jennifer Coolidge sort of jokingly said, ‘you should see bad art. It'll make you feel better about yourself.’ And I think that's kind of true. I think that's kind of true.
Meg: It's true. That is true. Sometimes reading bad scripts is good because you're like, ‘okay.’ I, when I used to work at an agency as an assistant, and the new assistants would come in and they'd be like, ‘but this script is bad!’ And I'm like, ‘I know.’ And they're like, ‘but this person has an agent and this person got to Jodie Foster, like, how?’ And I'm like, ‘well, that's what,’ and they're like, ‘I can do this!’
Jeff: Exactly. That's a confidence boost right there, reading a real dookie of a script.
Meg: Okay, so writer's block, you're writing this memoir or you're writing your pitch right now. How do you approach writers block?
Jeff: Well, I just have come to embrace that I'm a real., I'm a real deadline baby. And like, I will push it a little too far, and then the deadline, I have a, thank God I have a deadline with my manager this Saturday and I have to send him the pages. So I know on Friday night I will be, I'll be typing and polishing, you know.
But I also, what I also really do that helps me quite a bit is I'll go for a walk, I say around my block, but it's usually a little further, and I talk into my phone and then I come back home and I transcribe it.
Meg: You and Sam Shepard. That's how Sam Shepherd wrote all of his plays.
Jeff: Sam Shepard did that?
Meg: Yes. He would get in his pickup truck with his dog and he'd drive from his home to LA and he'd talk into a recorder at that time. And that's how he wrote all of his plays. So you were in good company.
Jeff: Yeah. No. Me and Sam, we are the same. Same. I'm gonna call Jessica Lange, or whatever.
Meg: Okay. Somebody, Somewhere. I love this show so much.
Jeff: Thank you.
Meg: You know, so much of the magic of that show, and there's a lot of magic, but a wonderful piece of that is the influence that you and Bridget have in creating your characters. You can feel the authenticity of your characters. And I know you guys also did improv on the set, and you really also explored your characters together with each other and the writers.
For the writers listening, or the directors, I guess either side, when you're, how do we, on the page, help find that authenticity that you were finding probably from the page, but also in your acting, you know? Is there anything, or is there a way to help us with that collaborative process with the actor? You know, what's your view of the writer in that process, I guess is a simpler way to say it.
Jeff: Right. Well, the writers of the show, well, there were a few, the creators of the show are Hannah Bos and Paul Thureen. They're playwrights originally. And I think what's really interesting about this show too, is this is definitely not a show.
You're right. Like this pitch is not like, ‘oh baby, let's sell it and make a million bucks.’ You know, it's. It's, like, very niche, I can't believe it happened. It only happened because Bridget had a deal with HBO, and several writers pitched things to her and Paul and Hannah pitched something that was really important to them, the Midwest stuff.
And they had seen Bridget's Cabaret, which is like, body and crazy and sexy and, like, dangerous. And instead of just going for the first thought of like, ‘yeah, let's have you, you know, share your boobs and be wild’ or whatever they made this very tender show and they sort of, coincidentally they put in that Bridget's character's sister had died, and Bridget actually, her sister had died.
They also had a space for Murray Hill to be in the show, and Bridget is really good friends with Murray Hill. And so she was like, ‘oh my God I would love to work with Murray.’ And so they, they wrote what was passionate to them. You know, they wrote about the lamp with the lasers.
And, I think the other thing that they did that really made it authentic is, well, first of all, they were always rewriting, Bridget was always rewriting, you know. They had a room and then there was just no budget to bring writers out. So it was just the showrunners and Bridget and then the producer, Carolyn Strauss, and they would rewrite almost every night to make it sound right.
And then, if I went on set, and I said it a little bit different word wise, but it still got the same point across, they were fine with it. They wanted that. They wanted it. 'Cause I sometimes, the words, your ear is different from my ear and so I don't know how to make exactly those words sound. No, between you and me, I'm pretty good at it. But that's one thing I really do know how to do, I can make really clunky dialogue actually sound okay. Put me on a medical show. I'd do well.
Anyway, they but they were not afraid to, they were okay with us, you know, moving around and sometimes they'd be like, ‘that's not where we're, that's not where we're going. Can you not do it that way? Can you get one is written?’ And I obviously happily do that. But I think that a lot of that naturalism came from the fact that Bridget and I could get the same beats across but say it in our own words.
Now the other thing is that our show was not about, you know, set up punchline, you know, set up punchline. So we didn't have to follow a rhythm, in a way that maybe a traditional comedy might really. Sometimes we need to do, sometimes you have to do that.
Meg: But, and you also did improv on the set too, right?
Jeff: Right.
Meg: Even in the book you talk about that lines you added or I think in the, during the tornado with the dog. Right? Am I right? Am I remembering correctly?
Jeff: That one was on script, but I said ‘this is church’ at the end of season one.
Meg: Yes.
Jeff: That's the one I brag about in the book.
Meg: As you should. I love that line. It's amazing.
Jeff: And you, they would, a lot of times they would allow us to, it's not like the idea of improv in the way that we normally think of improv, where it's like making it super outrageous. It was always improvising to make it seem more authentic and more realistic.
And then also, you know, we would get to the end of the script and they wouldn't call cut right away. So we would be able to continue, and they would often find a really nice button for a scene or a really nice moment that fit there because, you know, whatever. There was something weird on the table, that set deck put there that the writer didn't know would be there and we can comment on it, and that's what you would do in life. And so it felt more natural.
Meg: Yeah. I love that. You know, you know, Joel is such a heartfelt role, and there's so much range there. When you're reading all the scripts that are pouring in because you just won an Emmy.
What for you, when you're looking to play a character, what feels compelling to you? Or another way to ask this, I guess is the word, authentic. We all think we know what that means, but really what does that mean to you in terms of it feels authentic and real? Is there anything that you're reading a character and you're thinking, ‘I can play him, there's enough there for me to dig into.’
Jeff: Meg, this is really, you're gonna, you're gonna hear some hardcore truth, which is–
Meg: –that's why you're here–
Jeff: –there's been no scripts pouring in. There's, oh, I got, I did get one offer. They're a very small show that can only pay scale, whatever.
Meg: They just haven't caught up yet.
Jeff: Yeah. But here's the thing is that, like, the only time I would say I won't play a role is if it was like, offensive. And I have to tell you, there was a time when even then I probably would've played, but like–
Meg: –Okay, but to be excited about it. Let's say you're like, ‘I have to play this.’ Do you find, is there something that you love, like, characters who are contradictory? Do you love characters who, where they're hard on their sleeve, or is there anything that you feel, ‘oh, I can, I could play that.’ Or, because I'm thinking about writers.
Jeff: Right, right.
Meg: Sometimes we write things that we don't even realize are one note until the poor actor has to come along and be like, ;oh my God. It's one thing I'm doing it over and over.’
Jeff: Yeah. And I've been guilty of that as a writer too. Yeah, for sure. I think, well, I'm often looking for something that's a little bit different than anything I've ever played before. That's, that usually excites me.
And, I do love a character that has a contradiction. I love writing that has jokes, like, that are funny that I could, that like, when I'm like, ‘oh, I could make that a joke,’ it's fine. That's, like, exciting when I'm like, ‘I get that, I know exactly how to deliver that.’ I love that.
When it's, like, interesting language that you're like, ‘oh, this would feel, this would be fun in my mouth.’ I think that's really exciting. And then I think, because I mean, truly, since 2022, I've maybe had a little bit of power…maybe…really since 2020, really since about two weeks ago. And I think before that it was always, ‘what can I bring to this to make it interesting to me,’ you know what I mean?
Meg: I love that. Okay. So how would you start that process of what can I bring to this?
Jeff: So, you know, if this is just generic-waiter, how can I specify it? How can I make this person interesting? And that's about reading. I mean, I say the script a lot of times I just got the scene. But you would read it and you would say like, ‘oh, I, I get the whole point of this. I get what my piece is in this scene, and my piece is to annoy the main character. So how can I make my annoyances really specific,’ you know?
And so maybe it's like, I'm like annoyed with them for coming into my restaurant, you know, like ‘ugh what? Yes.’ Or like, like constantly just like looking at my phone, right and being like ‘mmh-hmm,’ you know? I've got, I have so many ways I can be an annoying person 'cause I'm often hired to be the person who's annoying.
But like, if it's just the guy who's like, I played a lot of computer geniuses, you know, where they say enhance and you enhance. And like, I did one on the television show Psych where I was like, ‘I just wanna be like a real, like, pitiful sort of sad person.’ And so I do that 'cause the, that's, I do that 'cause the ‘computer's my only friend’ and this is how I've, that's how I convey that. But then on Law & Order: Criminal Intent, it's also like the tone of the show. You have to–
Meg: –yeah–
Jeff: –match it too, also, and I knew like, I was just a guy who like, ‘I really wanted to help you guys, but I need your brilliance to help me understand it.’ So I would always be like, ‘I don't know. Yeah, Corrine, I don't know. You got it. Yes. You nailed it.’ That kind of thing.
Meg: The fan, the admirer. Yeah, I love it so much. You're, it's so great as a writer to hear this. My brain is just, like, popping.
Jeff: Oh, cool.
Meg: Okay. Improv you've been doing and teaching improv for 20 years. First, do you recommend that writers try it just to learn something? Or, maybe another way to ask it is, do you have any lessons from improv that you've brought to your work as a writer or an actor? Actor makes more sense to me in terms of being in the moment, but as a writer, do you even feel the improv helping?
Jeff: I think the improv helps me with dialogue a lot. I think I'm, I think that's, I think what's, see what's funny is like my weaknesses as a writer is plot, and my strength is dialogue. You know, jokes, funny things like that. Whereas like, 'cause in improv you're not focused on plot, it's a two minute scene, you know?
Meg: Right, right.
Jeff: And it doesn't matter if the boss fires you. Like the fun of it is, you know, and you actually have to really learn to, like, when writers do take improv, the first lesson is always like, ‘it doesn't matter, this isn't, we're not, save it for your screenplay. This is not, that's not what improv is about.’
But I do think that. And consequently, like sometimes I'm like, ‘I don't think you need to take an improv class.’ If that seems interesting to you, do it. But I don't think, like, everybody needs to take an improv class. 'Cause sometimes it actually gets people in their head and makes them kind of stressed.
Meg: Maybe if they were having trouble with dialogue though, if they were struggling to make it feel real and authentic.
Jeff: Yes.
Meg: A dialogue class, impact class.
Jeff: Yes. And like I, I feel like I'm pretty good at like, not making the exposition feel clunky and expositional, you know, or what was that, well, I won't name it. But I was watching something recently where I was like, ‘oh my God, this exposition.’ It was like, ‘well, I'm your father and you're my daughter.’ I was like, what is happening?
I think I'm really good at that, and I think it brought, really helped me with that. And I also think the main thing that improv is like, it doesn't have to be perfect.
Meg: I love that.
Jeff: Like, we can edit it later. And so, so many times I didn't write a script 'cause I was like, ‘I haven't quite figured it out.’ And it's like, write it, and you might figure it out. Or it might be three fourths of the way there and then you get notes and you say, ‘fuck you.’ Then you say, ‘fuck me,’ and then you change it.
Meg: I love that about not being perfect. That's the exact reason to take it, because it's just moving. Like there's nothing to be perfect at, like you just have to keep going.
Jeff: Yeah.
Meg: Which is so much of writing for me, it's just like, ;well, I don't know. I guess I'm just gonna try some shit and open a document.’ Like I don't have any idea.
Jeff: And have you ever once, like, done one of those things where you're just like, add in a character and that's the perfect character. I can't, like, you like that?
Meg: Like where did you come from?
Jeff: I know that's when you're like, that's when you're all, like, in that weird like Elizabeth Gilbert Big Magic face or whatever. And I know, but you know.
Meg: No, I love it. I love it so much. And then you're like, now I've got this amazing character, and they're like, cut it. And you're like, ‘what? He arrived! You don't understand!;
Jeff: ‘He hooked, cracked open X-ray!’ And then they're like, ‘yeah, but you don't need him now. You don't need him anymore.’
Meg: He was just a messenger and now he will die for you.
Jeff: Look at them. I also wanna be sad for that character, but you're right.
Meg: Look, we're improving right now. We just created a whole person. So I also love what you say about in, sorry, improv in the book, which is, ‘it's not about saying the most outrageous wild thing,’ right? It's more like, it's more trying to find the words, so that they feel good in your mouth, in the sense they feel authentic.
We're back to that word, right? You know, for writers who are struggling with getting to their, what we call their lava, or that more authentic self, 'cause you keep going to maybe to archetypes and that kind of black and white easy stuff. Improv will push you, right? The right kind of improv will, does all improv do that, or just certain kinds?
Jeff: Great question. I mean, I did long form improv, which is short form improv is more, like, games. And I think that's really good about getting your mind to, to like get blocks down and move through things.
Meg: Right.
Jeff: And long form is maybe more about, like, you know, supremely being present and always paying attention and listening to every single detail. And it always matters, that sort of thing. So maybe long form is better, in that sense.
Meg: Yeah, no, but either way, I mean, that's just great for people to think about what they wanna do. I think that all writers definitely should take an acting class 'cause they need to understand what actors are doing with their work and how they, like you said, what they have to bring to it.
Jeff: And that is one thing that acting helps me with, like when I'm writing a script. Obviously not when I'm writing book, but when I was writing, like when I read it, I've written, you know, I have, I've only gotten one pilot actually purchased, but I've written…fifteen?
Meg: Right, a lot.
Jeff: Yeah, exactly. And I, one of the things that I do for the final pass, is I read through it as each character, if I was the actor being hired to play that character, and a hundred percent of the time I've been like, ‘wow, this character doesn't have a lot to do.’ There's always one character where I'm like, wow, this one was really underwritten.
And I will say disgustingly, it's often, like, a female character, or a character of color or you know, it's like, it's the character who isn't like me, you know? Which in my script is like a straight dude, you know? It's like the straight dude is always just like, ‘yeah, Uhhuh.’ I write for straight men in the way that straight men write for women, which is just like the boyfriend, you know?
And so I always go through each script and try to add in at least a fun joke or some new character angle that gives them something to play with other than just, you know, like ‘I'm the bartender,’ you know?
Meg: Right.
Jeff: Which is not a character.
Meg: And that goes back to that specificity, because you say in your book, you know, the more specific thing is the more relatable in the world it is.
Jeff: Ironically, yeah.
Meg: And I think that. Yeah. A lot of emerging writers don't understand this and they stay very broad. Could you just quickly tell us a little bit when you say that the more specific it is, the more universal it is in a sense?
Jeff: Yeah. So like, I mean we, we say this a lot in improv too. But I mean, for instance, our show Somebody, Somewhere, which I didn't write, but the fact that it's about a woman who's in her late forties in Kansas, I think most of us would be like, ‘well that means like only you know, 50-year-old women in Kansas are gonna like this.’ And it's a hundred percent not true. It's like, I mean, are like teenage boys watching it? No, but does everything have to be for teenage boys?
Meg: Yes, does everything have to be for teenage boys and do they have all the money? Like what is this? No, they don't have any money. Those teenage boys. So why does everything have to be for them?
Jeff: Exactly!
Meg: They get all these, and you know who has money, 50-year-old women, that's who has money.
Jeff: Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Exactly. Especially the ones who just have a cat, they got all sorts of disposable income. Yeah. And I feel like, even my book, which is about like being an actor, so many people have come up to me and been like, ‘oh, I loved your book, it touched me so much because,’ and I'm always like, oh, they must be, you know, an unemployed actor. And then it'll be like, ‘I grew up in the church,’ or ‘because I was bullied’ or ‘because I also have frontal fibrosing alopecia!’ And you're like, wow, that was really, that was only a couple times.
But you know, so many people find the different things that they relate to. Or it's just like, you know, I'm not an actor, but I had hopes and I kind of have let them die and you, you made it seem like I'm allowed to still have hopes even though I committed the cardinal sin of turning 50, or whatever.
Meg: I love that so much. Yes, all those daring things we were talking about, you were so honest about is what is reaching people and having them come in and feel seen, right? I just love that so much. So we always end with asking the same three questions, so I do have to get to the last three questions.
But I wanted to ask, if we were all coming into your improv class and it was the very first day, what would be the first exercise that we would do? Or how would you approach it? What's the first thing in an improv class, if we're all newbies?
Jeff: Well, the first thing that I do, this is not what every teacher does, but what I always do is I make everyone learn everyone else's name, and then every time somebody goes up for a scene, I say, who's this? Who's this? Because, one of the biggest things you need to do in improv is remember details.
And everyone always says like, ‘oh, I'm just really bad with names.’ And it's like, recognize someone's humanity. All you have to do, there's 16 of us. That's all you have to remember, is 16 names. Make the commitment to do it. And so let's do it.
And then the other thing I would do is be like, you don't have to be funny. Just be truthful ,and that will be funny. And that, I know that I feel like I'm really harping on that. But that is what the first thing, and that's every improv teacher says that, because, when you try to be funny, it always, it's always like, ‘oh, I'm so embarrassed for them. Oh no. Oh, they tried that joke and it was not funny. Oh, you tried a pun. Oh, no, a pun.’
Whereas if you accidentally say a pun, oh my God, it's so fun. Because what's that old saying? ‘Like, you didn't ask for the butter, you asked for the laugh.’ You know, ‘I always get the joke when I ask for the butter, but I didn't get it last night,’ because you asked for the laugh instead of the butter.
And I think that, I think that Alfred Want maybe said it, it's more of an acting thing than a writing thing. But a lot of times when you try to be funny, it's real embarrassing.
Meg: It is. I've been there. It's very embarrassing. That's why I have some social anxiety. I'm really good with like three people around a table talking about our lives. They put me in a giant party and I have to do small talk, and I'm like, ‘I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to.’
Jeff: I couldn't say it better. I love a party where we're, like, we're sitting on a couch and we're conversations and listening. When I'm gonna have to be like, ‘what? Oh, thank you, Uhhuh.’ I hit, no, I don't like that at all. ‘What do you do at HBO? Oh, fun marketing.’
Meg: It's so true. And you're like, I have to be witty. And then there are people around me who are, like, really witty and they're able to talk about the lady's shoes. And I'm just like, ‘how do you do that? ‘It's like, my husband can do this. It's like a superpower!
Jeff: I know.
Meg: It’s a superpower. I totally–
Jeff: –I had a friend who was like, do you like crowds? And I was like, ‘no, who likes crowds?’ And she was like ‘me!’ And I was like, ‘oh. Oh, we're fundamentally different.’
Meg: See, that's so fun. 'Cause in my brain masters going, oh, there's two characters. One who's like ‘crowds, what?’ Another one who's like this superhero who can just walk in and just light up a room with banter.
Jeff: Exactly.
Meg: Banter. I can write banter. I can't do banter.
Jeff: Same. Same.
Meg: All right. I have so loved this. I'm gonna wrap up with our last three questions that we ask every guest. The first one is, what brings you the most joy about your work?
Jeff: I like the reaction, the audience reaction. And that can be just like people on set or a friend who read your script or I, like, for me it's not about writing it and keeping it on my computer, it's about sharing it. So I guess the sharing it.
Meg: I love that. And yet, it's interesting because it's not, but you're not sharing it by asking for the laugh, by asking for the butter.
Jeff: Right.
Meg: And yet you like the reaction. What pisses you off about your work?
Jeff: Oh, you know, the game. The Hollywood game. And you know, ‘now you're hot, now you're not.’ All that business is like, let's just, let's just tell stories.
Meg: Let's just tell stories. I know. If you could have a coffee with your younger self, what advice would you give?
Jeff: I, well, again I feel like I probably wouldn't take it. You really kind of have to learn a lot of things. But I would just think, I think I would just say like, ‘you're actually really talented, so, just know that, believe that.’ And my younger self wouldn't believe it.
Meg: I love that so much. What a beautiful thing to come back and tell your younger self. That's very inspiring. I love that. Thank you so much.
Jeff: Thank you. That was so fun! Is that it?
Meg: That's it!
Jeff: Amazing. Awesome. That was so easy and so pleasurable. Thank you so much. It was so great to meet you all.
Meg: Thanks so much to Jeff for joining us today. For more support, head to our Facebook group or check out our TSL workshops, which is linked in the description below. And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.
