263 | Feature Film Story Engine Checklist: 8 Elements to Turn a Situation Into a Movie (REBROADCAST)

STORY ENGINE.

Two words we so often dread, but let's be honest: the engine of your story is what POWERS your movie. It's make, or break. And today, we break down eight elements to test whether or not you are on your way to a feature film story engine that will take you from fade in, to fade out!

(A rebroadcast of Episode 179)

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Jeff: Hey TSL fam, producer Jeff here. And today we're actually rebroadcasting one of our most popular episodes ever, all about feature film engines, or the fundamental mechanics of what makes a movie really work. We thought it was the perfect time to revisit this conversation because next week we're actually joined by none other than Akiva Goldsman, who's a true master of this craft.

He's the Academy Award-winning writer of A Beautiful Mind, The DaVinci Code, and so many more. At the top of the show, you'll hear a quick plug for our premium community, and at the time we recorded this, we lived on Patreon, though we've since transitioned to an even better platform called Circle, it's linked in the description below if you're interested, and we'd love to meet you over there if you haven't joined yet.

And without further ado, let's get into the show.

Meg: Hey everyone. Welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve.

Lorien: And I'm Lorien McKenna. And before we get started with today's show, we wanna talk about the live q and as and story workshops we do twice a month with our audience on a website called Patreon.

So when we do the story workshops, we listen to your story ideas and we workshop them with you. It's really inspiring to get to hear all of your amazing ideas and getting to correct. Connect. Connect, correct, not correct, connect not correct. 

Meg: We’re never correcting. 

Lorien: We are working with you. We are not in the business of telling you what to do, but maybe exploring ideas of how to do something a little differently. Getting to do that is one of my favorite things. Meg, I think it's one of yours too. 

Meg: Yeah, because we love the Facebook page and getting to talk to you guys there, but getting to actually listen to your stories and help you and give you feedback and ask you good questions and, I also think people learn a lot from listening to other people. 

Lorien: Totally. 

Meg: And the questions we ask them, I know that even when we're doing it, I sometimes will be like, ‘oh yeah, no, I need to ask myself that question.’

Lorien: Same. I mean, it's like. On one of them, you were like, I'm writing a catch a killer show. And I was like, ‘oh, that's what my show is.’ 

Meg: Exactly. 

Lorien: It’s a catch a killer show, even though it's not a murder mystery. It is like, and I was like, oh, okay. I need to look into that genre. So like, beautiful.

Meg: And we can also then like find out later what's going on. ‘Did it help? Did you hit a wall?’ You know, so it's just a great way for us to give back to you guys more directly. So we wanted to let you know about it. And you can find it on, right now, you can find it on the Patreon site under The Screenwriting Life, right, Jeff?

Jeff: Yep, that's right. I will link it in the description below. That's patreon.com/thescreenwritinglife. I wanna meet you guys. Come sign up.

Meg: And it's funny how well, like three people will pitch and somehow it all the because it's just random, relatively, and it's how they all kind of line up. It's weird, the weird the way it happens. So come on over. 

Lorien: But one of the things that always lines up is that whether we're listening to a TV show or a feature story engine always seems to be the thing that we end up talking about in some way. And, you know, I mostly write in TV, but I do have a feature here and there, and story engine is always the thing that comes up. 

It's always like, ‘what's the engine of the show?’ And then something that, a new idea that I hadn't really thought about until I started working with Meg is what's the engine of a feature?

Meg: That's right. What is the engine of a feature, which is gonna be our topic today. But before we get into it too deeply, let's make sure we don't skip our weeks or what we call adventures in screenwriting. Lorien, how was your week? 

Lorien: My week was really good. I started working with a new rep. So one of my priorities this week has been defining that relationship and, you know, setting expectations. How we like to work together, and then, you know, establishing how we're gonna work together moving forward. You know, we started with like the business things. Let's talk about what they're gonna commission, what's carved out, what's not, sort of all that stuff right up front, which I love. 

And then making it clear like how we like to communicate, what are, what I'm focused on, how they think they can help me in those directions. How open I am to, you know, new things coming at me. That kind of stuff. 

Like I was very clear like, I don't want generals right now. I wanna focus on the projects I have and taking them out and getting them set up. But that might shift later. But just sort of where I am right now, I have a very clear focus. 

I also learned something very important. What I've always defined of myself as awkward in the way I communicate, my new manager defined as direct. And I was like, ‘oh, I like that a lot more because I am very direct.’ I'll be like, ‘so what's the thing with this?’ 

And because I don't like wasting my time trying to guess what somebody means or spinning about what something meant, I really like to know. So having a relationship with somebody that I trust enough to be like, okay, this is the thing that I wanna talk about. 

So I'm direct because I don't like ambiguity. And I that thing right there, just in our first conversation, once we started to engage, I was like, ‘okay, this is gonna work out.’ 

Meg: Yeah, this is a good person for you. That's a good, that's a good indicator that they understand you and they appreciate what you are. And they see it as a plus. 

Like I remember when I was getting my agent, that's how I picked my agent, is that every other agent meeting I went into, they said, ‘ oh your age and you were a producer,’ and those seem to be bad things. And he was like, ‘I think it's amazing that you've been in the business all this time. That you have such deep, you know, you understand. I can send you into any meeting. I love that, that you're a woman writer.’ I love everything that, everything else was kind of a ding he saw as the plus in how he was gonna sell me. So I thought, I think that's so awesome.

Lorien: Yeah. So I'm really excited and I am trying not to overwhelm them with like, here's this and this. It's like, I'm really trying to stay focused and prioritized because I know they're busy and they have other clients as well, you know, but that's that first blush of ‘we were just started working together.’ Like, you know, it's like you just start dating, you know- 

Meg: -that’s super smart. Super smart. 'Cause if you overwhelm them, they're gonna be like, ‘oh no. Oh no.’ 

Lorien: Yeah. So I have to do what I said I was gonna do, which is ‘these are my priorities, this is what we're focused on.’ And but it's, I think it's gonna be a good partnership and I feel safe in it, so that's good. Yeah. 

Meg: Did they ask you what kind of career you want?

Lorien: Yes. And I told them what my priorities were. 

Meg: Yes. Because if they don't ask you that question, what do you want? And they just start telling you what they want and what they need. It's a flag.

Lorien: No, it was always very much, from the very beginning, when we were, like, just chatting and sort of feeling each other out. It was very much like, what do you want? What are your priorities? How do you like to work? That kind of thing. 

And then I of course ask them the same questions, because I am interested. I wanna make sure that they're not twisting themselves to accommodate me, that's not natural for them. So, yeah.

And I got to say like, these are my priorities. Instead of having someone tell me what my career is supposed to be.

Meg: There you go. There you go. 

Lorien: Which I know has, can, happen to people. And it's sort of, I think, a problem with the expectations of getting a rep. ‘Oh, they're gonna, they're gonna design my career for me. They’re gonna tell me what I need to do and how I need to navigate it.’ You don't want that, it really has to come from you. Even if you're emerging, you have to know. 

Meg: Yeah. What you love, what you are passionate about, what you, the kind of rooms you wanna be in. What would be the dream? Where do you wanna be in 5 years? Where do you wanna be in 10 years? 

And of course it'll change and they'll have lots of insights and they'll say, ‘well, in order to do that, or this is what's tough about that,’ but that's, they should be applying themselves and their skillset to your road, your dream, your wants. And if you don't know, then you gotta figure it out.

Lorien: Yes. And that's why I really appreciated it when she was like, ‘no, you're direct.’ I was like, oh. I'm not awkward. Well, 'cause sometimes being direct is very awkward and challenging for a lot of people. But I decided–

Meg: –especially when you're a woman– 

Lorien: –'cause I'm a woman where I'm like, ‘okay, what's the thing with this? Tell me what this is.’ And then people get sort of that I'm demanding, aggressive, you know? 

Meg: That's why you're gonna be a great director. 

Lorien: I am gonna be a great director. And that project is moving forward too, so. Woohoo! 

Meg: Woohoo!

Lorien: Anyway, the bad news this week is that I broke my foot. 

Meg: No! There's always something Lorien. 

Lorien: There's always something with me.

Jeff: God, wait, I did not know this.

Meg: Yeah, she broke her foot! That's why she's not downstairs in her office. 

Lorien: You guys, I broke my foot doing laundry, so beware of the laundry. Laundry is dangerous. Don't do it. Anyways, I'm fine. Everything is fine. It's fine. Everything is fine. 

But it also has made me learn how to ask for what I need. Which is very hard and a skill I'm working on, which melds into my conversation about having a new manager, right? Like, I have to really think about what I need and what I want and then articulate it.

Meg: Jeff, how was your week?

Jeff: It was good. I teach a filmmaking class, you know, maybe three times a year, all about micro budget filmmaking. My debut feature came out in the fall and I just learned so much that it's something I really love doing, and I love teaching. I love connecting with other writers. I think it's fun to kind of get in the foxhole with other writers, and, because it can be so solitary, it's really fun to meet other folks who have really big, exciting ideas.

But one of the things we do in my class is I teach around a bunch of other micro budget films in addition to my own, because I sort of think of them as their own genre. And I bring this all up, because it's such a fun reminder that we should be watching things. You know, I think sometimes it's easy for us to get caught up in our own work and forget to be, you know, keeping up with what's popular, or especially during award season right now, what's gonna be discussed come Oscar season. 

But you know, I think it's important because watching other people's work helps us define our own taste. It helps clarify what we love as writers. You know, if we deeply connect with something, that's a great chance for us to try it on the page.

Or you know, conversely, if we're watching something, and we don't really connect with it. It's really important to kind of ask yourself, why? What was it about maybe the writing or even other elements of filmmaking that were, keeping you at an arm's length when it came to understanding your own work, or the work you're watching.

And you know, we're very always conscious of reminding you all not to disparage other people's work on like the Facebook group, or with other industry contacts, or at meetings. But, I do think it's important to have a community of like-minded people, maybe it's your writers group or other film friends to discuss things. Because talking with other people about what we're watching is often the best way to sharpen and create a better understanding of our own work and our own taste.

So, just a reminder to all of you to not only be watching stuff but talking about it in a safe and private environment. One of my students in particular really connected with one of the movies I assigned. And the thing that she said, which was great, was like, ‘I've been looking for a tonal comp or like another filmmaker who I feel like shares some similarities with my own voice on the page. And I'm so glad to have found it at this budget and this will be so valuable for me as I keep studying and pitching.’ 

So that was just really great And yeah, just keep watching stuff guys and keep talking about it. Meg LeFauve. How was your week?

Meg: My week was fine. I have, I'm in a situation where I'm pitching a lot and I'm pitching either how to revise a concept that I'm being paid for. 'Cause this does happen. Sometimes you get a job and then when you do the outline, they're like, ‘oh wait, we did ask for that, but we're not sure we want that.’ Or, now that you show us what we asked for, maybe that's not what we want. And you have to go away, like reconceptualize and re-pitch. Right? 

So I'm re-pitching. I'm pitching to this is all with my co-writer right now, my husband. And we're pitching to get new jobs. 'Cause you're always working on one and then taking the time at the end of the day or on the weekends, just, okay, ‘what's the next job? How are we getting the next job?’ 

And you know, I think I'm weary because I've been pitching so much and I'm a little, we weary of that nobody, no pros, no executives, no pro producers, nobody, tell you what they like. Like I know that in your writer's group, you should always start with what you like. When I have a writer's group or a collective, I always am the person who's saying, first, we're gonna talk about what you liked. A, because it just makes your brain feel better, but also because it helps you know what works.

And I think that's just as important because if you just, they're all just diving in and saying, ‘well, I don't get this, and what about this? And let's talk about that.’ 

Lorien: It doesn't, and you're like, my, it doesn't mean anything if you don't know. Like you don't–

Meg: –did you like any of it? Like what? So suddenly everything's called into question, right?

Meg: Yeah. Like even if they're just talking about the last five, the two things you said of this 20 minute pitch, it now makes me wonder, ‘oh, well if you didn't get that tote, two things. Did you get anything else? Did you understand this? Did you get that?’ 

It's a little, I'm a little bit tired because it's, there's, it's so self, you have to self-motivate. You have to self talk to yourself about, well, they didn't, well, I'm lucky 'cause I'm a riding partner, so in the car he can be like, ‘listen. They did say this, and I think that means they did like it.’ 

Like, it helps to have somebody hear the same thing and sometimes they do say good things and you don't hear because it's in the middle of a worm nest of things that don't work.

And so your brain doesn't even hear it. Right. But it's hard. It's just effort. It, and I'm finding myself actually getting physically tired from the effort of doing it over and over and then end doubting, and my fucking worry brain comes in and starts driving anxiety, starts driving. And that's just a waste of time, honestly, because let's just write.

Lorien: But what you're not gonna do is call them and say, ‘Hey, so I'm gonna be direct. Tell me three things you've liked.’

Meg: No, I'm not, absolutely not. These are like the pro jobs as pro like executives, man. It's not the time. And it's not what they do. And that's not their, I mean, in a weird way that they don't see that as their job. That's not their job. It's my job. Like I, I've just gotta go figure it out. 

And again, I'm being very black and white. I'm sure they did say a couple of things, but they were buried. But the good news is one of the projects that my husband and I've been working on is a TV show, and we're gonna send it out and package it.

Meg: So that'll be fun. It's really fun to–

Lorien: Oh my God, it's so exciting. 

Meg: Yeah. And it's so fun to talk to a casting director and, you know, dream now. 

Lorien: Oh my god. 

Meg: You know, I've been in this business long ago to know this is just smoke. Like, there this really, nothing is real. 

Lorien: Nothing is real. 

Meg: Nothing's real. Like, I'm not actually maybe gonna get this person who's gonna say yes and the show will never go, or whatever. I mean, that's always, but it's so fun just to pretend. 

Lorien: Yes. 

Meg: And just to imagine and get everybody excited. So that's been super fun. And then the last thing I'd say is you know, this one thing that we had to re-pitch the concept and we, you know, we gotta go ahead to go onto the new version, but now of course I'm like, ‘oh my gosh,’ I not only are you have this new version, but you now have to, how do I introduce them?

Like to even start writing, I'm like, ‘what? How do we introduce this couple?’ And we fell madly in love with them. But we also have to know their foibles and their flaws and their wounds. And it all has to be packed in there. And what is it? Where are we? Are we in a diner? Are we, where are we? Where are we meeting them?

And my brain, and then all of a sudden I'm like, ‘I don’t know what I don't know. I'm just jumping to what I know.’ I don't know. I don't know how this is gonna start. I just know that she's gonna be with the old man. So let's just start there. 

Lorien: Here's an idea. Meg, it's raining. There you go. Now go write it.

Meg: Seriously? 

Lorien: There you go. 

Meg: I mean, mean, it's, sometimes you just have to like make shit up and note this is not the opening scene, it's never going to be the opening scene. 

Lorien: Yeah. 

Meg: Because the truth is, and this does go to speak to our topic today, that la, that opening scene often contains the entire movie in it. And so you can't know what it is until you go write the whole thing. 

And I'm not sure I yet fully know the characters. Like I know they're my idea of them. I have an intellectual idea. We pitched them right? But I, they haven't walked and talked yet on the page. So, I don't know how to meet them because I don't know what's so fun about them, specifically in their character, in how they see life and how they would approach a problem, blah, blah, blah.

So I'm just letting myself not know and skip it. Or just writing the rain version. Let's just write Lorien’s it's raining version, just to get going. 

Lorien: I had like a whole bunch of ideas already. Like write when they first met. Write their first fight. Write their, you know, first time traveling together.

Meg: I'm so lazy. I'm literally like, ‘I don't wanna write all that. It's not gonna be in the movie.’ 

Lorien: It's so lazy. Isn't that what we tell everyone though? ‘Here are the exercises you need to do to, you know, like find out how they are.’ 

Meg: And they're good exercises, maybe I should actually go do that. Especially 'cause I have a writing partner, so we have to agree in a way and just find it together. Right? Like, but I love that and I love having a partner now, because I got so trained at Pixar to have all of these ideas constantly thrown at you. And it gives me a lot of energy to keep working on it. Versus scraping the empty melon of my brain after a while.

Lorien: Such a visual Meg. 

Meg: You're welcome. 

Lorien: Such a visual. So, okay. 

Meg: I am a writer. So there, you go. 

Lorien: So do you think that, has this has anything to do with the engine of the movie? 

Meg: Everything has to do with the engine of the movie. Oh, in terms of how we're gonna meet them?

Lorien: Yeah. 

Meg: Yes. Yes it will. Yes, it absolutely, because I think this opening scene and meeting them has to have a lot of the elements, if not all of them, of the engine. It's gotta have 'em all, which is why I'm not gonna worry about it, 'Cause it's too overwhelming, right. I mean, sometimes it's just too overwhelming, and this so you just don't write.

So this is my advice. Fuck it. Just start wherever you can, just so you're writing, which is what I'm gonna do. 

Okay. So yes, it all has to do with the engine. So let's just jump in. 

You know, I was first coming to Hollywood back when there were buggies and horses. Haha. A long time ago. I went on an interview for, to be an assistant to an executive. Huge, huge well, he was an executive at a giant producer's company. And these were a pair of producers, and they're probably, they're super famous, they were super famous at the time. One of them still is. 

And he goes ‘listen. I'm just gonna stop you right now.’ And I go, ‘why?’ And he goes, ‘well, because I can just tell you are not the kind of girl that's gonna get the hookers and blow.’ And I was like, ‘oh yeah no, no I'm not the kind of girl who's gonna go get the hookers and blow.’

And he was like ‘yeah, that's so, that's not, this isn't the right job for you, so let's just talk about storytelling. Let's just talk about, like, what are you interested in?’ And let's just, and he just, we just started talking about this. 

Lorien: Oh my god. Hookers and blow. Oh God. 

Meg: This was the nineties people. That's what I came into when I first came to Hollywood. It was, that was the level of stuff that was happening. Okay? It was Heidi Fleiss girls and all kinds of stuff. Yippy. Okay. So, he said, ‘you know what I want? I want a assistant, or even a development executive, I want someone in my company who I know understands the difference between a situation and a story. And if you don't really understand that, you're not gonna go far. You gotta understand the difference between a situation and a story.’ 

And it stayed with me forever, as did the hookers and blow comment.

Lorien:  I was gonna say is hookers and blow a situation? That's just a situation. 

Meg: That's a situation. It is not a story. It sounds like a story. 

Lorien: You, Meg, are the story. You are a story, but it's not a story.

Meg: Well, me having to get hookers and blow would start to become a story. It's still a little bit of a situation, but it's really starting to shape more into a story. Oh my God, this has gone off the rails. But, so, what I'm talking about is like everybody, when you're a writer, what you really wanna hear, whether you're a pro or emerging, what you want someone to say to you, or you're a giant director at Pixar, what you want someone to say to you is, this is a movie. Right? 

That's the, that is the line. That's what, that's the edict. And everybody in Hollywood is out working so hard to get to the point that somebody says to them, this is a movie. Super hard to get. It's like a brass ring on the merry-go-round. It means that you've taken an idea, a situation, a series of events, and you've turned them into a movie.

For me, that magic tip over point to ‘this is a movie’ is about having a very clear story engine. Now, our friend of the show, Sheila Hanahan Taylor, who's a producer, would add in, ‘it's all about concept,’ right? That is really, they're looking for the concept of what you're doing. IE poster tagline, right?

So her brain goes there, right? 'Cause she's an outside-in creator. She still knows all this stuff I'm gonna talk about. But that tip over to ‘this is a movie’ from a writer's point of view, from where I sit, is about this story engine. Okay? And so, this is just a phrase I've made up, by the way, again, anything we say on this show in terms of craft, take it or leave it.

I don't, it's just tools in your toolbox. There is no rules. I do not, if you don't wanna use the story engine, then don't. If it doesn't work for you, don't use it. But if it's helpful, this is what my brain from being a writer, from being a producer for 10 years, and from teaching at UCLA, AFI, has really consolidated down what. 

You know, at UCLA, I would ask the same like 12 questions over and over, and suddenly I'm realizing, oh my gosh, this is just, these are elements in everybody's engines. Okay? 

So the first and basic and base, not basic. It's not basic at all. The base level of any engine and any story is going to be thematic. Right? 

I think we have an entire episode on theme that we can send you over to, but I'm gonna go through just really quickly and name all the elements and then we'll go back and talk about them one by one. Okay? So for me, the elements of a story engine are theme, tone, tone can be genre, not always, main character with a goal. There's a lot to say about that. But there is a plot goal. How about that? Half the time in our workshops, it's like–

Lorien:  –yeah, I was gonna say– 

Meg: –what's the plot goal? There's a conflict to that plot goal. That sounds super basic, but I can't tell you how much this is what is not happening in your engines, that there is an antagonistic, either force, or being, that is in conflict and stopping you from getting the want. The goal. 

And there’s stakes. Some kind of external and emotional stakes, both, the stakes have to be internal and external. Sheila Hanahan Taylor will say, the bigger the stakes, the bigger the movie, Right? End of the world, aliens landing, pretty big movie, right? Whether grandma will say she loves me before she dies, that's probably a smaller movie.

Big emotional stakes, not that big external stakes, unless she's leaving you billions of dollars, but probably not even then, still a small movie. And by small, it's totally fine, by the way I love, it's my favorite thing to write. But I'm just, you have to understand what you're selling or what you're creating.

The seventh thing is a plan to get the goal. So you've got a goal, you have conflicts to it, you have stakes, and you have some sort of plan to get it. So for example, the Yellow Brick Road, right? What, and this is something that I think a lot of people don't understand, and this is really one of the biggest tip overs into a movie idea to a story versus just incident. 

The plan creates expectation, which you can then subvert. And it also is act two. It's act two. It's not sexy, it's not, you know, the thing everybody wants to talk about. Everyone wants to talk about the tornado and the munchkins and Glenda coming down in the bubble, right? But until we have a plan of the yellow brick road to get home, that's the movie.

And executives and people listening for these concepts and these ideas, they know if you've got that or not. And then the main relationship. And that's just something that I love that you don't have to have it, but I really like to look at what is the main relationship of this story. Because I think most people watching stories, that's really what they're watching for, is relationship.

We're gonna talk about the main character and all their arcs and all that stuff, but the audience is looking for relationship, and how that's evolving. 

Yes. Lorien I see your raised hand.

Lorien: I have a question. So I wonder if we can define Story Engine because you just named all these great things that we need. Are all of them adding up to a story engine? 

Meg: Yes. 

Lorien: 'Cause when I think of Story Engine, I'm like, okay, the plot, the goal, like–

Meg: –it's the elements of the engine are these eight things. And again, there might be more for other people, but for me. 

Lorien: So all these things have to exist to make the machine go. 

Meg: Yes. Which means they're all in act one. They're all in act one. They're all established and ready to go and ready to fire off into act two. Now sometimes main relationships don't show up until act two, but I find for me, in my brain, it's better if they've already started in act one, somehow. Because usually the main relationship starts before the plan arrives, before that goal really solidifies. Not always. 

But so these are the elements, that I know, all of the notes, they're coming back to one of these is not firing, it's not clear, it's not working with the other elements in a clear way, and it's becoming mud, right? Or I'm throwing so much into this script, right? I've just, every time I hit a problem, I threw a new idea in, or a new situation, or a new bad thing could happen, that it's just now a pile of situations. 

Because it doesn't have to do with that ultimate goal. It doesn't have to do with the stakes, it doesn't have to do with the plan. So it's kind of a, the armature, right? It's is, are these elements? Now, I don't have, I would love to have a wonderful phrase to say to you like, like Javi has for TV engines, but for me it's just knowing these elements and being able to answer the question of how they all interrelate and work together.

Because these set you off into act two. Then act two is watching that engine go and the character, your main character making choices, your main character making choices creates the plot of the movie. Your main character, watching other people make choices does not create a plot of a movie. Well, it does, but no actor's gonna do it because it's pretty boring. And they don't, it doesn't, there is they will inevitably not be the main character. Somebody else is gonna start stealing that main character position. 

So I'm gonna watch them make choices based on the engine that's been set up, which is then gonna create, the antagonistic force is gonna have a response. So they're active behavior and then I'm watching the shifts happening inside them as characters. I'm watching the shifts happen in the relation, that main relationship. 

So all those eight elements are going to start shifting and moving and changing as we go through act two, the stakes are gonna get higher. So they're evolving. The plan has gotta suddenly change, right? Because guess what? It ain't working, right? That main relationship is evolving. The conflict's getting harder. 

The goal can change. Not always. I like it when the main big goal stays the same. IE save Riley. We, you know, help Riley remains the main goal. It's how you do it that is starting to change, that goal of ‘how’ is changing. And it changed drastically for Joy at the end of act two, right? Because her how, of how to help Riley, was keep Sadness away from her and get these, and now it's, oh, I have to, Sadness has to drive. Like it just becomes completely opposite that goal.

So it's evolving. It all was established in act one, so that as it evolves the audience is with you in that evolution, we're not kind of catching up or wondering what happened or where'd that come from, or, you know what I mean? We are with the main character on that journey because all of these elements have been very clearly defined and expressed in action and behavior and drama, right? Nobody's saying them. 

That's why you're choosing the scenes you're choosing, to set up all of these basic elements. And then, so basically they're all evolving through all the character points of structure until you get to that transformative end of act two and then act three, you've got your satisfying resolution of what you set up in act one, right?

If we're doing three act structure, and we're doing movies, that third act reverberates all the way back to that engine, right? And I love third acts where it feels inevitable, but you didn't see it coming right? Like that act one engine, so was firing. It's the how that totally blew your mind. Like even for claiming characters instead of transformative ones, right?

Like, Moana has no idea that she's the one that's gonna have to go do it in the climax of the movie, she thinks it's Maui, right? But it's so fun that of course she's gonna go do it, right? You kind of, when she's doing it, you realize that's what that first song was all about, right? So that engine really goes all the way through and it comes to a climactic, kind of, inevitability in the third act.

Now, there's other things in terms of concept, and we can go back and talk about each element, but just, I just wanna say before we do. Now, if I put my producer brain on, of course, in terms of concept and engine, people are gonna ask about is it unique and fresh? Does it feel modern? Is there an, who is the audience for this? Is it commercial? Is it indie? 

So there are other things you can ask from that outside-in. I just wanna be clear about that. Especially going out and just trying to sell or know if you have something sellable. But for now, today, I just, let's just stick to the elements of that engine and talk about those a little bit.

Lorien: Yeah, one thing I think it's worth talking about a little bit is plot again, in Act two and character want this always comes up in the workshops and comes up with so many scripts I read that when I say, what does the character want, they say to have a good relationship with Grandma.

Meg: Yeah. There, it's so funny because when I first came to Hollywood, it was the time of selling scripts for high concepts for a million dollars. And they would, and it was really all concept plot driven stuff being sold. 

And so there was a lot of work I had to do with my students about, but what is this emotionally, right? Like, what is the emotional arc? What did they need? What's their wound? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? But now it's almost like done an inverse and there's so much talk about that.

There's so much coaching about that. There's so much instruction about it. And by the way, I don't think a lot of it is lava, which I think meaning you're just intellectually doing it. You're not emotionally doing it, which is a whole other show, but nobody's remembering that no, you're supposed to have a plot, you're supposed to have a conceptual plot, that we can put on a poster. What do they want? What's happening? A want. 

When we, when Lorien and I say, that's so great, what do they want? We mean: to rob the bank to kill that guy? To catch that killer? 

Lorien: To save the circus. 

Meg: To save the circus. 

Lorien: and this does come from Story Engine, right? When I was first coming up as a writer it was always, what's the difference between the, there was a want and a need. And I think that conversation of need for me doesn't help me. I have to think about what do they want? 'Cause they are so unaware of whatever that need is.

Meg: They're completely unaware of what they need. If they are aware of it, we don't have a movie. Why do it? 

Lorien: That's right. That's right. So it's want, and what do they learn at the end of the movie? That's how I like to think about it in terms of plot and theme. I dunno if that's an oversimplification, but– 

Meg: No, but sometimes you gotta, especially for an engine, you be simple. Yeah. Right? Yes. And the thing is like, what do they learn at the end of the movie? The other thing I would say just real quickly is what do they, this is going back to situations versus story. If at the end of act two, they learn about other people. 

They learn about the situation. That is not a story. A story is what they learn about themselves. It's more, maybe that's where the lava's sitting in there. I can't tell you how many people's end of act twos are. They realize that their grandmother never would truly love them, blah, blah, blah, because she blah, blah, blah. And she, and the incident when she, it's like, no. It's the decision.

Lorien:  My question is why do we make the decision we make? 

Meg: Why no or what? Well, the decision comes from the realization of learning. Yeah. So there's the realization of why do I need my grandmother's love? Why do I need that? Like it's a self looking at yourself and taking ownership and responsibility in the best sense of that word.

Having a response and an ability for what you, what life you've created. Right. Moana, even though she's not a transformative character, has to face, ‘no I'm scared to do this. I don't think I can do it.’ Like, what the heck? I thought it was pretty great that I could go get this guy, right? What you have to look at yourself, right?

Nemo's dad has to look at himself and realize,’ I'm, I created this because of my own fear of my, for my son, right?’ And that as Dory says, ‘if he's never gonna do it, if nothing ever happens to him, nothing ever happens to him.’ That's ah-ha for the character, right? So that, to me, they don't know that in act one.

Lorien: That's right. 

Meg: You have to completely convince me of the other thing. And that's right. The want to, the external want is the fun ride we're gonna go on. It's what everybody wants for the poster. It's the fun of it. I have to know that. And their want is a reflection of who they are. And you've convinced me that I have to want it too.

I have to want what they want. I have to want them to rob the bank. Now there are exceptions to this where you have characters who are anti-heroes or kind of those super innocent characters. That's super high math. If somebody said, write that, I would go watch a lot of them and see how you pull that math off.

But in general, you want what they want you, and you've done a lot of work with your engine concept, your engine points to get that. So theme we have a whole episode on, please go listen, I'm talking about emotionally thematic. It's what we're talking about right now. What is this about? What about the human condition are you talking about?

And it's one thing, it's not five things, it's one thing. You've gone so deep down into that vulnerability in yourself and how you see the human condition that there is a revelatory insight into. And that's your own. And that's very vulnerable. And we have a, I won't spend too much time on that 'cause we have a whole episode for it.

Jeff: Tone.

Meg: Have we done an episode on tone? We probably should.

Jeff: Oh, we have? Yeah. Sheila came in to do a tone episode.

Meg: Okay, good. So then let's just, that thing I don't, we can talk about tone enough, right?

Lorien: Because there's tone as it relates to genre. There's tone, comp, there's tone, story tone. Like there's so, like tone is this sort of a amorphous thing that when somebody says, well, what's the tone?

Meg: You're like what do you mean? It's, yeah. It's how you want the audience to feel. I think comedies are the easiest way to see tone. Is it a Cohn Brothers comedy? Is it an Adam Sandler comedy? And what kind of Adam Sandler comedy? Is it the one where the gumballs come out of the sky and he puts up an umbrella?

Is it the one where he's with his buddies and they're drinking and doing fart jokes? Or is it the one where he's the misanthrope guy living in a, you know, working in a warehouse like. They're all comedies, but their tones are, he can do such. Adam Sandler can do such radically different tones in his comedies.

It's just an easy way for my brain to try to explain it to you. Now, tone sometimes be genre, right? A horror movie is a horror movie, but I think even within a horror movie, there are tones, right? Yes. The tone is you're trying to scare your audience. How are you trying to make me feel? I'm trying to make, create dread.

I'm trying to create scares. Yes. All of that stuff. And if it's, but is it a chainsaw horror movie where you're trying to, you know, it's very graphically violent? Or is it cat people, or attack of the killer tomatoes? Or is it cat people where we never even see the thing that's coming after you because it's all just about dread and building suspense, right?

So what's the, that the genre is good to know. If you're doing a genre genres are easier to sew, but, what is the tone within that genre? And sometimes when, inevitably in our workshops when we ask what's the tone, they inevitably tell me us a plot comp. And I get it because sometimes plots do have certain tones.

Meg: Like I get that and I would do the same. And you can start there, but really it's not, it's how you want us to feel. Right.

Jeff: It can also get confusing because our pictures will throw out two totally different tone comps–

Meg: –and right away you're like, oh, you don't know the tone because there're, and you're totally unmoored.

They're so different that I don't know now what you're doing. And it's so important because we have to know what we're doing or we can't help or you can't pitch or they don't know what you're selling. Right? So yeah, tonally it's how you want the audience to feel. And then for the main character, we talked about this is about having a goal, having an external plot goal.

Now. So who's the main character emotionally? What's their arc? I always do polls. Like what They're gonna start here and they're gonna believe this about the world and themselves. And by the end in the third act, because they woke up in the end of act two, they can do something they never, ever, in a million years could have done in Act one, either.

That's 'cause they're a transformative character and they needed to transform in order to see it and do that action. And it's the opposite. IE literally in Inside Out, we drew and put it on the wall, right? Ronnie Del Carmen, drew Joy. Keeping the core memories away from Sadness and at the end handing them over.

And that gave us a behavior, a be that what, it's what they do in the climax of the movie, not what they say. 'cause people are liars. We don't believe them. They have to do something in the third act. That in a million years they could have never done an act one. And I didn't see that. I believe their act one was right or else if I'm ahead of them and I'm just waiting for them to get to act three.

You've lost all connection and emotional to that movie. Right? So we talked about, so having a main character, we talked about what is, you can, I don't even care what words you use. Wound need, use, whatever works for you. Emotional pain survival instinct. I think everybody's in a survival instinct, really, when you meet them in act one. 

And survival instincts can look like skills, right? Ambition, you know, being funny. Usually what they're very good at is protecting them from the vulnerability of how they need to grow. And imagine asking a person to give up their greatest strength what they are per, which they perceive as their greatest strength.

Joy's greatest strength is that she keeps Riley happy, and we're gonna ask her to give that up. Right? That's a big emotional shift, right?

Lorien: One way I've started to think about this is the superpower, like you're talking about, the great is actually a reflection of their super flaw. Oh, that's instead of coming at it from flaw, like what's wrong with them and what wound do they have?

I'm like, okay, what are they really good at and how does that serve them? Right? I think I'm funny and it's a way I keep myself safe. Right. But the super flaw then is that I'm afraid to be vulnerable, you know? So like it's all buried in the same thing. It doesn't be, yeah. No, I love that.

Meg: Yeah, I love that. I don't think when Jodie was creating characters, when she would talk about a character's flaw, she didn't like to talk about something they had to get rid of or that was wrong with them, or they have to cut it out. It was much more about they're using an energy and a skill and a power in the wrong way.

Right? Right. So. Being joy trying to keep riley happy is not bad and she will still be able to do that. It's just that she can't do it all the time. And to the detriment of all the other emotions having their turn. Right. So, and that's why  we believe that Joy's choice in act one is the right one, right?

Lorien: 'Cause we see her being successful. It's not like we're like, oh, she has to get over that. I see what she needs to learn. It's like, no, she has to keep Riley safe. It's been working. 

Meg: Oh no. If you already see what she has to learn. Yeah. The movie's over the momentum of the movie, this went out and you're not emotionally involved in the movie anymore, and you don't care what's gonna happen next.

I mean, that's the thing in terms of now to jump to the external plot goal. You do not go to the mo to the movies and then go to the bathroom and come back and sit down and go, what happened with their emotional need? You know? No. You literally go, you go, what happened? Meaning the plot. Did. Did the guy get in the room? What did I miss? What did I miss? Oh my God, I missed the guy. Get in the room. 

Lorien: This is why they have, but this is why they have like, here's when the best time to go pee is in a long movie, right? So you don't miss anything.

Meg: This is your job. People as a movie is to create scenes that I shouldn't be, I can't go to the bathroom because it's all too good. It's all moving, it's changing, it's evolving. So two questions. Is this a movie? Can you go to the bathroom? I'm just trying to emphasize that what we love about storytelling is what happens in the plot. All the other stuff is the subtext. It's subtext. And if you have a really good plot, it reveals subtext because of the choices and how the plot moves and changes is telling me the subtext, it's telling it.

You shouldn't have to have me sit down over the campfire and tell you because the very actions they're choosing are telling it to me. Right. It's hard to get, by the way, what I'm talking about is not easy to find those great scenes. So plotting is so, so bright. 

Lorien: Yeah. Just to double down on that, it's easy to look at a movie that's successful, like inside out and see, look, this is how it works.

But the process of making that work was hard fought hard one, right? It was bonkers. It took years and it wasn't just like we laid all these story engine things out. We went, here it is. Here it is. Here it is. It's, you know, it was a lot of moving things around and making the choices that didn't work. 

Meg: We talked about throwing whole versions out and then going back, okay, let's go back to the elements of the engine.What are they going back or realizing, oh wait, in this version we just totally lost the stakes. I don't know what happened, but the stakes don't work at all. Or, oh my gosh, we don't like joy anymore. What happened? We don't like her. 

Lorien: So just as a caution, when you read Brilliant screenplays and watch, gorgeous movies. It didn't just happen. You know, that looking at that stuff is a good place to learn and absorb and question process. But you know, it's easy to feel humbled to the point of quitting. Try not to do that.

Meg: No, I mean, just know you don't quit because everybody's going through it. Everybody is writing their 15 drafts, 16 drafts or Michael Arnt, you're writing a hundred like it.

That's just the process. 'cause what we're talking about, these eight elements of the engine, oh my gosh, they're hard to get all working together and into it, the singular track and then it's just craft to lay down the layers. Right. And then, you know, the other element here, the fifth element is conflict to a plot goal.

I can't, so many people, including myself, are just reluctant to do conflict. You're just reluctant and you're not beating your character up enough. You're really not putting them into tougher and tougher situations. And I'll tell you, when you work with an actress, she wants to know in every scene that she's in, why it's a new scene and why it's different.

‘Cause if she's just repeating the same thing she already did, she doesn't, why is she doing it? Right? Every scene she's in should be evolving. The evolving, the conflict, evolving, all of these other elements are all evolving. Every scene and the way you're gonna get them to evolve and not repeat is through conflict, right?

Conflict illuminates. It tells me you're gonna push your main, you're gonna beat the crap out of your main character. I mean, it's, you should create scenes that are so hard. You don't know what they're gonna do. You don't know how they're gonna get out of this. You really don't, because if you don't know, I'm not gonna know.

Right, and it's, and if sometimes you're like, I don't know, but I'm just gonna jump to the next thing because I don't know. And that's great. Then Jess, this is why you do many drafts, you know, keep pushing. I would rather have to get the note. There's too much conflict. This is, you're beating them up too much.

Which by the way, I've never gotten that note. Ever. Even as a producer, that has never happened. Right? So to C, you have to create conflict. And the B, the harder the conflict, the better the story. Period. End of story. And this is true of claiming characters, right? Just Oh yeah. Because

Lorien: they're claiming character doesn't mean they can just skip to their loo across the, well, they cannot. 

Meg: Yeah. As a matter of fact, you could even pause it. It has to be harder. Yes. Because it's such an awakening to their power, and so they're gonna really have to start using it and waking up to their power. Right. So, you have to really challenge them. Pretty hard to get them to wake up. Whereas transformative characters, they're wrong.

So you know, you have some pretty clear, obvious ways to show them they're wrong. 

Lorien: They're wrong,and beating them up means shit happens and they make choices. It's not just shit happens to them. 

Meg: No. That's a reactive, main character. They're forced, into a, they are forced into a very bad moment, situation and choice.

And they have, and that choice takes us to the next scene that if they hadn't made that choice, you wouldn't be there. You wouldn't be there. You would not be there except they made a choice. It's the only way it moves forward, and it's what movie stars want. I'm just telling you this. They want to create the plot, the movie, and that's what a reader wants, you know?

Lorien: Yes. 

Meg: What I want is nodding fun, because we're like, oh my God, what would I choose? Oh my God. She's choosing that. She's choosing it. Oh my, holy shit. She's going out the window. She's going out the window. I never even saw that as a possible choice, but she's so unique. Or off her nut or whatever. She's going out the window now.

Meg: What is she gonna do? Do you hear what's next happening is coming up. You're like, what is she gonna do? She's hanging out the window like when Kristen Wiig in Bridesmaids. 

Lorien: Yes. Crawl. It's those damn almonds in the bride shop to prove a point. Like, I'm fine. And she's sweating from the meats and like it's just, you're just like, yeah, of course she's doing that. Of course she's doing that. 

Meg: Of course she is. And she climbed over a wall. That was her choice to get out of the, at the very beginning, you automatically know who she is because of her choice. Because choice is not just to create plot, it tells us who they are, right? It tells us the specificity of their character is in their choice and that you want surprising choices.

Right. If they're just choosing over and over, what I would choose, it really oddly gets boring, right?

Lorien: They're a hero. It's the wish fulfillment. It's the wish. I wanna go and kick over the fondue fountain and the giant cookie when I'm mad at somebody. Like, yeah, kick it. Like I'm dreading it, but also like, fuck yeah, it's my wish. Fulfillment, you know? I don't get to see that or do that in real life. Go to the movies.

Meg: I get to live it. We get to live it, and we get to do stuff. And so it's watching the conflict rise and their choices rise. And that's what's changing them. That's what's changing them. Not conversations. And I'm not saying a conversation can't change them, but it's generally not.

I mean, listen, if you're doing My Dinner With Andre, yes, the conversation is changed, but I'm generally, we're not talking about that right now. We're talking about bigger, more mainstream movies. And then I just to talk about the plan, like I said, it's the yellow brick road. Even if you think, hate this idea, just as a writing exercise, try it.

What is the plan? Have them lay it out in act one. This is what we're gonna do, this is how we're gonna do it, and if we can just get to here, we'll be fine. And we can totally do it. How hard could it be? It's a road walk down the road, right? Oh, well, guess all the shit that's gonna happen down that road.

There's gonna be Tinman and lions and monkeys and witches and all kinds of stuff, right? But she's on the road, right? So now the how can change, the plan can change, of course. But generally, I think especially if you're an emerging writer, don't do that to yourself. That's super high story math. Find your Yellow Brick Road.

And I know that, I know. This is the other thing about a plan. It gives you a ticking clock, right? Because generally plans have to happen by a certain time. If they don't, it's weird. It feels too easy, too loosey goosey. Again, different stories are different things like especially indie films. Like I love the movie Blue with Juliette Binoche. 

And I don't know, is there a ticking clock in that? Not really, because it expands quite a long time of her life. Right. But oddly, the ticking clock is what's happening inside of her and her coming back awake, right? But generally, in bigger movies, you really do wanna have some sort of tension and pressure on them.

Jeff: And I gotta say, it's interesting, Meg, your favorite movie of the year, Past Lives.

Meg: Sure. 

Jeff: It's like a small character driven indie, but there's totally a ticking clock because he is leaving the country. Unless she's able to make up her mind about her relationship. So the stakes are high, right? Because if she doesn't figure shit out, he's going back to Korea. It's a big deal.

Meg: And she's using time a lot, right? In so many ways of the ticking clock of this lifetime, or the next lifetime, or the past lifetime, you know, it creates a container, a sense of pressure on that drama to force the character into choice. 'Cause if you don't have a ticking clock, well, you know what?

I'll just go back to Munchkinland and hang out and wait, you know what I mean? So again, the ticking clock in that could be she wants to go home and her emotional need to go home. So the other thing that a plan gives you or that I want you to have in your plan, Jodie and I and everybody at Egg used to call it the getting on the bus problem.

If at any point in act one in your engine, your character could just go, you know what, I don't wanna and get on a bus and go home. There's no story. There's just no story. You have to lock 'em in somehow. Some way could be emotionally, it could be in the plotting, it could be in their plan, it could be in the relationship.

How about this? It could be in all of those. They are locked into this plot because the odd get on a bus problem. It just gets really loosey goosey, right? It just starts to drain the tension and the fun, oddly out of it. Again, there are certain movies that you don't, you, you could get on a bus and it doesn't matter, and we still love them.

But in general, you know, ask yourself, is your character locked in? Are they locked into this act two and this plan? And they really can't go back? I mean, Joy's locked in. She just got kicked outta headquarters. There's no, she's not she's got a real problem. That's the other way I think about it.

Sometimes, what is their problem? Whoever has the biggest problem will pull the main character attention, and a lot of times you're picking the wrong main character, or you think this is your main character, but they don't have the biggest problem. The person standing next to them or their antagonist has a much bigger problem.

The drama and story engine will start moving and working towards them. So what is the solution? A, give your character a bigger problem than theirs, or, B, change your main character because you got the wrong main character. Because often emerging writers do this all the time, they create reactive characters who aren't creating the plot.

They're not the ones making the choice, and they don't have the biggest problem. If anything, I would like you to do the most cliche version of all of those, just for your brain to see how much energy comes into this story when you do these things, when you give them high stakes and lock them in and make them have the choices.

Right? And so then the last thing to talk about would be the main relationship. This is, again, just a phrase I use. I don't care. Use it or don't use it. There's a lot of different relationships in movies. The expand, the example in Inside Out is Riley's really the par heart and pri, she's the prize of the movie.

The's what we're trying to save. Super important. You have to, emotionally, I have to want it. So you have to emotionally make me love ri. And Lorien, you'll remember in inside out, there was a lot of discussion about this in the early days of what was the main relationship? And it was just me trying to explain that sadness is the main relationship because she's traveling with joy in Act two and she actually holds a very important piece of this and helping joy change, right?

Everybody's help. Anybody who comes into Joy's realm is going to help her change. That's why they're in the movie otherwise, why are they in the movie? But the main relationship is kind of that beating heart and really ultimately it's the one you care about the most. Like I love Bing Bong, don't get me wrong, but the movie isn't about Bing Bong, right?

The movie's about Sadness, right? And Bing Bong is there to help us learn about Sadness and learn about pieces of Riley. But that core, main relationship, you know, it's so important emotionally to ground the movie. Now if you have an ensemble in a weird way, that main relationship can become those three friends maybe.

So it's not always one-to-one, but generally it is a two, two single people creating a core relationship of the movie. So it's just something that I like to think about and I like to track through the movie. It can be very subtle at first and you wouldn't know that's the main relationship and it rises out and becomes the main relationship.

It can be very clear right away. But in terms of your story engine, you know, you know that this is the main relationship of the movie. Now again, you could be doing a certain kind of movie and say, this character's gonna have multiple relationships. Okay, that's good. But I'll bet you they're still one of them is what we think about.

Like, let's look at Dorothy. So she's got a lot of relationships and we love them all, but as she leaves to go home, she kisses the scarecrow and says, I will miss you, most of all. 'cause he is the core relationship with. Right. So it can be a very subtle, deep thing or it can be super clear, like Dory clearly is the main relationship of Nemo, right?

Or the chef with threat or you know, there's very clear ones, but sometimes in an ensemble or a different way. But you as the creator need to know what's the heart, what's that beating heart main relationship of the movie. So those are all the things I ask. Those eight elements, probably 10 by the time we put want in, which we probably should add, Lorien, just a big fat, what do they want in the plot?

I really think a lot about them. I do a lot of writing about it, and I need to know at least something, I need to have some idea. Of how those come together in act one. How I'm gonna express them in act one and then where, how that all those elements start moving through.

Now, I'm not telling you, you have to map all of this out in outline before you start writing. You don't. But what will happen is you'll do a puke draft. 'cause you just have this idea and then you'll go take these elements and say, okay, given this is the clay that I dug up out of the riverbed, what would the theme of this be?

What is the tone? What changes tones a couple of times. Which tone do I wanna pick? So for that second draft, I would want you to start getting more specific. Now, Michael Arnt would say, pick one of these eight for the next draft and just get that right. Right? Like you can do it however you want. I tend to pick each element and try to do them each time and dig and change and dig.

And like Lorien said, do not expect that what we're talking about getting these story engines working. Man, we have been through a lot of movies at Pixar, Lorien, and I, and it, for every movie, it takes some time because it's not about Pixar and it's not about working at Marvel. And it's not about big movies.

It's, I've worked with indie filmmakers who we have the exact same conversations and who have done many drafts. It takes time to this engine to find it and make it work. But this is also the engine, I will just say that tells you if you have a short film or a movie. Right. Do you have a second act?

And do you have an engine that will propel you all the way to a third act? I think, Jeff, you had a question about that, didn't you? Yeah.

Jeff: I often find as I'm redrafting features, especially early in the process, that I can find the engines sort of petering out around the midpoint. Like, it's interesting, I almost think of a story engine as like, how much gas do you have in the tank?

And I often find that like, I have enough gas for a great act one and like a really fun act two A, and then you hit the midpoint and like all of a sudden you start repeating beats or like you didn't up the stakes enough. I don't know if anything I'm saying is resonating, but I almost think of a story engine as like how much gas is in the tank.

And I find that sometimes they're running outta gas around, you know, like page 58. No, it does.

Meg: I mean, a lot of times a lot of early drafts will peter out at a midpoint and that's when you have to realize, oh, I don't have an engine yet. I don't have a strong enough engine. It can also be the engine.

You're not challenging the elements of that engine enough, right? Like you are not really shifting the plot at the midpoint dramatically, right? Or shifting the main relationship dramatically or dramatically raising the stakes so that I did not see where this was gonna go. I should not see where it's gonna go in two B.

And I also see two A is kind of the fun of right, being your character up. And two B is, oh no it's serious now. So that engine and petering out can tell you, oh wait, I gotta go back. I gotta go back and look. And it's usually gonna be stakes. I think it's gonna be they're not locked in really hard and strong enough.

And I usually find that it has to be such a big shift at that midpoint. And then when you shift it, you realize, oh, that's what I'm doing in this movie. And then you gotta go back and redo act one, right? Because you didn't set up that. You didn't set up that part. And now it feels like two different movies.

Lorien: Right. So yeah. What's the worst thing that can happen at the midpoint? Right? Based on what you've already laid down. Jeff, you had another question.

Jeff: You know, I think you already kind of answered it, but it's just something I wanna shed light on. I think we often come into our early drafts with such a firm idea of what we think the engine is.

It's probably the thing that got us excited to write it in the first place. But I think, Meg, I just want you to tell our audience that it's totally fine and often important that your story engine will change as you keep drafting.

Meg: It has to change. It has to change the odds of you knowing. What your characters need and what that engine is right from the beginning. It's pretty slim, honestly that your beginning engine is just a way to get you to the next draft, into the next draft and the next draft, right? 

Jeff: But Meg, I was like so excited about that first idea, like, shouldn't that be the thing that I keep focusing on? Like the thing that kept me up at night from the very start of the project?

Meg: Well, there is an element of truth to that in that it has to stay your movie. You have to stay excited about it, right? You have to still love it. If you can note yourself into a movie you don't even like anymore, don't do that. But you'll learn a lot. You'll sure learn a lot when you write that movie you don't like.

And you'll learn a lot about the stuff you don't like and why you don't like it. So don't worry about that. 'cause boy, I've done 'em. We've all done them. But no, you have to allow this it to evolve this, you know, listen, it is the hero's journey for you, the writer too, and for the story. It's gonna go through the trials and tribulations and evolve with you as you go.

What's exciting about it? Is that I believe writing is a two-way street. You're writing with the universe and it has a much bigger, better story in mind than your little human brain can conceive of. When you start, there is so much waiting for you to discover. If you'll let go of the little tiny idea that you started with and you need to hold onto the spark, right?

I believe it. I'll never forget my friend John Morgan at the Sundance lab had gotten noted to the point of, he doesn't even know what this story is anymore. And I believe it was Rodrigo Garcia walked up and said, I want you to close your eyes, and I want you to remember the very first time you thought of this idea and why you loved it.

So you do sometimes have to go back and recapture that flame, which I'll be honest, I'm doing right now in one of my projects. But I ha I'm, I've let it move and become something else too. It has to be both. It has to be both.

Lorien: Sometimes I've talked to writers say, I know what Act three is. I know what the end is. And then they're writing to that, and I think that's great, but sometimes you have to write through it into a different act three to discover how you actually need to write act one and two into the act three you originally thought of. Because you have to go down all those weird paths. You have to be able to let go of your expectations at some point and then find, like you said, Meg, that bigger, better, more exciting version of it to get to the idea of where you wanted to get before.

Meg: And isn't that the fun of writing that you don't know? I mean, I hate it as much as I love it. 

Lorien: I was gonna say, that's the best thing and the worst thing. 

Meg: It's the best and worst thing because, but it's the worst thing when you don't know, and you're flying blind and you're riding blind and you're like, oh my God, it's due and holy shit.

But when the character turns around and goes, you know what? Let's go up the mountain. You're like, wait a minute, what? Where are we going? Oh, right. Like, I love that. I love when things come flying in and you didn't even know that's where it was gonna go. So as much as I want you to follow to do an engine, once that engine starts going, if it starts taking you down, call de sacs or like somebody on our Facebook page, I'm in a dark wood, right?

I've gone so far off the path and it's like, yes, you're in the dark wood, keep going. It's okay. Find out what this is, and then you'll go back to the engine, right? Once you go make that those spelunking or explorations, then you go back to the engine and and make sure it's clear. You know, the only reason I even give you guys elements of a feature engine is just about your own clarity on what you're creating, right?

You do need to have some clarity at some point, and different times of the process, different times. I mean, how many times did Lorien, did it Pixar? Was it just like, what is the most fun thing that could happen right now? What is the funniest, most surprising, unique thing that could happen right now? And that's super fun to do too.

Yeah. Right. So it's not like, doesn't make logical sense. No, it doesn't have to make logical sense at all. It doesn't have to go with the engine, it doesn't have to go with anything. But that's the fun of it, right? Because I do think once you get these elements humming, your brain will bring in what is on that track, even though it may appear to be completely different.

Metaphorically. Oh my God, it's still, we're still in that, on that track of this engine.

Lorien: Well, I'm about to reread an old feature I wrote, and I'm gonna ask myself all these questions and I'm gonna see what I come up with to see where it's tracking and where the engine might not be working. And I'm looking forward to it because it's old enough that I can not, I can just pretend someone else wrote it, right?

Because I, it was a different writer back then, so it's in a, it's different. 

Meg: So I'd be like, oh yeah, okay. I have notes and I really only ever want any thing we talk about here to be about. Inspiring you. It shouldn't be, don't. Please don't now use what we're saying as a club against yourself and, well, none of my stories have this.

Or I hate stakes. Or I hate, but, okay. Yeah. We all don't do some of these elements. Well look at what's working, right?

Lorien: Yeah. Oh, look, I have a clear plot. Great. Right? I have a clear one. 

Meg: And then rob the bank. It's pretty clear this is a disaster movie. The stakes are pretty clearly high.

Lorien: Right. Look at what is working and then not let that drive you into asking the questions instead of a checklist. Yes. I just think that's, like you said, what do, what is working? We have to look at our own work that way too. What do you like? What do you love in your own work? You know, what's the superpower? It we're just so used to beating ourselves up and we have to fix it. And we break it and Yeah. 

Meg: Because what's working and what you like, yes, is gonna have elements of the engine in it that are working. Yes. That's great. So now let's look at the other elements of the engine and how they can support that.

Lorien: Yes. I think that's it. How they can support what's working and then those will rise up into their working two place. So it's like, identify one thing in the engine elements that is working, and then use the other things to bolster that up–

Meg: –and yeah and give it to mention, right? 'Cause this should all just be to help, not to create, you know, like what finger wagging, it's super–

Lorien: –easy to give this advice and then I'm gonna go crawl in a hole and beat myself up.

Meg: I know. Well, we all do. We're all just such imaginative–

Lorien: –but I believe in it for other people desperately. I desperately believe other people should do this, and I'm trying so hard to do it for myself, but it's a battle. 

Jeff: Well, I think the truth is if it weren't easy then like everyone would have an Oscar, right? Writing such a weird thing because you can talk about it in terms of craft and fundamentals, but that is so reductive to how hard and nebulous the process actually is.

Meg: That's great art. Great art. Yeah. Always looks super easy. Right? Go to a museum and look at its paintings and you're like, obviously look at, yeah.

Jeff:  I guess that's like the profound irony, right? Is the harder it was to make the more effortless it seems.

Meg: Exactly. That's art. That is art because it has a sense of inevitability that of course it exists in the world. Right. And these are just tools to help you get there.

Lorien: Thank you, Meg, for laying all these out. I wrote them all down too, and I, oh goodness. I just I'll go use them myself this afternoon. It's really good to sort of do this. It's not a map, it's not a how to, it's not a must have. It's, you know, there are tools that we can use to sort of make choices about what we want to prioritize in our writing. Yeah.

Meg: And just ask yourself a question. Do I have stakes? Yes, I do. Are they high enough? How are they evolving? And then just have fun. What could happen that would raise the stakes? What could happen?

Jeff: Well, speaking of raising the stakes if we don't get a thousand Apple Podcast reviews in the next month, we are canceling the show people.

Meg: Oh my God, Jeff, you've been asking for a thousand for so long. Come on, listeners.

Jeff: Well, that's what I'm saying. Maybe there's apathy around my messaging. Like we need to raise the stakes here. You know? Oh, work traffic is pretty bad right now. If I don't get an Apple Podcast review, I'm gonna fling myself in the middle of the road.

No, but in all seriousness if you all don't know, Apple Podcast does aggregate scores and reviews around podcasts. And the reason it's really helpful when you actually go and rate or review a creator of a podcast is because it helps other people find the show. And if you're listening to the podcast right now, I'm guessing that it's helped you in some way.

So to help other people find the show and help other writers, one of the best ways to give back is to go write a review of your own. And we love to read your reviews on air because you all are such fabulous writers. So I'm gonna read a couple Apple Podcast reviews right now. All right. This first one comes from Jelly-88-Belly, who says, portable writing, teacher, buddy, counselor, and shrink.

I'm a working writer in Hollywood, and this podcast is a godsend. Can't tell you how many times I've thought of a question that Meg Lian, or Jeff or even one of the guests has wound up answering. I love that the topics run the gamut from the writing process, working with collaborators, the emotional ups and downs of an artist, tips on how to manage the creative life and on, it's a treasure trove of insight and tools that I return to again and again when I'm stuck or just need a shot of inspiration, I recommend it to all creatives. 

Meg: What a lovely review. Thank you so much for that. Thank you. 

Lorien:Yes, thank you. That's so nice and so awesome and so well written.

Jeff: And then I'm gonna read one more from Land-Cello who said, learn Craft and Career. Just finished episode 18 on voice, and now I see why so many people rave about this podcast. I've heard so many discussions about voice, but this one really nailed it. I've also enjoyed hearing from writers about their writing process as well as their career experiences, and this is definitely a great source for writers.

And no matter where you are in your journey. Thank you for two such lovely reviews and for such specific ways that the show has helped you. It really keeps us motivated to keep doing our best work for all of you and we would just really appreciate it.

Meg: That was lovely. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much you guys. Thanks for those great reviews and thank you guys so much for joining us today on the show. 

Lorien: And check us out on Facebook where you can connect with other writers and ask lots of amazing questions to answer some questions maybe too. And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.