255 | From Finalist to Staffed: How Austin Film Festival Helped Us Break In (ft. Sylvia Batey Alcalá & Mac Smullen)

This week, we’re spotlighting two incredible TV writers whose journeys were meaningfully shaped by the Austin Film Festival.

Sylvia Batey Alcalá (A MAN ON THE INSIDE, PRIMO) and Mac Smullen (SOUVENIR, ALASKA) share how AFF helped get their names out there — building momentum, sparking connections, and opening doors that had long felt closed.

But a festival isn’t the finish line — it’s the starting gate. Sylvia and Mac walk us through the real (and rewarding) work it takes after recognition: rewriting, building reps, pitching, and staying ready for the moment when things start to move.

It’s a candid, thoughtful, and energizing conversation about what breaking in looks like today — and how festivals like AFF can help writers get in the game.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Lorien: Hey everyone. Welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Lorien McKenna, and today we're going to be talking a little bit about the Austin Film Festival, which TSL attends every year, and we will be there again this year. Last year we interviewed feature writers, Alex Conrey and Tate Hanyok, and this year we're gonna be talking with some television writers and how AFF's writer centered approach can help launch real working TV careers.

So today I'm joined by Sylvia Batey Alcalá and Mac Smullen. So Sylvia got her start on the CW's Legacies before pivoting to family drama on Ordinary Joe on NBC and Field of Dreams on UTV. Since then, she's worked in comedy, first as a writer/producer on Mike Schur and Shea Serrano's family comedy Primo on Amazon and Schur's acclaimed mystery/comedy, A Man on the Inside on Netflix. Most recently, Sylvia served as supervising producer on Amazon's upcoming romance Every Year After. And Sylvia is an alum of the Sundance Episodic Lab and the Black List Women in Film Feature Residency. Hello Sylvia, welcome to the show.

Sylvia: Hello. Thank you so much for having me.

Lorien: And Mac Smullen is a writer and filmmaker from New York.

Over the past few years, he's taken projects through the Sundance Labs and IFP’s Film Week, now Gotham Week, won the Austin Film Festival AMC One-Hour Pilot award, and was named one of AFF's 25 Screenwriters to Watch in 2024. And Mac is currently in development with Warner Brothers TV and Netflix on a one-hour horror show he created. Welcome Mac!

Mac: Hello. Nice to be here.

Lorien: I'm super excited to talk to you both and I love that neither of you know each other. And now you're gonna be best friends. Right. Yes.

Mac: And we both went through the Sundance Episodic Story Lab too. Incredible.

Lorien: You didn't cross paths at AFF or Sundance. I kind of love that you're meeting here on The Screenwriting Life.

Sylvia: Yeah, invisible strings.

Lorien: Are you both in New York?

Mac: I am in New York, yes. 

Sylvia: I'm in LA now.

Lorien: But you were?

Sylvia: I was. Yeah.

Lorien: Okay. All right.

And so before we get started chatting about AFF and your careers and your writer being selves we're gonna do Adventures in Screenwriting where we talk a little bit about our week.

So I'll go first. So my week, I got back from Italy on Sunday after I was a mentor at a retreat there in right outside of Arezzo in Tuscany, which is always lovely. I was eaten and alive by mosquitoes, as I mentioned before we got on air. I have never been somebody that mosquitoes come after, so it was a very strange experience.

I suspect it was all the. Wine and pasta in my body. So lesson learned. I had a really great time and I think the thing that stood out the most for me was my first night in Florence, the AC didn't work. And it's about 60 billion degrees in Italy right now in Florence, and it's really humid, which I don't do well with especially being in perimenopause, so like hot flashes or like a constant state of being terrorized.

So the AC didn't work in my hotel room, so I didn't sleep. And I got up around six and I got dressed and I went out around Florence. No one was there, like no one was on the streets. And I got to just walk around Florence by myself in the morning. It was so magical. Like, I've never had an experience like that traveling where I just got to be alone in this gorgeous city, you know?

And later people trickled in and then, you know, it gets really hot and it's just jammed. Like I was on the Ponte Vecchio by myself. Just walking across. And I was like, it felt really special. You know, I paid a price, you know, but I kind of felt like it was such a great metaphor for so much of life, right?

In order to get to that beautiful moment, we have to go through hell.. So I felt like, yeah, that's like being a writer kind of. So yeah, I got home and this week it's been a lot about, the reentry hasn't been that bad. I didn't have jet lag this time, and I have a little work to do, but I'm in that weird space where I'm kind of resisting something.

As if, like, if I get back into it and I really focus on it, and then what if I fail? So I'm having a little bit of that struggle right now where I think it's just better not to do it. Because then I'm safe. I'll do a whole bunch of other things. I mean, look, I have bills to pay and oh, I have an assignment for my therapy.

Like, let's do that. Like that feels creative and, so I have to push through that, I think, and I haven't quite figured out how to do it. I mean, I know what I have to do, which is just get outta my own fucking way and do it right. Like, okay, I'm gonna do it. But, so there is this real resistance and I, I don't know. I don't know. I have to figure it out. So that's my fantastic week. Oh, and I have a 13-year-old and I'm pretty sure she's possessed. So that's a lot of fun. That's a lot of fun. I don't know, like we go from one minute of, look at all the clothes I bought while you were in Italy.

To, "I have nothing to wear!" I'm like, okay. Okay. Buckle up Anyway. Yeah, that was my week. ,

Sylvia: I've been feeling at times like you and at times, like your daughter this week, just ping ponging back and forth. Yes. But but I do find I, I've also been I was like recovering from like a sinus infection that became a double ear infection, which is just so embarrassing as an adult. Oh, no.

But it took longer to bounce back from than I expected. And then once I was kind of up and about, I was also experiencing resistance toward writing. And I kind of was like, oh, maybe I just need another day at rest. Still so unwell. And I it's been going for a while for me, and I think I, what actually ended up being like really unexpectedly helpful I write with a partner sometimes and he also is experiencing this, and so we like scheduled a meeting and then.

Both of us were like, all right, well, we met up now what? I don't wanna do it, but we're here.

And what we ended up doing was we each pulled out our phone and looked at, we each maintain our own, like, running list of ideas. And so we just went through the list until we found one of 'em that both of us were Ugh, fine.

So we approached it with like, that level of enthusiasm and just kind of started poking at it. And then like three hours later, we've got like this beat sheet and we're brainstorming titles. And he's texting me all day today about like, okay, what about this? What about that? And I'm like, no, let's, you know, I wanna get into like character bias.

Like I really wanna get, you know, get into it. And it was like just so encouraging honestly, to be reminded that can happen and that even if, you know, I sit down with a stank attitude about it. Yeah. Like it can still work out. And it was one of those things it was just a nice reminder also.

because I think as writers, we all know you can't just like rely on inspiration to like show up. But because we both had our list, like our past inspiration backlog was still accessible and we were able to jump into the things that were exciting about that idea, you know, at least enough to write it down and add it to a list.

And so it's almost like our we had like inspiration credit logged away that we were able to just cash in. That was really yeah. That's wonderful.

Lorien: I love that. I think that's a good idea. I need some of that like external, it's funny because I have a pilot I've written with someone and he is like, when are we gonna finish?

When are we gonna finish? I'm like, sure. I call it take like an hour to go over the polish notes that we have and I'm like yeah. Any minute now. So I just need to like knock it off and be a professional. Yeah. Cool. So good note. I appreciate that. I do not have a running list, that's why I forget half the things I'm working on, but you know, it's fine in my world.

Sylvia: Yeah, it's a good thing as long as you like write the actual idea. because half of my list is shorthand that I was sure I would remember. That makes no sense. Yes.

Lorien: I have a project called Duck Boat that haunts me that when I dreamt about it I was like, this is the best idea I've ever had. And then I wrote, you know I wrote, caught up and wrote down in the middle of the night and it was like duck boat.

And I'm like, one day I am gonna crack buck duck boat. One day I am. I don't know what it is. I don't know. What if it's a kid story or like a horror cruise movie? I don't know. One day the duck butt can duck butt. It could be duck butt. Maybe that was the problem. I wrote it down wrong. Anyway. Mac, how was your week?

Mac: My week was all right. I would, it was nothing quite as exciting as cavorting around Florence, like getting eaten by mosquitoes, of course. But no, it wa it was good. And I also to relate to the backlog of ideas that you should always keep handy, you know, just in case, just for those moments when you're feeling particularly blocked, particularly like, because that feeling of even just you talking about that feeling of like the dam breaking and you starting to be like, oh, I'm excited again.

Oh my God. Is such a incredible, thrilling moment. I didn't have any of those moments this week, unfortunately. But I have been working this week. In addition to dealing with the horrible, intense heat wave that we've been having in New York, and the, which finally today seems to have broken.

But in addition to just being generally sweaty and humid all week I was getting a pitch together for a new TV project that I'm taking out and going through it. Just a thousand times and going back and forth with producers and fine tuning and, you know, timing, myself, I must have said it like 10 times, 20 times I've lost track, you know, of just like hitting that stopwatch, clocking myself you know, picturing the eyes starting to glaze over, et cetera, et cetera.

So yeah, that, that was, that's been my week. It's it's been fun to a certain, because you get to a degree with the material and the idea that you, it's like you're refining your refining and it's like, oh my God. It's starting to get to that juicy little nugget that like, is gonna really like, start making execs mouths water or whatever.

So that's exciting. But it is like a lot of drudgery of course, as I'm sure you guys know. Yeah. So that's been my week.

Lorien: That's great. I'm gonna take what you just said about the pitch and have my husband listen to it because I'm also working on a pitch. And he'll be like, I thought you were done.

I'm like, well, no, I'm not done. He said, well, you keep saying you're gonna finish it. And I'm like, I am finishing it, but like I get an idea and then I'm like, oh, well I'm gonna actually open my pitch with the first scene of the pilot because it just captures the character and the world and it's so dynamic and it just, everything.

And so that changes everything right? Then that then I have to rearrange everything. How I'm gonna tell the pilot through the course of the character introductions, or do I save it to the end? Like, and I'm not breaking it, I'm making it better, but he's like, I don't get it. And I'm like, but then here's the thing, then I have to pitch it, practice it, get feedback, get that producer I want attached.

Pitch it, practice it, refine it, then take it out. If it sells six more months, then I get the contract signed and done. So like, let's just simmer down about like what me finishing this pitch actually means. Like, it's not like, you know, I'm not gonna get paid tomorrow. So, but he doesn't understand the development process, which is frustrating.

Mac: Right. I'm sure. Sounds very frustrating.

Lorien: Yeah. And so I, which I am baffled by it because I've been in this industry for so long, so it's like, okay sweetie. And he's an artist too, so I'm always like, I don't get what you don't get. But I love that you said that because I really am gonna be like, after the show, Jeff, send me the clip of Mac's statement so that Brian gets it.

Anyway.

Mac: Happy to do it.

Lorien: Oh, thank you so much. And Sylvia, you've pitched right? You take pitches out too. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So, you know, it's a specific TV thing. And, okay, so how Mac, how many minutes is your pitch?

Mac: Oh my God. Currently, my pitch, just my little part is 23 minutes and I want it to be shorter.

Lorien: I shoot for 15 to 18.

Mac: Yeah. That's the range for a goal going for.

Lorien: Yeah. It's hard though to pick, to pull out how spec you have to get specific in some parts, but then you have to get, like I've left out whole relationships when they're like, well, what about the families? I'm like, oh yeah, they're in it.

Exactly. And here's the part they'll play. If there, you know, it's like I can't pitch a whole, like, whole world.

Mac: That's, yeah. That's the, that is the push pull of it. Because of course, as the writer, as the creator, you're like, I could talk about this for like th four hours and like get into all of the nitty gritty of it and trust me, I've thought it all out.

But they're like, well, if you could really break it down for us in 15 minutes, that would be great.

Lorien: Yes. And then they start, then the producers sometimes who are wonderful will be like, well, we need more specifics about this relationship. And you'd be like, well, I do that, then I break all of this. So it's fun.

Yeah. Yes. Actually, I love pitching more than anything though, I have to say. I mean, I love the writing and being on a show and all the things, but I find this process so exciting because it's like you're, you can change, help the world discover the world. So it's super fun. It's, and then

Sylvia: Also I will say like, the Writer's Guild Committee of Women Writers last week did the Pitches That Sold webinar..

Right. And those are great. It was wonderful. And both of them they very deliberately got things that had sold post-strike. And for what it's worth, they both timed in it almost exactly 25 minutes. Which interesting. Honestly, probably encouraged me far too much.

Lorien: Was it one person, was it one person pitching or multiple?

Sylvia: One of them was one person and the other was a team.

Lorien: Okay. Because I find the Zoom meetings that I get scheduled are half an hour.

Sylvia: Oh my gosh. Wow. Including for like,

Lorien: chitchat, pitch. Go.

Sylvia: Wow. That's just not even me.

Lorien: That's just me.

Mac: That's tight. That's tight. They must know that you know what you're doing.

That must be it. Yeah.

Lorien: Well, no. They're like, okay, that's a half an hour. I'm like, alright, here we go. There's no small talk. Right. There's the, you show up how we here, the producer loves me. I love the producer. I love the IP. Here's my pitch. And then two or three questions and then I'm lucky if they don't turn their zooms off anyway.

It's different. I like pitching for features is I don't know when I've done that, it feels less. Feels a little less. because it's so specific. Right? You're going beginning, middle, in and end. You're like, here's the whole story.

Mac: Yeah.

Lorien: It's a lot of work. A lot of work. You're basically writing a whole movie.

To then pitch it, to pull it back into like a very concise react presentation. Sometimes with tv it's such a huge possibility and it's so hard to figure out like, okay, am I introducing that character in the pilot part of the pitch, or am I gonna hold that back for season two? It's like, it's a little more unwieldy. because it has to go on and on. Even if it's an episodic where you're not dealing as much with character development, you still have to think season to season. You still have to come up with episode examples that, you know, anyway. It's just different. It's not harder, it's just different.

A different brain work. Yeah. And you guys have both worked in features, right? Have you? Yes. Yeah.

Mac: Yeah. Yes.

Lorien: Dabbled, you've –

Mac: Dabbled is the right word.

Lorien: Anyway, I just think that's so different, which is why I was excited to have you both on to talk from A FF perspective. Like there's the feature part of AFF, and then there's the TV part, which since I'm mostly in tv, that's the most interaction I have with the writers who wanna come up and talk to me and.

What, where were you in your career when you applied for AFF and what made you interested in that, Sylvia?

Sylvia: So the first, so I have been to AFF several times. I was a finalist in 2014 in Comedy pilot and then in 2020 in Drama Spec. And so in 2014 it was actually the first pilot I had ever written, and it was one of those things that I kind of just thought this is a thing that people who are interested in this seem to be doing on the internet.

I love that. Yeah. Yeah. There's a writer Kian Kim who had maybe still has a blog that talked a lot about the contest and that sort of thing, which, you know, back in the day was, there weren't as many resources for that sort of thing. So I was like, okay, this is the thing that I'll do. And then if you are a finalist, you are given a free producer badge.

So I was like, oh, of course I will attend in person. And that was just a really great experience for me because my, all of my arts training is in performance. I don't have any writing background. And so for me, going to Austin and I went in 14, 15, 16 and then 2020 was the online COVID year. But going to Austin and listening to the panels was for me, a lot of my, like, very formative education in how to approach screenwriting.

Like I had read all the main books and you know, read a lot of scripts, but I was, it was there that I, you know, I saw Craig Mazin do the, structure talk. I think that was one of the first times Michael Arnt was workshopping the endings. Good, bad, insanely great. And so the opportunity to like hear things like that, that were so granular about such specific topics was for me, really kind of, my entry level education into screenwriting in general.

Lorien: That's fab. And then how did you leverage your experience there into being a TV writer? Or did you, or like how did that happen?

Sylvia: I didn't, I feel like I did in that finaling with the first thing I ever wrote made me feel unstoppable, which was like the type of naivete that I needed to continue for the then seven years until I got staffed.

Lorien: Yeah, I mean I sold the first TV show I pitched and then I. I'm amazing. I'm a TV writer, womp womp let's see what happens next.

Sylvia: Yeah, exactly. And so, like, I do feel like what it did for me in terms of morale and self-image of accepting the idea that I can, you're a writer, I can do this, I'm a writer was like really huge for me. And I think that if there is anything I leveraged the most, other than the education, honestly it's the relationships with my peers that I met at the festival. I think I still am close friends and in the same reading circles as people who I met standing in line for panels or just like loitering at the Driskell or whatever.

So, I think those relationships have continued to be really important just in terms of creating community. But also I think my development as a writer into a person who could become a TV writer, in large part because I had so much support from my writer community, and so much of those people are from people I know from Austin.

Lorien: That's awesome. Mac, what about you?

Mac: Yeah, I, you know, I come from a film school background you know, kind of, of the run and gun, you know, I was obsessed with, you know, all of the nineties indie American kind of filmmakers and that whole scene, and that was kind of what I was hoping to, you know, get going for my career.

You know, but one of the things I realized is you have to have some money in order to create your own.

Lorien: You're talking like, you watch Swingers and you were like, yeah, that's, that, is that what happened?

Mac: More of the like Jim Jarmusch, Spike Lee. Yeah. Okay. I got it. Cetera. I got it.

Lorien: I got a handle on it. I got it. Okay.

Mac: But of course, who hasn't been inspired by Swingers? No, I, you know, so I too sort of was like, oh, what's a good way, what's an easy, easier way, an easier way to break into this industry? I'd always wanted to write and you know, I had sort of always thought, well, you know, the stuff I write is kind of strange and I don't know how marketable, et cetera.

But I did find these competitions when you're, when you have no. Connection to the industry, and you have no ins and you have no, like, there's nowhere for you to go. You know? You can't, nobody's gonna just take your unsolicited email and or script. So, you know, you look for these outlets to find, and yeah, I had you know, I had gone through the Sundance Episodic Story Lab in 2015 or 2016 with like you guys were saying, the first pilot script that I had written, and I just showed up and I was like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna sell this thing.

This could be great. You know, and that was a wonderful experience with a lot of mentors who took me down a little bit of a peg, you know, trying to temper my expectations and they were right too. You know, and I was trying to get staffed for a long time. On the back of that, but I had you know, Austin was always on my radar as just has one of the greatest reps out there for screenwriting in general.

And, you know, the competition of course, and like, if you really break down the numbers, I personally, I think it still is kind of the most repre, reputable, and prestigious place that you can submit pilot scripts to. Because people, you know, other competitions like the Nicholl and stuff are more focused on features, which I totally understand.

But you know, when you're. Trying to dig down into pilots like the, you're, it's a little bit more limited. I think a lot of these places have kind of opened it up because there's some good submission fees there for you, but but, you know, I think Austin ha you know, still has this reputation of being able to kind of break people and, you know, get careers started.

And I went for the first time in 2021 when I was a finalist in the AMC one hour pilot award category. I did not win. I submitted another script the following year and I was all a finalist again. Okay. Went back this time I did win. Woo, congratulations. Which, yes, which was thrilling and wonderful.

But it. And it was, you know, you as part of this, you get to like meet with some A MC people and you get to, you know, there, there was some nice ancillary things. But you know, one of the things I wasn't even expecting was a manager. Read my script and got in touch with me and said, you know, I would love to rep you and you know, I think we can sell this thing and.

He gave me the hard sell. He was like, all, you got a weekend to decide.

Lorien: Oh my God, really?

Mac: He did to his credit because I decided to go with him in his you know, his pressuring worked out for both of us, is what I could say. Okay. Yes. And he's,

Lorien: I mean, it's true with green writers, like, make a choice, do it. Don't just develop your answer.

Mac: A hundred percent. And yes and he is still my manager to this day. And yeah we ended up taking out that project and it, it ended up selling.

Lorien: That's awesome. Yeah. So, and what about you and the community aspect of it? Did you find a similar.

Mac: Yes, absolutely.

Lorien: Or are you just a loner and you're like, nobody talked to me, I'm pretty famous.

Mac: No. I would never no. I was I had, I was like more of the, I'm a loner attitude when I was totally unsuccessful. But no I would agree that one of the beautiful things about Austin is that it is so kind of open and it is so, you know, yes, you could have a conversation with, you know, your favorite showrunner at the Driskell or whatever, but you also, perhaps more importantly, there's a lot of fellow writers out there who are, you know, invaluable resources to you depending on, especially depending on like where you are in your writing career and what you need out of, you know, sounding boards and stuff like that.

I mean, you know, if you don't have people who you can send material to who know anything about screenwriting you're gonna get a lot of. You know, you're gonna get a lot of uninformed reactions to your material, which can be helpful in a lot of ways. And, you know, but it's not always the most helpful.

No. So I would agree that like the community that they do a lot of work to foster over there, I think is like one of the biggest selling points of the festival. Yeah.

Lorien: Yeah. I have the most fun there. Just talking to people. Yeah. I love it when people come up to me and they show me their badge and they say, I'm a second finalist.

I'm like, second rounder. Like, I have no idea what that means, but they seem wildly excited about it. So I'm like, congratulations. Like I, I have a hard time clicking. I'm like, okay, I don't, it doesn't matter. You can come up and talk to me even if you're not, I don't like, it's just like, like it's a ticket somehow.

And I'm like, okay, great.

Sylvia: And like. Honestly I feel like, at least for me at the time, like I was someone who kind of perceived myself as socially awkward and it was hard for me to just like start a conversation with like whomever. And one of the great things about Austin is, number one, you already have a lot in common just because of the fact of being there, but then it's on someone's badge.

Like what? You can just, you're totally right. Oh, you have a short film in the festival. That's so great. Can you tell me about it? And like, weirdly, I found in addition to like the genuine friendships I made, I also kind of, got, I hate to say practice, but I did feel like as someone who at the time felt just very uncomfortable, especially in big group settings, which there are a lot of in Austin, but the fact of just the distillation of interest by virtue of everyone being there made it so much easier to talk to people.

And I think that's something that as a writer, you do need to be able to talk to people. As it turns out, it does. And I found that like, those, I don't know, it just it was such a like, soft entry into soft skills for me.

Lorien: That's awesome. No, I really like that perspective does be like, oh, connecting over that.

Like, because on the badge it says like, what you won or what you qualified for. And so it's a fun talking point, I guess. See, I love a new perspective. Are you an optimist? Is that your worldview? I don't know. Generous. You're generous. A generous person. Definitely. Oh, thank you. Do, I don't know, I haven't diagnosed you yet.

We'll move on. Yeah. Okay. So do you have any advice for people who are planning to go to AFF? Because here's my advice. If you have curly hair, bring lots of products because it is sometimes rainy, sometimes humid, sometimes it's just frizzy. It is frizzy weather in Texas in October. So that's my advice.

Just or find where your drugstore are and buy all the products. because it is mayhem on your curly hair. There you go.

Sylvia: That's, well, you took my advice. So now I dunno what I'm gonna, what I'm gonna do.

Lorien: What is your practical advice for people going to Austin? And I really mean like, make sure you go to this event or go to this party on, you know, they not have all those parties and I ended up sitting out at the Driskell on Friday night. And then TSL usually has a party at the. What's that? The other hotel, Steven Austin. We have a big party. Bar up there, so I don't have to go to the other parties. But what are your guys' advice, like how to make the most out of your AFF experience?

Mac: I'll go first. Yeah, you go. Yeah. No I think I mean, one of the things I always tried to do was prepare, like, know what's going, like what's gonna happen. Know the schedule, know the kind of, know the faces that you're, like, interested in getting to, maybe getting a, having a conversation with, having a drink with whatever, you know, kind of make yourself at least like a little mental list of those people that are, you know, because you're not gonna run into all of 'em, definitely.

And in fact, they're probably not gonna end up being the people that, you know, are going to move the needle for you or whatever, in the way that you're hoping. But at least, like, if you have that, you know, you can kind of go in being like, well, okay, even if I don't, you know, meet other people or whatever I'm looking forward to meeting these people.

I would say like, don't. You know, pace yourself is another thing I would say people. I always end up doing a lot of drinking when I'm at the Austin Film Festival.

Lorien: Hydrate. Yes. Hydrate is big. Make you eat.

Mac: Yes. There's a lot of very long days. If you're trying to get the most outta the festival, you know, a lot of waking up early in the morning and, you know, partying into the night.

So definitely, yeah. Pace yourself hydrate would be definitely. Advice. I'm trying to think of anything else. I don't know. I. Sylvia, what do you got?

Sylvia: Weirdly, when you said prepare, what I just wrote down was that it, it sounds so obvious, but genuinely check the weather before you go. I think people are like, it's Texas, ergo it'll be hot.

Yeah. And I mean, I think at least two years I've gone, there have been like flash floods and just cool torrential downpours and I not having checked the weather was just there in like my sandals and, you know, holding a piece of trash over my head as I like, you know, ran down.

Lorien: It's like San Francisco. Yeah. Everyone thinks like, oh, it's California. I'm like no. Yeah. No, it's San Francisco. It's much different. Yeah. Yes.

Sylvia: And then I think also in the vein of prep, but like, in terms of preparing for the events, you wanna attend a lot of them. Have a Q&A period at the end. And I think if there is someone or a subject that is particularly important to you, coming in with a specific question I think is very helpful and can illuminate subjects of discussion that maybe otherwise wouldn't have been open.

I feel like at least once a day at A FF someone stands up at the, in the q and a and says, do you have any advice for someone trying to break in? And generally the advice is like, well, writers write. And network. And it's not especially compelling information in a lot of cases. But I think if, you know, if there's a, I remember I had a lovely conversation with Paul Feig based on a question I asked him, which was about his choice to use the theme from Ghostbusters at a specific moment in the Ghostbusters film.

And then that became like a lobby conversation and. It helped me just think about the way music is used in comedy, and it was just so something that I kind of never would've gotten to otherwise. And when else would I, you know, would whatever, 2018 or whatever. Sylvia have been able to ask him that question only at AFF.

And so I think like the prep comes in also, if you are attending a round table, I think this is very important because you then, that's a setting where it's whatever, five or six participants from the festival and then a speaker who is a writer or an exec or an agent or a manager or whatever their area of expertise is.

And I think if you are at a round table, that's an opportunity to really get into specific subjects. This is how I ended up having Steven Falk explain to me what a line producer was, because I was like, how do you get a job as an assistant? He was like, talk to the line producer. And I was like, please go on.

And that was really helpful information because everyone at the table will have wanted to know the same thing. How do you get those jobs? So I think coming in with like, what is your perspective on the things you're attending is very important.

Lorien: I think that's great advice. I've been the speaker who's at the round tables before and I've had a couple where they just sit down and stare at me and I'm like, okay what do you guys wanna talk about?

Like one? I was like, okay we're just gonna, so I just went around the table and broke everyone's story process down. What are you working on? What problems are you having? All right, here's your assignment. I just went all the way through around because it was like, well I didn't know, they didn't come with any questions.

I had a delightful time and I think everybody did. And they came back later and like the next year and told me all the progress they'd made on the progress. So I feel like I had impact, but like it wasn't. Which was fine, but I, it would've been, I think the purpose is come and ask questions. But you know, the thing is too, is not everyone knows who I am or what I've done or what information I might have.

So some people are just sitting down because they wanted to talk to someone else in that session. And then they sit down with me and I'm like, okay. I am gonna make everyone uncomfortable and vulnerable. Here we go.

Mac: Right? Yeah. Last year, I, they I went back to the festival last year and they, and I did a, I too did a round table.

Being the person and Yes. It's a very bizarre experience. Yeah. Where, you know, people are like, and wait, who are you to me? I know. I know. Okay. Well, I've got some questions I guess, but Yeah. And Sylvia, what you said about having a good question, like totally great advice. You know, just even as somebody who's like sitting there in the audience, I can tell you the number of times I've been like, oh my God, what a dumb question.

I can't believe somebody just asked that. And you've only got so much time with these people, you know? So I, I think like coming in with a great question can absolutely be a conversation starter for a another conversation you have when you approach them later. It gives you the opportunity, the space, the sort of like, oh, well, we've already had a little, you know, a little interaction.

I was the person who asked you that great interesting question earlier. You know, you, let's talk more. I too have had that experience, and I think it's a great way to go at it.

Lorien: All right, so let's talk about writing. Here we go. How do you introduce your main characters when you're writing a pilot? That will be a spec, like a sample. What is the way you grab your audience and make sure your character introduction is powerful? If that's how you approach your, how do you introduce main character in a, like a spec sample or a pilot that you're being paid to write? I get that same thing, right?

Mac: Yeah. I mean, this is a tough question. I mean, I, you know, personally, I think. People respond to action. Absolutely. Like have, introduce your main character, doing something that is definitive for them. And it's not just about, you know, describing what they're wearing and the, like, the little look on their face or whatever.

And introducing a character the moment you only get that one moment, you know, to introduce a character who theoretically, you know, is gonna be so interesting in TV that you wanna spend, you know, hours and like days of your time with this person. And I think, yeah, I don't, it's something that I still struggle with, but I think that for me it is all about like what they're doing and how that defines them as a character and how that can immediately kind of click with an audience to know.

Okay. I get it. I know who this person is, I like them. I'm interested. They're kind of cool. Let's see what they're doing next. Like that is like all you could do, I think. Right?

Lorien: So easy. Yeah. Sylvia? Yeah. Like that?

Sylvia: Yeah. I tend to I mean, I do always try to introduce them with a moment that encapsulates something about them.

Ideally encapsulates them or their essence. I also find that for me, I had never thought about this until you asked this question. I've been kind of rolling through my brain. I actually, once I'm actually sitting down and typing and I've broken the story and I know what the moment is and I know what the opening scene is.

I also spend a lot of time on the opening shot. And what the first visual is on the page, because I do feel like I. In success, there is a direct correlation between the visual story and who that character is. And it doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, she's Barbie, so it's pink. In that case it works very well, but it doesn't always have to be that one-to-one.

It can be a landscape that tells us something about where this character's emotional journey might go, for example. But I do think I really try and drill down on who are they and what are they going through, and am I telling that from the very first thing that the reader sees when they watch the show of their mind and then extrapolate that out into the moment when we actually see the character and interact with them.

Lorien: Yeah I'm, I've never done, well I mentioned at the beginning, I'm writing this pitch with it's a show and it's format. I haven't written it before, and so I. I really wanted to set like tone genre world character, the kickoff of the pilot. because I don't like to write ex like, it's like it's happening right now.

And this is the pilot and off we go. This, the inciting incident is in the first like minute of the pilot there. Off we go through character choices. And I realized I had to, I building it now. So it's the first thing I pitch. And that for me, once I figured that out was like, ah, right. It's introducing her world, her choices, it sets the whole show in motion, her in the world.

And I was like, I figured it out and now, you know, I just have to rewrite the rest of it. But I, we asked this question of people on the show and I didn't have an answer for myself until I figured out for this particular show that's what's gonna be, because it's action, it's, you know, I want it to be a little violent.

I want, you know, I have to show certain things so that you watch that first two minutes and you're like, okay, I'm in, or I'm out. So I have to be really clear about what it is. No hedging. And so that's, I've been then applying that to other things I'm doing, which I've been found really powerful. And it's just like, okay, if I just watched these two minutes, would I be able to know what the show is about?

And hopefully yes. But I, you know, and I've been writing for a long time and I'm still sort of trying to figure this out. So like, I as everything, right? I mean, if you guys know the answers, please tell me.

Mac: No, I, everything you're describing extremely difficult. Like everything that we've just talked about very hard to do, I think personally.

Lorien: So hopefully I get to come back at the WGA thing and say, here's the pitch that sold. Yeah. That's how I sold it, right? That's my dream. My other dream is to get picketed by something I've written ooh, by like the West Bureau Baptist, you know, like so offensive to the people that are diametrically opposed to my belief system.

I would find that to be a great success,

it's negative reinforcement. I'm very much into anyway, I'll write that character later. Okay. I'll write that character later.

Sylvia: You know, that actually does remind me of something. Can I circle back to AFF really quick? Yes, please. One other thing that I found very helpful was I spur of the moment decided to participate in the pitch competition that they have.

Lorien: Is it the 90 second one?

Sylvia: Yes. And I had no preparation, so I had, you know, had to throw it together that day. But it's something that I think I, I felt like I really learned a lot from pitching. They do a a small group session with all the participants before it begins, and I felt like even just the execs talking about their perspective on pitching and that was very helpful.

But also I. Seeing all the finalists do their pitches, which is done in a way that it's like more like standup, like it's in a bar, they're on a stage, there's a microphone. There's like an American Idol panel of judges who are getting, like, it's not how a real pitch goes. However, you can still see all of the elements of what makes a great pitch and they're all back to back.

And they're so fast and it's one of those things that's also you're just like, oh my God, I can't believe, for me at least, I just couldn't believe all those people like qualified to be there. I was like, you are all amateurs. This is insanity. I want to buy and watch all of these shows immediately.

But I think for people who wanna learn about pitching, I think one of the best resources Austin has is participating in the pitch competition. But even if that's not something where people wanna throw their hat in, I do think attending it is a really great learning opportunity.

Lorien: We did a whole podcast with someone from A FF and Sheila Hanahan Taylor and several volunteers who said, here's my idea.

And then Sheila, who's, you know, the producer of Final, the Final Destination movies and like, super amazing, we went through all the pitches with them

And gave notes to sort of figure out how to do a 90 second pitch of a movie, a TV show. So that was really eyeopening for me. And it's all character.

Character.

You start with character. You know, I think we forget that we get very caught up in our, the ideas and stuff. I think that's great advice. And again, it's to your point, Mac, which is like prioritize pace yourself because there's a lot going on that night.

Mac: Oh yeah. 

Lorien: That Saturday night. Yeah.

Mac: Yeah. I've only been a spectator to the pitch competition and it's intimidating is what I would say.

Lorien: Very intimidating. Well, I love it because I didn't have to do anything and Meg was judging it, so I was like, I'm cool. I'll have another drink.

This is great. But yeah, it's amazing what people are able to put together and it's like a log line. It's this mysterious gift Yeah. That you have to practice. Oh. It's not a gift. It's you practice and hone and develop it. So, I love it. I learn a lot when I go there and sometimes I sit in panels and I get to talk to great writers and made a lot of great friends there.

I've made some mistakes while I've been there, like. Drinking maybe one too many. One time I flew directly from Italy to AFF and I, everyone thought I was drunk. I was like, Nope, just jet lag. So, you know, pace yourself unlike what I did. Okay, so character introduction. So what is your process when you're writing and when you're paid, when you're hired or you sell a show, you have to do the story area and the outline, and you have all these checks.

But when you're writing something on your own, do you outline? Be honest. because sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. And I always am in a bad place when I don't. And yet I still try. So what is your process? Mac, oh, Sylvia, go ahead.

Sylvia: I do outline pretty in, in a fair amount of detail and I'm, as much as that feels like.

Creatively eating my broccoli. It is important to me because I spent maybe a year like writing and rewriting this one feature because I auditioned every avenue by writing it as a feature. And I ended up, I've probably written 10 versions of this same general story with the same protagonist who has the same journey.

And I'm, it was a good experience and I learned, and also the main thing I learned was, figure it out generally before getting into it. Also, because by going down all those avenues in such detail, I ended up writing a bunch of stuff that I was loathed to say goodbye to, and that ended up kind of gumming up the works.

So for me, I'm very macro to micro.

Lorien: You mean like you wrote a draft and then you had these scenes you loved, and then when you were going to rewrite it to make it structurally function, more efficiently, you were like, I can't let go of those scenes. Is that what

Sylvia: Yeah, so then I would try and back the story into a scene that I liked instead of just telling the story that made the most sense for the character and what I was trying to accomplish

Lorien: That has never happened to me, ever. I mean, never. I'll just be like, well, that's a different movie and then I'll go write that one. Yeah.

Sylvia: Yeah. So I definitely macro to micro, for me it's usually board with cards or a notes app with notes outline. Iterate, ideate the outline many times. And then once I am on script, it's like off to the races and I'm having the time of my life.

Lorien: So when you're writing to script, are you sticking with the outline even if you find places where it wobbles?

Sylvia: No. No. I think there are things that you can, I often, for me at least, I only discover in execution. And for me, often the, ironically because of what I just said, but the thing that most often culminates is scenes being cut because I had too many and that's, this was unnecessary.

And it turns out that's not important. And what has emerged as the most important thing to support the through line of this journey is not that at all. And so it has to go which is much easier to cut a scene I have not yet written than the opposite.

Lorien: Awesome. Okay. Awesome. What about you?

Mac: I well, it sounds like Sylvia does exactly what you're supposed to do is what I would say.

I, and I'm a little bit more like you, Lorien, where I it depends for me, definitely. I'm a big structure guy in general, so I do like to outline when that's kind of the avenue that is like, interesting and attractive to me and creatively inspiring. But I also I'm, I have the horrible habit of just like, all right, I'm going like now.

We'll see what happens next. Maybe you know, I do like to have a general I don't really like even start. Writing a thing until I have like a general shape of it in my head at least if I have not gotten it all down on the cards, on the board, et cetera. Which are completely helpful.

And honestly, that's probably how I should do everything in a perfect world if I wasn't allowing myself to follow the inspiration quote unquote. But yeah I think it, for me it depends, and it depends on how I. Just how kind of, in the characters and in the world of the thing I am, you know, and if I feel like I'm very kind of close and I know exactly kind of what the characters' emotions and their head space and their decision making, et cetera, I is sort of based around, it's a lot easier for me to like not go in with the outline and just sort of be like, well, I know these characters, I know the story.

I kind of know where it's gonna go and let's like have a little fun as we're writing, getting there. Right. That does not always work out. And I have 100% gotten, you know, halfway through projects being like, oh shit, wait a minute. Now what happens?

Lorien: Always at the midpoint, isn't it?

Mac: Yes, exactly.

Lorien: Always halfway through and you're like, shit.

Yeah. We had Liz Feldman on the show, you know, brilliant showrunner, wonderful woman. And I was saying like, I can't get through this pilot. So she goes. Did you write an outline? And I was like, no. She's like, well, maybe that's why you got stuck halfway through.

And I was like, well, it's lovely to be called out on my own podcast. Thank you so much. But she was right. I had just, I thought I could figure it out. because I know structure. I feel it. But I was, it wasn't a sophisticated enough layout of up to the midpoint. Like I, I sort of gunning, you know, freewheeling, it meant.

It just wasn't working. So one of the things in Italy that we had this retreat, these two wonderful producers came over and it was just for the writers, but I jumped into the, I'm a writer, so I was like, I can do it. He was talking about pitching like the five minute pitch or like, what's your story about?

And the format of that. And he had this analogy and it was like, you're on a freeway and there's different signs that are gonna come up. Like the world's biggest ball of yarn is five miles ahead. Then have you ever seen the world's biggest ball Don't miss out? Right. Like, as you're going down. And I thought for me, that was such a great way to think about pitching and structure and to keep yourself on the, like, what is the narrative drive of my main character?

Instead of like, Ooh, this is fun or this is fun. It was like even without an outline laying out just the scenes where your main character has to make a clear choice each time. Am I gonna stay on the road and go to the ball yarn or am I gonna go off? And so for me it was just such a powerful visual, like, I gotta stay on the road.

I gotta get to the ball of yarn, which is such a strange thing, but it was so simple. It really felt like, oh, I can do that. And I can do that by doing like a really clear, like here are my six signs that lead up to the ball of yarn that I have to stay on for a pitch or for, you know, rough like, you know, Michael Arnt's pillars, you know, inciting incident break into two.

That felt, I was like, okay, I could do that. I wish I could draw. because then I draw myself with the signs ahead. Anyway, I was just passing on that brilliant piece of wisdom I stole from someone else. But I

Mac: I love that. I love, yeah. I love talking about the, because there is so this crazy broad range of pitching that you do in your career as a writer of like, there's the elevator pitch, like where you're given the log line and then there's like the five minute pitch, and then there's the 15 minute pitch.

It's like, yeah. The, and it's, you have to do sort of different things for each of them, but they all can kind of, they all can kind of point you in the right direction of like, oh, this is what my show is really about.

Lorien: Yes. Yeah. The ball of yarn. What is the Yes, exactly. Ball of yarn, right.

Sylvia: Think also like with pitching, I think what you're saying also can be applied like texturally to a pitch sometimes when you say, and that's our midpoint twist, and then the execs go, ah, we're halfway to the ball of yarn. And like you can keep your listener oriented totally where you are. 

Lorien: You're halfway there, right? You always get that like the Anderson Pea soup. You're two miles away. It's like, well I can't wait to get there. Although I think that's closed now. I know.

Sylvia: I think so too. And I'm like, it's my fault for having never stopped when I saw those signs.

Lorien: So many times I have stopped and that was also my fault. I just wanna say maybe I liked it anyway. Okay. So is there anything else about AFF that you feel like you wanna talk about or share? Do's and don'ts. My don'ts are don't fly from Italy and expect to be coherent on your presentations. Although I think I was pretty much, I dunno. We'll see. Yeah. What are your don'ts?

Mac: I would say –

Lorien: I can't handle business. When people gimme a business card, I'm like, that's a good one. You're inviting me to do work to contact you. Please don't do that. Now I feel guilty and I'm not like. Like, I'm not that easy to get a hold of. I'm not that hard to get a hold of. Like, you do the work, don't give me an assignment.

Mac: I would agree. Business cards. Yes. In a, you know, in, in the past, perhaps the best way to do it, but I would agree that in the current day it does feel like giving somebody extra work.

Lorien: And I have social media every, like, it's, yeah. Just follow someone on whatever. Anyway. Okay. Sorry, I interrupted. Go ahead.

Mac: No, that's okay. I don't, you know, I sort of would say like, don't go in with a preconceived notion of what it's gonna be and what you're gonna achieve and what you are gonna get out of it. Like, don't do that. 

Lorien: Don't be attached to the outcome, which is. A writer's mantra, right. As our, so yeah, that's pretty solid.

Mac: Yes. I, yeah, because I think it's easy, as I said, you should prepare and you should be thinking about all the possibilities that are there for you. But then once you've done that preparation, be like, you know what, we'll see what happens.

Because I think it's very easy to, like, especially in that environment where it's so busy and you are, you know, you, whether or not you're drinking, you're tired. It's so easy to get like, oh no. And the, you know, now the, you know, AFF is like halfway over and I've only, you know, had this many conversations and I've only done this or that.

I think the experience itself kind of try to let it wash over you as much as you can with the preparation that you've done. Because I think, yeah, it and you know, it's for not, you know, not everybody has all the money in the world and it's not always the you know, the easiest thing to lay that money out to go out there and get a hotel and, you know, it's I and the badges and all that.

So I think, you know, I think not pinning too much hopes on it while also, you know – 

Lorien: Being realistic I guess is kind of what I think the subtext in that too, is don't expect to get repped and don't expect to sell what you've brought, even if you've won. That's not how these things generally work.

Mac: That is correct.

Lorien: I mean, Mac, it worked for you. Obviously.

Mac: It did amazingly, and I can tell you that when it did work that way for me, I was not expecting it to work that way. Right. I was fully, yeah. I was not expecting that outcome. Yeah.

Lorien: What do you think Sylvia?

Sylvia: I mean, I think, like contrary to all of our shared lore, I, I do feel like I should say don't feel pressured to drink if that's not your thing.

Lorien: No, I was thinking about that. We talked about alcohol so much.

Sylvia: Like, yeah. And I think that is like part of the, because the Driskell Bar is a place where people meet and gather and talk about the thing they just did. And the events for the most part are in the Driskell,. The Intercontinental and the Steven.

So these are all hotels. They all have bars and there are, you know, it's also, you know, Texas and there's like barbecue and beer –

Lorien: But it is a professional environment. It's still professional. And the one year I went, I didn't drink at all. I just had club soda. Like I –

Sylvia: yeah, same. I did that as well once here. 'Cause I was like, I always get so puffy when I'm here. And so I am like, not this time hair is puffy.

Yeah. And I still had a perfectly lovely time. So I do think it, it is, equally as enjoyable. And in some ways probably more. because I'm sure those people are sleeping much better in the brief snatches of rest that you can get while you're there.

But but I think on top of that, the other thing I would say that is a don't is don't, kind of a, as a "yes, and" to Mac's idea, but just like, don't come in with limitations on yourself. And I think that for me goes back to again, the idea of like, I felt like I was an awkward person. I felt very uncomfortable trying to just like talk to people in the bar at after the events.

And I, but I would just be like, world events did you go to today? And you know what? Also a lot of other writers are also awkward people, and they were really relieved that I had asked them a question. And so I think that's just an example of a limitation that was like kind of self-imposed by me. But I think in general too, like you, you may go to a panel on a genre you don't write and maybe a format.

You don't write whatever sci-fi web series here we are. And you can still learn something and meet someone and have a really positive experience. So I think generally I. Coming in with being curious as your like primary perspective. And I think the opposite of being curious, which is also a do be curious and then a don't is kind of, you don't have to sell beyond the close, you know, you're there.

And there were times where I'd say, oh, I see you have a, you're a second rounder. And then it, and then I've heard the first three seasons of the series and learned nothing about that person. And so I think also, unless you maybe have a film in the festival, you don't need to feel like you have to have a product to push that is your script or yourself you being there as enough and just talk to people and be interested in people and the subject matter.

And I promise you'll be liberated from the shackles of the idea of networking and probably have a much better time.

Lorien: Yeah. Networking is such an odd thing to me. because it assumes that I'm building a network of people I can get things from. Which is just not how it works. Like, I, I don't, it's, you gotta make some friends, that's all.

Yeah. Okay. You guys are awesome. I wanna talk to you all day, but I think we're out of time. But I have three questions that I ask. We ask every guest. The first question is to Sylvia... Mac. Don't worry, you'll get the same question, but try not to overthink it before I get to you. What brings you the most joy when it comes to being a writer? To writing

Sylvia: Genuinely. Writing is like, I sit down and I face a blank page and it's stressful is I don't really have that experience. I feel so goddamn lucky that I get to sit down and start typing and. Have ideas and there might actually be like someone somewhere interested in reading The thing that I typed is it, that has never not been special to me.

I hope it's always special to me and I'm constantly going, I can't believe I'm still here. I can't believe I get to do this. And my slight hesitation on what brought me joy was because it's in a dead heat with collaboration. Because the other thing is I just can't believe that I get to be on a podcast and talk to you lovely people and that there's this, you know, shared interest that's like kind of esoteric in the global scheme of things is shared among so many people.

And I feel so lucky all the time that, that I get to hear what other people think about this thing that I love so much.

Lorien: So, but you are an optimist. I just feel like I wanna ask you these questions and then be like, oh my God, because that's not my answer. But I love it. I think it's beautiful. I was super inspired.

I was like, oh, how do I. Scrape a little bit that and put it on my self in the morning, like a little moisturizer. I love doing this. Right. I feel lucky. Sell that you need merch. Mac, what about you?

Mac: Oh, man, well, I, yeah I too have a slightly more tortured relationship with the blank page than that, but I would agree absolutely that like one of the coolest things about being a writer is getting to talk about writing and getting to like, because if you're a writer, generally speaking, you kind of love storytelling and it's not something that everyone has the language to talk about, and it's not something that everyone wants to talk about.

So yes, I would agree absolutely that like, you know, being able to, you know, be in a world where people. Care about these things. As much as you do these like silly imaginary people and what they're up to and why they're doing what they're doing is absolutely thrilling. I mean, I think, you know, I think for me, what do I love about being a writer?

Lorien: It's probably what brings you the most joy when it comes to your writing.

Mac: Oh my God. Brainstorming, probably that initial like, oh my God, I got a great idea here. And then, you know, kind of like breaking it out a little bit in your mind before you even get anywhere on the page or, you know, like to me that is sort of still the joyful.

A moment before you get into the drudgery of like, oh my God. But it's not quite a, it's not a fully formed thing, and I have to really like unpack it and get the hood open and, you know, start breaking it down. I mean, for me, I think, yeah it's just about that, that the, that moment between like, like ooh, initial spark of inspiration in the shower and then like the next sort of two to three days that you have of just like, oh, what a great idea.

Lorien: It's Duck Boat.

Mac: Yeah, it's Duck Boat. My god. Exactly right. A genius. Yes. That's right. Before you start running into this. Stumbling blocks and the this and the that and the, oh God, I actually have to like really like write this freaking thing and then,

Lorien: or turning on the TV and saying, oh wait, somebody already did that exact thing. Ha.

Mac: Truly the worst. Is there a worst moment for a writer that is like heartbreaking? I agree.

Lorien: It's great if it's more at the beginning part.

Mac: Yes.

Lorien: Rather than like you're about to take it out and it's like, oh, Oprah just did that. Okay, cool. Thanks. Cool. Awesome. I guess I'll go back and come up with something else.

Yeah. All right, so here's the next question we're gonna start with you Mac for this one. What pisses you off about writing?

Mac: Oh my God. What pisses me off about writing and you didn't give this to the optimist first.

Lorien: Now switch it up.

Mac: What pisses me off about writing? You know, I think it's I, it's, I think it's one, one of the things, the first thing that comes to my mind is also I have a love hate relationship with this, which is that it is something that I gen generally, me personally, I have to do alone.

So like. It's something that isolates me, and it's something that I have to say no to things in order to do. It's something that I need a tremendous amount of, you know, solitude in order to really get through it. It's not the easiest thing for everyone to understand, you know, because not everyone's field is like that.

I, that would probably be, and of course when people don't like my ideas that's the other part that I hate. 

Lorien: But whose problem is that? Not your problem.

Mac: I know it's true. That's why it pisses me off.

Lorien: Like, everybody should get this. Yes. Yeah. No, I get it. What about you, Sylvia? What pisses you off about writing?

Sylvia: If this answer is cheating, I'll pick a new answer, but I feel like right now there's this thing where like with writing, there are. At least in the effort to like make a career of it. There are a lot of other attendant things you have to do now, like make a pitch deck. So now I'm a graphic designer and oh, we need to attach talent.

So I've become a casting director and the need to transform oneself into like a single person studio in order to write for a living, I should clarify is very I i'm not fond of that.

Lorien: The business part of being a writer.

Sylvia: Yes. And lots of other things about it are great. In terms of actual writing. I would say my tendency toward like typo blindness, as soon as I hit send, there it is. I see it. It's gone

Lorien: Well, that's the best way to check for typos, right? I mean, just think about it that way. Yeah. Also, I think the lesson in that is don't open the script you sent. Be really blind to it. Like double check, triple check, make sure that's the script you're sending. Do all of that and then I'm done.

Sylvia: That's the Mr. Miyagi. I'm not there yet.

Lorien: Cake bake off. Right. The hands up bakers or whatever, you know, like, we're done. And then that's it. You bring that to the table, right? Yeah.

Mac: I need to learn those boundaries myself as well.

Lorien: I don't do that. Are you kidding me? Obsessively. Is this the right one? Is this the right one? Oh, no. And then you wanna do that? Not that one. This one, but you Oh yeah. That is illegal. Yeah. Can't do that. Can't ever do that. That's the one you sent. That's the one that's gonna get read the end. And sometimes it works in your favor. You know? It will, it does, it has. Okay. Just let me believe this is a lie.

Sylvia: Totally true. Yeah.

Lorien: Yeah. Whatever worked for me. But I've done it. I mean, haven't we all done it? Wait, not this one. That one? Yeah. Oh yeah. And then we go, oops. Never do that again. 'Cause then you're like, wait, no, it's actually this one. because when you get in that spin and the panic of like, not this one, that one and your adrenaline high, and you're like clicking on the wrong thing. Yeah.

Mac: No. Oh you're giving me flashbacks right now.

Sylvia: I feel like I need to phone a friend now, hypothetically, talk me off how stressed I about my hypothetical email

Lorien: You wanna come to AFF and hang out with me? I'm a delight. Yes. So I wanna show you guys my t-shirt and then I'm gonna ask you a third question. This is my t-shirt. It says, first of all, I'm a delight and it has an angry oppossum, which is exactly what you get. My husband got it for me for our like 24th anniversary and I was like, oh my God, you know me.

It only took 30 years, but you do. Okay, so the third question is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self, what advice would you give that version of you, Sylvia?

Sylvia: I would tell that version of myself to and that I think talent is a thing a person has and skill is a thing a person can acquire. And I think I would've told myself like, listen, yes, you have the wherewithal to acquire these skills. Yes, you have a BFA in musical theater performance. However, you still can learn all of these things and it will be okay.

Much of the craft is learnable and if you have the ability to sit your ass down and learn for a very long time, you'll be fine. And I think I would just tell her just, it's fine. You're correct that you don't know it. You can learn it. Chill out. It's okay. Yeah,

Lorien: That's great advice, including dialogue.

Dialogue is craft. It is a skill. Some of us have an innate ability to do that, some of us don't. And that is a craft and a skill. I have a big pet peeve about that. Like either have it or you don't. No. You listen, you learn, you do research. You watch movies, you read scripts. You learn about psychology.

You do, you know, you become like what are those forensic detectives, the personality pathology stuff. You just know more about people and you figure out dialogue. So that's my little, but I totally agree with you. I think that's a good reminder to always have, like, especially when our outline's falling apart at the bottom of Act 2. I can learn this, I know this, I can remind myself how to do this.

Mac, what about you? What would you tell your younger self?

Mac: On a similar note, I think I would tell my younger self also to relax, chill out. But mainly that it takes time. You know, it takes, this whole thing takes time. It takes time to get where you want to be.

Just because it feels like you're not where you feel like you wanna be right now doesn't mean you can't get there. And it, the process takes a long time. It takes time for you to teach yourself. It takes time for you to learn everything you need to learn, as Sylvia said. And it just takes time to break in.

It takes time to be able to, you know, build up, you know, people hearing about you. It takes time to, you know, break through at a competition like Austin. You know, if it even does, you know, I mean, I was a finalist one year in Austin. I got zero calls from it, and then the next year I was a finalist and it ended up changing my career.

So you don't know what's gonna be the thing. There are no two routes. You can't look at, oh, well this person that I admired did this and X, Y, and Z and therefore, you know, I'm gonna go that route and it's gonna work out the same way for me. It's just not how it works. I mean, there's no two, I mean, there's really like, no, it's like a snowflake.

You know? Everybody's career path in this industry appears from my perspective to be totally like different than the way that everybody gets into this and has success is unique, you know, and there's no blueprint to get there. But however you do it, it's gonna take time. It's gonna take longer than you want it to take.

Lorien: And then once you've broken in. You're still doing it. You're still trying to get the next thing. You're still building your

Mac: Yes, that's, and then that's right. It never ends.

Lorien: I think one of the things that I really am working with myself and with other writers I talked to is what is your measure of success?

Right? That, and then, and allowing that goalpost to move in different directions depending on what's going on in your life, because you'll think, oh, if I win an Oscar, then I'm a success. Well, I know people who've won Oscars that didn't get any calls after they won the Oscar, and then are still like writing specs right now and trying to like.

They're still writing specs to like sell or like get a meeting or like, it's not a guarantee in any way. So it's always that willingness to like, okay, I have talent. I'm learning my skills, I need patience. Like you said, it's gonna take time. And then the hustle and being a business person in the industry.

It's so easy. I think the, I dunno why we have this podcast. It's so easy.

Sylvia: Well, I think too, what you're saying about goals and like, I, that was something I wish I had a firmer grasp on earlier because I spent so long trying to break in as a staff writer.

And you know, again, from my first finalist at Austin until I was soft, it was seven years and I was trying, and I was a PA and I was doing this and I was doing that, and finally I got staffed and I was like, oh my God, I did it.

I finally did it. Oh God, now I can breathe. Oh wait, no, it's 20 weeks and then I have to get another one. And also like breaking into the next, I'm at the bottom of the top of the thing that I thought, and now it's actually a whole new level of new things. And I had never looked beyond the goal of getting staffed.

And so then once you're there, it's like, oh, if you want to keep doing this for a long time, there's a lot of other things to be looking toward and being smart about. I remember as soon as I got staffed, someone said to me the only thing harder than getting your first staff job is your second. Why would that be the first thing you tell me? But I do think just having a very long view, if you intend to do this for a living and for a career having that type of perspective you were mentioning Lorien and on your goals is really crucial. 

Lorien: I think that is a great way to wrap up the show, which is all those beautiful things you both said. So thank you both for being on the show. It was a joy, and I hope I see you at AFF next time.

Mac: Yes. Thank you for having us!

Sylvia: This was a delight.

Lorien: Thank you so much to both Sylvia and Mac for being here and chatting with us about AFF and their careers and pitching and life lessons and writing lessons.

And if you are coming to AFF this year, 2025, find me and Meg and the TSL team to say hi. 

And remember you are not alone and keep writing.