245 | How To Pivot Genres and "Re-Brand" Yourself As A Writer (ft. Carla Banks-Waddles)

Carla Banks-Waddles has lived many lives as a writer. From being a valued member of multi-cam half hour rooms, to pivoting towards single cam serialized family dramas, Carla has had a wonderfully diverse career. How? She wrote her way there. Enjoy Carla's insightful, optimistic, and sometimes obsessive approach to how we can craft our dream career as writers. Whip out your swobes, and get ready to slork!

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Lorien: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Screenwriting Life. I'm Lorien McKenna, and today I'm excited to be joined by Carla Banks-Waddles. Carla's an acclaimed writer and producer with credits spanning Good Girls, Hit the Floor, that's so Raven, and Half, and she is currently the showrunner of Bel Air, the popular reimagining of the Fresh Prince of Bel Air on Peacock.

She has also secured an overall deal with Universal Television under her production company Babycakes Productions dedicated to creating impactful black stories and amplifying underrepresented voices. And I today am especially excited to chat with Carla about ensemble storytelling on tv. Welcome to the show, Carla.

Carla: Thank you for having me.

Lorien: Of course, but before we get into it we're gonna do what we like to call adventures in screenwriting where we talk about our week. So I'll go first. This week and last week, I have been heads down a hundred percent not a hundred percent. All the writing time I have which is Monday, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays, I've carved out all day for writing time focused on developing the show so I can pitch a one hour drama, which is out of my normal wheelhouse.

Usually I'm very in the sort of like half hour traumedy space or the feature. So this is new for me, but it's what the show is, so it's what I'm writing into and I'm doing all the things that I love that are super fun. I mean, I found the engine, I found all the pieces of it. So now I'm digging deep into the character background so that I understand how her behaviors are affecting her relationships work, all these, all these things that I can track her relationships and everything.

And what I'm discovering is that while this character is so not me. That some of her patterns are mine and it's it's disturbing because I consider myself very self-aware. I understand my behaviors and then sometimes I adjust them or don't. And it gave me pause in my own relationships to work and personal stuff because I thought, oh God, there's a whole bunch of new stuff I don't know about myself yet.

And it made me feel really sad on the one hand. But then I realized as a reflection back to my character she also considers herself very self-aware, but hasn't taken, this isn't moving forward. So it was just this weird loop of this relationship I have with my character, which made me really connect to her even more.

And also very scary, right? This sort of precipice of, oh fuck. Like why does writing, why can't it just be I came up with this great concept and this great world and these great characters and let's go have fun. Instead, it's this like swimming around and what we on the show called the Lava, right?

Which is oh, I have to fully jump in and stick my whole body and swim around in it, when really I just wanna make a TV show. Why was it so hard? But, and it's, and also I got, I've been just so busy, right? Working till late at night. Every moment of time I have, I'm working or family or something, and I've burned myself out pretty much.

And then all that emotional stuff becomes even bigger. So I'm realizing today that I need to stop. Like I feel, you know when, okay. Let ask you this, Carla, you get to a point on a show when you're just like obsessed, so excited, this is it, this is happening. I can't, I, and then I can't take, I can't stop.

Carla: Yes.

Lorien: So I'm ha- but I, I have to, or I'm going to break and I prefer not to. And I woke up crying this morning.

Carla: Oh no.

Lorien: So I realized, oh, okay. I think I see what's happening here. I hit the wall. I'm not crying like anything sad. Just like pure exhaustion.

Carla: Exhaustion. Yeah. I. And it can be so all encompassing what we do.

Like we can 24/ 7, do what we do and never take a break, never eat, never go to the bathroom, never talk to our friends, never see our family. Yep. And still have a never enough time to do what we need to do.

Lorien: Yes. And like I got up yesterday, I forgotten that I had to take my daughter to karate at 5:30, so I Oh, and I stand up and my hip hurt so bad because I hadn't moved in five hours. Oh. And I was like, what is happening to me? Why am I trying to hurt myself? Yeah. But I'm, but the good side is that I had been so lost and fractured leading up to this. I had no focus. I didn't know what was going on. So just like deciding to focus on this project was like, it feels freedom and power and passion and, all the things that I had been missing before I had decided to commit to this project. So it's amazing and terrible.

Carla: That is amazing though.

Lorien: Yeah.

Carla: You found something that lights you up like that.

Lorien: Yes. I'm so excited. But how was your week?

Carla: Wow, that's so good to hear.

Yeah. I mean, you said burnout. I feel like I connect to that, especially this week. 'cause last weekend leading into this week was very much what you're saying, like getting up off the couch and realizing your legs give out. 'cause I spent all last weekend working and it's spring break for my son. So he was home and I was working from home a couple of days and I almost got embarrassed with how much he was seeing me working.

Lorien: Oh no. Really?

Carla: Because he said, 'cause I have this standing desk now that is sort of portable. I got it on Amazon. You put it together and I can roll it around the house and I can make it low and sit on the couch, but I can also raise it up and stand. But it keeps me not trapped in my little home office 'cause I just get like a little depressed sitting in one place.

So this was a way to try to give myself some freedom by moving around the home with this desk. And but it, I ended up moving it out into like our living room space and I perched there and I was. Embarrassed because when he, knowing that he was at home and seeing me, like he would leave in the morning.

He's a basketball player, he is in high school, he would go leave for a workout or a practice and then he would come home and I'm still sitting there. He would go out and spend some time with his friends. Back and I'm still sitting there. And so he would finally was just like, how do you sit here all day like that?

And even into the night, 'cause it was a whole weekend where I, he'd come home and I'm asleep on the couch and then he'd come back home and I'm awake, but I'm kind of asleep. But kinda working. I call it slorking. I've developed a sleep working thing called slorking. Like I don't ever go to bed in the bed itself, but I do sleep.

Lorien: But then, but do you wear a swobe?, which is a sweater robe, the long sweater around it's like a super cardigan. It's a swobe. So you wear a swobe while you're slorking.

Carla: I am obsessed. I love that word. And I wear it, and I didn't know I had a name for it.

Lorien: Yeah. I, it's when I was pregnant, I just wore sws and leggings and Uggs.

So now I'm like, why let go of this style? It works for me.

Carla: Have a swobe while slorking. Yes. Yes. But it was one of those things where somebody like sees you and realizes just how much you are kind of stuck in that space and Yeah. So he just sort of said, how do you do that? How do you I've had two days of life and you've just been sitting on this couch.

Lorien: Yeah. I, yeah, I did you get what you needed to get done though? Do you feel good about it?

Carla: I did. Yeah, I did. In a way that brought me into this week where we turned in is a script that for the first time ever in the history of this show from the studio, we got no notes.

Lorien: Oh. What?

Carla: Which means this weekend I will not be slorking because Oh, it suddenly opened up. 'cause you wait for the notes to come in. Yeah. And I thought I was gonna spend this weekend working on those notes, but now it's oh, I can go outside. I don't have to sit here.

Lorien: The dangerous part of this is it sets us up to be like when I work all weekend, I have success. So it's this, which is just the nature of the industry in a way, right?

Like the rhythms and how fast notes get turned around and it's, there's no bad piece of it. It's just that this isn't a job that's like regular.

Carla: No, it's, yeah. I think the key for me is that I'm so in my head that I forget my body, which has been a pattern. So I'm like, I have to exercise.

Lorien: Yes. This is a constant, everyone on the listeners are like, yeah, Lorien, we get it. Yeah. So boring. Quit talking about it and just do it. But when I stood up and my hip hurt, I was like, oh, I've been in my head. For 24, just for two weeks straight. I haven't actually connected to my body, which is I think why I woke up crying. 'cause my body's like help!

Carla: Yes. Help. Help me.

Lorien: Yeah. Like I, I lost my appetite. Not a good, not taking care of myself, but at the same time I have never felt better creatively. So it's this weird

Carla: Yeah. 'cause you're on fire for something. Yes. And you wanna spend all your time and energy doing it.

But then you also have to find that balance of, but I also need to take care of myself so I have the time and energy to still do it.

Yes. To take care of other people.

Lorien: That's the other part oh, then I have to take care. I have to be okay to take care of my family. And then I'm like, oh no. Yes.

Carla: Oh yes, of course. Yes. That are depending on me. Yes.

Lorien: But life is great. Everything's great. Nothing to look at. Everything's fine. We're totally great.

Yeah, so let's talk about Bel Air, because I loved Fresh Prince when I was like, I love that show so much. It is. It was so not my life in any way, but like the wish fulfillment of I get to go live with some what if I, what if that were me and, being a poor kid from a small town and wouldn't that be fun?

So I love that show and I love like the yes. The nineties were like, sitcom was just, it was the thing. So yes. How did you get connected to the show and get to be the, I'm sure you didn't get to be, you worked your ass off to get the, wasn't like, you're welcome, here you go, I'm here. So tell me the story of how you became the current showrunner of Bel Air.

Carla: Yes. Yes. I too was a fan of the show in the nineties and looked up to that family and wanted to be the family and what if I had a family like that? And coming to this show, being at Universal and having an overall deal at Universal just sort of means you're in the family here.

And I was shooting a pilot in New York at the time that Bel-Air was being developed, and I had seen it and I was like, oh, great. Look at what Universal's doing. Good for them.

That sounds exciting.

Lorien: Did you have that moment of I wish I could do that, or was it still just like a distant, you're doing your own thing?

Carla: It was a little bit of both. It was a little I'm over here doing my own thing, but Wow. That sounds fantastic. And at the time, this viral short from the director and the creator of the show, Morgan Cooper, it had gone viral and I watched it and it was so brilliant and I was like, this feels like a no brainer, like good for Universal, for doing this.

So I remember watching it from a distance, a little admirable and just, excited for what was to come and. Being, finishing my pilot and coming back home from New York and it being a universal show and me being in the universal family, they just said, Hey, what do you think about going over and talking to some of the guys at Bel Air?

They could use some extra help maybe being a consultant. And so while I was in that period of waiting for my pilot to get picked up, which it didn't.

Lorien: I'm sorry.

Carla: I was, I know it happens, it's part of...

Lorien: but you know, when you look at your history, like mine is here are all the pilots I've written and sold that did not get made right.

Here's how I make a living. So when people say, what was the last thing you worked on? I'm like you haven't seen it, but it's this amazing show that I wrote, this, the great pilot that didn't get picked up, but you know, I would be seen, but it paid my mortgage. Exactly. That's when your family's what do you do?

And I'm like yes, I'm a professional TV writer. Here's how this works.

Carla: Yes. Why are you sitting on the couch for days? I'm not seeing any fruits of your labor.

Lorien: Yeah. Okay, so you got set, you were invited to go. Help be consultant.

Carla: Yeah. Invited to do that. And so that's when I joined the staff in season one.

Just coming on to kind of hear what was going on. And at the time they were shooting the pilot already in Philly and I knew some of the writers in the room. So it felt great. It just felt natural to, to sort of be there and develop the season. And it was a really good experience and through just life in this business the former showrunners that who are great that I came on to work for moved on in a way that caused me to have to step in.

And that's when I came on board in season two halfway early in season two to be the showrunner. With the same writers. Shepherding it through season two and season three and then now we are in season four.

Lorien: Congratulations.

Carla: Thank you.

Lorien: It's such a great show. I thank you. I love the pilot and how it drops all the lyrics of the song. Yes. But in a very like it's a call out in a way. Yes. West Philadelphia, like everyone knows that song. Yeah. You don't, for all your young people, please go watch that show and learn the song and watch the watch, watch Bel Air. But I loved it. It was this sort of balance of this is a serious show, it's a drama.

Yes. Also this sort of wink in a nod to where it comes from. And I thought it was so well done and so fun and and then, and then it. I don't know that there's any more references to it specifically. Like in season one.

Carla: Season one we drop little Easter eggs here and there. Okay. So if people know the show, they'll go, oh, I know that character.

Lorien: Oh, like in season one where the friend comes to visit, I was like, oh, I remember that episode from the original show. And it's all disruptive and the choice, like there's stuff like that, that are really fun.

Carla: Yes. But nothing from the song like you're saying. Yeah.

Lorien: But I just thought it was so clever as a way to be like, okay, we get it.

We know what we are. Yes. But come on for the, here we go. We're gonna give you the taste of what you want. But then also which I thought was such a lovely way to honor what the sitcom of it. So yeah. That's really fun.

Carla: A lot of people connected, like you were saying, just to that family and the wish fulfillment and the what if.

And so trying to hold on to the things that we all loved about it, which was this family and o obviously the aspirational nature of it. But then what, but what if, so just kind of holding onto the heartbeat and then kind of letting it grow from there.

Lorien: So coming in, as you've been working on the show, but coming in as the showrunner and sort of the shift to being the creative center what was that, what is your responsibility to the original show?

The, short, the showrunners that moved on, like that feels like a lot.

Carla: Yes, it's a lot. It is a lot. Especially 'cause it's big IP. It got picked up for two seasons and as any show is starting off, people think they know what they want, but they're not really sure. You're still sort of finding the tone, the voice, the characters, the rhythm and it just took a long time to get there.

And so I think being in the midst of still people not really knowing or trying to formulate exactly what it is, but then trying to say, but I have a vision for what it could be. But still holding onto a lot of what we have. Which for me was Will, was so much of the early talk, like how do we surround will with, and have him be the center of this show with his family around him and so much of the beginning of the season.

Was that because it had to be that like he was our main character, he was the fish out of the water. He was the one coming to Bel Air. So much of it was rallying around Will and his success. And we are all, everybody is here for you Will. And I think me coming on board in the season two and sort of seeing now more fully our cast, we have a fantastic cast and and what they could do and deliver and really seeing in, in this world of an ensemble in Yes, Will being the center, but this whole family has a story.

And especially when you have a little more room to breathe and a drama, a one hour space where you can take the time to give everybody a little bit of a story of their own, that feels just a little separate from Will's story, where he is not the center because you've got Aunt Viv and Uncle Phil and grown ass marriage.

Yes. Love my kids. Not always be at the center of it.

They're dealing with their own stuff.

So like how do you tell real stories for this family individually? In a more of an ensemble way. That still stays true to everything we've set up and the original series and what we've done so far, but really sort of what felt like an evolution or an outgrowth from that.

Now that we're in season two and beyond.

Lorien: How do will is the center and you have all these characters, how are you balancing, it's sort of like a blended central character ensemble. How do you, how, what is the check of, okay, this story with say Aunt Viv going off and doing this, does it still need to be coming back to impact Phil and the family?

Or what is that check and balance that you have of is this too far? Is this too, not too far enough? What is that? Is that just that check or is there some other check you have?

Carla: I think one thing that is, you know, 'cause and we always get the note like, don't make anybody feel too siloed.

So even though on has her own story and she may go off to work and or there's a marriage story brewing with Uncle Phil and Aunt Viv. It's don't ever make, try not to keep everyone siloed. So just because. Why do we care that Aunt Viv goes to work? Why do we care that Uncle Phil is running for DA or starting his own law firm?

I think the challenge is not making characters feel siloed and having it come back to hit other characters in some way. So how is that eventually going to intersect with something that. That Will is going through in his own life or how is that gonna affect something that the kids are experiencing in their own life.

And like in season three, it was all about Will trying to build a, it was summertime, he was trying to build a business and something that helps the community, the black community in particular. But in Phil's work storyline, he was trying to start a law firm and having to make some questionable decisions about things that were actually harming the community.

In a way that Phil, so it was a way to sort of intersect Will's values, and sort of what Uncle Phil was doing that sort of were against those values. And so it allowed them to butthead. So it wasn't just strictly a work story for Phil. Sometimes it was, but it was always just finding a way.

In that case, bring it back home to how it affects another character. And I think that is sort of true for all of the storylines, not making them feel siloed. Like how is eventually that gonna come back to hit another character in their journey or thematically, how are they connected?

Lorien: No, I, and the reason I'm asking, and we, you and I talked before the interview about selfishly wanna talk to you about this because I am trying to write an ensemble, and Yeah.

My, I've been writing very much like main character. She's in every scene, everything is her through line, like all the way straight through. And it's all about her and her point of which is that half hour, darker comedy, right? The Bear, like they're comedies, but you know, it's half-hour. But so trying to figure out how to make sure that my main character is the center like in the series. How to tell those stories, in a pitch, but also in constructing the pilot. 'cause my default is it's her, she's the center. So I'm trying to figure out in the pilot how to weave in enough stories that you feel satisfied.

But also, and I'm not, to be clear for, I'm not writing the pilot, I'm pitching the pilot. So I get away with some, you get away with some leeway when you're doing that. Because you're and then she realizes Yeah, in a very fun way, in a very, don't ask too many questions, how she realizes what it looks like, but so it's a challenge for me to shift formats. Yeah. And it's just a shift. And you've changed formats. You started out in the multi-cam.

Carla: Yes.

Lorien: Comedy.

Carla: Yes.

Lorien: Kid space is, were you more in like the teen space?

Carla: A little bit of both, but yeah, I did some Disney, Nickelodeon stuff. Yeah. I went all over the place in the half hour multi-camera world.

Yeah. Yes. All over.

Lorien: And so what is that like you've had all this, you've had all this great experience and worked with different people. What has that transition been like from, did you know one day I wanna do be in the drama format? Or were not to say we're old, but you know, we have careers, right?

There's a span of experience, development as we're developing as people, as women, as writers along, on the same, you're growing up in that space in a way as a writer. So that's sort of. What? Yeah. What is that like? Because my point is, at the beginning of career when you get your first gig as a writer, you're like, oh my God.

This is amazing. I'm writing, I'm in the room, and you may have dreams of doing something else and you may not. So what was that like for you?

Carla: Yes. I know, early on I was just excited that someone's gonna pay me to write! Words. Yes. I'll take the job. Yes, I'll take the job. I don't care what it is, I'll take the job.

And so very much, which led me early on in my career to be a little scattered when you look at it, because it is a little Disney, it's a little Nickelodeon and Fresh Beat Band. And it's wait, what? It doesn't make sense. And because I was just willing to take anything 'cause having a small child and then small children, it's just Hey, this is, I wanna make a living and if people are gonna pay me to make a living to do this thing that I love, we'll, I'll figure it out.

Lorien: I'm validating your choices. Yes. Okay. Like it's, there is, we talk about it on the show really look at what the job is. Can you tell the story? Is it true? Is it true? But all, and that's great, but that feels like a, a creative luxury in some ways. Also, you have to pay the bills. Yes.

And so if you can do the job, do the job. Right. Yeah. Is that those choices.

Carla: Yes, absolutely. And so looking back, some of those choices were financially driven. And I think, just getting in where I can get in and honestly the transition to one hour also very financially driven because starting off in that multi-camera half hour world at the time, there was lots of thing, lots of shows and lots of opportunities.

And it just changed, the television landscape changed where some of those multi-cam were dying, a single camera became the thing. There was a lot of feeling like, oh, she's only done multi-cam. Can she transition into single cam? I'm like, it's comedy. It's comedy guys. It's four jokes a page, whatever.

It's the same thing. I can do it. But it's still that feeling. If you were doing one thing in one lane for most of your career, can you transition? And so it really came down to necessity of. What was used to be hiring staffing season in May, and if you didn't have a job, you had to wait for the next staffing season.

And those meetings in May were becoming fewer and fewer. And I had some friends who were in doing one hour and saying I had multiple meetings and I had meetings with the showrunners, not just, the executives. I had showrunner meetings multiple and getting multiple offers on one hour dramas.

And so for me it was really looking at the writing on the wall in the future. I gotta make this leap guys. I gotta make this leap. And half hour was tough and I was hearing that the hours in one hour were better in half hours like you're there until you're not. You just don't know. It's an unpredictable schedule during your week where you're writing, you're rewriting, you're going to rehearsals, you're staying there up all night into the weekends until that audience loads in.

And then, so it's, it was just kind of a machine in that half hour world where you just having a life, which was harder with kids too, to not be coming home and not being able to make plans. So a lot of that transition to one hour was financially driven, lifestyle driven and had to ultimately tell my agents, 'cause it's easy for them to sell you in the thing that you, they've been selling you in.

Yes. Through your whole life in your career, right? And said, Hey guys, here's my new piece of material. Here's a half hour version of it. Go do your thing. But then here's the same material and a one hour version. Oh, let's give it a try.

So they felt there was a comfort too. All right, we're gonna go out and sell her how we've been selling her, but we'll also dip our toe into this other side and see if we get some traction in this one hour space. And so that one hour script did lead me to get the first job, which was Hit the Floor.

Them reading that script and going, uhoh, there's a voice here. It's, it is soapy, kind of a voice. One hour. Yeah. Is the beginning of the rest. I was like, why haven't I been over here? Doing. One of the first meetings in the room with that showrunner was, so we leave at six o'clock and you're like, gasp.

What are you talking about? We leave at six o'clock. There's no ending time. We're just here until we're here. He was like, no, we leave at six o'clock every day. And so I didn't believe it, but sure enough, in that first meeting it was like, all right, it's, he looked at his watch and said, it's 5 45, so let's start wrapping up and talking about what we're gonna do tomorrow.

And it was like the world opened up. It's I don't know what this is. I don't, but I don't know why I haven't been in this one hour space and why it took me so long. And I just loved it. I loved it. And it took me years to do it, but it was the best decision I ever made.

Lorien: Awesome. So you wrote yourself into it.

You're, you weren't expecting oh, please read my half hours. It was like, I wrote an hour. I have a sample to prove that I can do this and be in that space. Yeah.

Carla: Yeah. Make it happen. Make it happen. It took longer than I, it should have, but that was...

Lorien: we all have regrets. We shouldn't. We should just be like, where am I right now?

How did I get here? This is my new philosophy. I'm like, okay, I have all these, where am I right now? Am I doing the thing I need to do to get where I think I should be? Yeah.

Carla: Yes. And I would not, that journey of starting in half hour was such a great training ground, of just the machine of the jokes and the comedy and being able to take any situation and find a comedic look at it.

Has helped me tremendously in the one hour space. So I don't regret that journey in that experience that I had. 'cause I think it, it has definitely helped me where I am today.

What other things did you learn working in the midst, the half hour space that you've taken with you to be in the hour space?

I think not being scared to rewrite something, not being scared to look at something, go, this doesn't work, guys. Throw it out. And sometimes we did it in a way that we didn't need to in a half hour space, but there was a lot of times out of fear going down and watching a scene or a rehearsal and going, none of this works.

We've gotta go back and do a page one rewrite. And sometimes it was just a showrunner being fearful. Let's just believe in the material it's gonna work. But we often would go back and just throw everything out and a lot of times it would get better. It would get better. And so not being scared to just throw something out and take a chance on it being better.

'cause we did a lot, sometimes you just see it different. And I think sometimes we'll stick with something forever 'cause we work so hard and it's just like the thought of starting over and looking at it different. Yeah. Let's just stay with what we got. But sometimes you just gotta not be scared to throw it out.

And I think that half hour doing that over and over takes away that fear.

Lorien: Yep. What advice would you have for writers who are in that comfort zone? Whether they are working in the half hour space or just this is me and thinking, huh, maybe the half hour space is a little trickier than the hour space.

What advice do you have for someone who's never written an hour? Yes. Who is like, all right I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go do that.

Carla: I think write it, write yourself. Write your way out, because if you're in a position of having to prove to people that you can because you haven't, then the way to prove that you can is to show 'em. And so I think whatever your voice is, if you're a procedural, this is not me, if you're the law and order procedural and that's your thing. Write something that looks like that. If you're more the soapy family drama, write something that looks like that, but write the thing that, that will show people that you can, make that next step and transition into it.

Yeah. And then do it. Yeah.

Lorien: So I do this thing on the show all the time where I declare a thing to be truth, and then I'm like, wait a minute. I have written and I've sold an hour. I do this thing where I'm like, here's what I am. I'm, and it's so I. I wonder if other writers do this too, or if this is just my like phenomenal A DHD brain, forgetting that I was actually a writer, when I sold that show.

I don't know, do you do that or you just, you know what, who you are and like what you've done? Or is this just me a disassociating almost constantly from, have been successful in the hour space? So I'm like, what am. Why do I undercut my, I know you're not a therapist. Like I, no, it's true. I do this in almost every episode.

I put myself out there as I don't know what I'm doing. And then I'm like, but wait a minute. I know I do. I know you've done it.

Carla: You've done it.

Lorien: Yeah. I don't, I don't know. Maybe that's just me.

Carla: No, it's not. I think as writers, I think we're a little neurotic as writers, yeah. Just are. Yeah. But you do, it's almost like you have to, and I haven't done this, but it's almost like you have to write down your successes and be reminded.

Lorien: That sounds terrible. Oh.

Carla: Reminded that you're the shit. Oh God. I did.

Lorien: All right. Okay. That's my assignment for this week. I'm gonna write down my successes. Yes. Like actual, I have to figure out what a success is though. Like I have to define like what success is to me. See, then we get into a whole deeper, very terrifying conversation of what does success mean and is that, should I be doing that anyway, so maybe not.

Anyway. I know, but okay. I wanna talk about what soapy means, 'cause Yeah. Because my TV show is soapy in that it is got romance in it. It's got big stakes, like some life and death stakes, but it's soapy in that it's like Grey's Anatomy, there's the, but I but it. But if, do you think Bel Air is soapy?

Carla: I mean, we do get called it, and I used to run away from that word. I hate that word. Yeah. But I understand that it is a soapy family drama. And I think when we talk about the soapy parts, it is the relationships and the messiness and oh my gosh, that's my ex-girlfriend and now my best friend's dating him.

I mean, I think it's the stuff that people like to watch and it's like the fun stuff.

Yeah, the fun I guess.

Lorien: It's just because soap operas, they daytime soap operas have this, are a thing. Yes. And they're delicious for what they are. And then, and it has like this kind of not positive, you know what I, we don't have to put this on the show, but I wanna have a soap opera writer on the show, by the way. 'cause I wanna celebrate all writing and storytelling. Yes. And leaning into it's amazing for what it, like everything is amazing for what it is. So anyway, that doesn't have to be in the show, but just sort of a what is it so it's the relationships, it's the never sort of resolving energy of a relationship.

Is that what it is?

Carla: It's what I think it is like the messiness. So as much as we wanna be earnest on the show or Bel Air has messages, I never wanna hit people over the head with Preachiness. But I think it's sort of, if it was vegetables and dessert, I think the soapiness is the dessert. And I think it is the stuff that people like to watch, and it is the in our case on Viv Uncle Phil, there's a young lady from their past who is back in their present and, as serious and wonderful as they are and official in their business and owned its center, moral center of the show. They have this little messy, fun desserty storyline where this woman has come back and used to date Phil in the past when they were in college. And she was a sorority sister of Vivs who stole her man back in the day. And so it does bring in a little fun of why she back in our lives.

Like just the fun, sort of relatable, messy and even in the young people's lives, like a I think a love triangle. People love a good love triangle. And even with Hillary and her storyline with Jazz and LaMarcus, like people, we have so many like serious storylines that we're telling about gentrification in Los Angeles and the black community.

But all people wanna talk about is Hillary gonna date Jazz or laMarcus, who she gonna pick? So I think that's just like the soapy stuff that people just love. They love that messy human stuff. And I think it's fun to write. You can't be all candy and dessert, but I think when you give people a little taste of it, it's the thing that people tweet about.

It's the things that they lean into, right?

Lorien: I, it's like there's this piece of do you wanna call your own show soapy? 'cause or is there a better way or not a better, a different way to say that has like the same. Yes. Sort of hit, Hollywood is all about, like the new word, right?

There's, there was elevating it for something. Subverting. Subverting thing. There's always this thing, this way. People are talking about material writing. Is, are there different ways to say soapy?

Carla: Soapy? I mean, I say we give them our vegetables and we, with the dessert is what I always say. Like we gotta give them the dessert.

Gotta give them a dessert.

Lorien: That's, I remember the pitch for my other one hour was like, it is like Thanksgiving dinner, right? Where you've got the, but then you have the sweet potatoes, which is kind of a dessert. But on the same, we're gonna give you broccoli, but you also get your mashed potatoes and your pie.

Why is it food somehow? It's food. I know like we're gonna give you some nutrition, some things to think about. Yeah. But also then you get three kinds of pie.

Carla: Yes. Kind of pie. Okay. And people like their pie.

Okay.

And I think as you're as standing in the shoes of being a television watcher yourself, I think we have to do that sometimes when we're writing and but what is, we like the dessert. What is fun when you kinda step outside of the writing and just as a viewer, what's fun to watch?

Yeah.

The things that our viewers, and a lot of times, it's the vegetables and the meat, but it's also just like they like a little candy, a little dessert, a little pie.

We're all kinda leaning in and talking about the pie. Did you see the pie?

Lorien: I love it. I love, I like, this is a pie show. Okay, think about the show like Thanksgiving. Okay? You're gonna have your weird hor d'oeuvres. Like they're, fill, they're gonna fill you up and then, you may or may not eat the dinner.

And then, that's a bad analogy. I am amazing for bad metaphors and analogies and taking them to a point that no longer makes sense or tracks.

Carla: Follow you. I'm following it.

Lorien: You follow? You're there. You're like, I'm at the dinner. I'm ready. I've eaten the devil eggs. I've got the weird nuts. And I'm ready and I'm gonna force myself to eat the Turkey, right?

Carla: Yes. Yeah, because I know the pie is coming. Pie is coming.

Lorien: Yes. I'm with you. Okay, good. All right. So let's talk about, I mean, you're at Universal, so you're sort of tapped into a little bit more of the industry than I am sitting at home in my basement, obsessed with my show. What do you think the industry's appetite is? Appetite. What is right for for the multi-cam?

Like I have the sense that it's kind of coming back a little bit. Do you or do you feel that way?

Carla: I do too. And I hear about, successful shows, on Netflix that are going, and obviously Chuck Laurie is, he is still going strong. I do think that there is definitely I think there, especially in this world of we don't hand out our money to produce these shows.

I do think that the multi-camera half hour model financially is still very attractive to people. And I think yeah. So I definitely think that they're out there and they, and I like you're saying I feel like I'm seeing more of them where they were going away and you, they were a little bit of a dying breed.

I feel like I'm reading about Oh, more of them being on the air and being successful. Yeah. Especially on streaming. Yeah. Yeah.

Lorien: What about the one hour space?

Carla: The one hour space? I feel like sometimes that I've seen a more leaning and maybe because it is their, again, in this financial model cheaper to produce.

But the procedural model seems to be the one hour space, like finding the procedural that people love characters. Matlock, the new Matlock is fantastic, so...

Lorien: I haven't watched it yet, but I cannot wait.

Carla: Yes. It's so good. Yes.

And I think that is sort of the sweet spot to like finding that new one hour procedural show that feels fresh.

Whether it was the medical show or the detective show, the law firm show, like those seem to be very popular. I think for me, the harder nut that I've seen to crack is sort of this soapy family, which is amazing because that's my show. It's like not, it's not any of those procedural, like it has an element to it.

Lorien: I'm like, oh, this is great. I will just do the thing that's impossible. 'cause it's what I've always done. Like I don't whatever. It's fine. I'm just gonna go do this thing. Yeah. That's great. You'll love it. Everybody will love it. It's perfect. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

Carla: Because it's all about good characters, and I think that's, that soapy world, it really is just about good characters, and following those characters, not so much the case of the weak, but it's just who are these characters and what are their stories that we're following and what do, who do we care about?

Lorien: We, so you started as an intern?

Carla: Yes.

Lorien: And so you started as an intern, and now you're a showrunner. Yes. What do you think you learned? Not, what do you think you learned along the way? More what was something that you've learned to do really well and what was like a fuck up that you're like, oh, no, I can't believe I did that.

For example, when I first got to Hollywood, I thought generals were interviews. Like I didn't understand that. It was like, you talk for like however long you have, and then the last five minutes are, oh, hey, I'm gonna introduce you to so and I thought I was like interviewing. Like I thought there was a, you're in charge and you can, I didn't understand.

It took me a while. It's fine. I learned, but like that was kind of a, oh no, that's so embarrassing. Oh if you wanna share something like that with us that I didn't know. Oh goodness.

Carla: Starting as an intern, it's so interesting 'cause when you start in that unpaid role, 'cause I was not getting paid money to be there.

You see a lot of things, bad behavior and good behavior and I, I think what I didn't know early on was how sacred the writer's room is. And I do remember being an intern and getting lunches, and the only time I would go in the writer's room was to put somebody's soup in front of them. Here's the soup.

And I'd try to glance at the boards like, what are you all doing in here? And I would skulk back out. But it was just such a sacred place. And I remember very early on asking the showrunner, catching her in the hallways that she was going from one office to the other, saying, can I sit in the writer's room?

Can I sit in the writer's room?

Lorien: That's awesome.

Carla: Right? And she looked at me and she just said, no. And then she kept walking, like she didn't have time for me. And my feelings were very hurt. And I asked one of the other writers later, I said she just shut me down and said, no. And they said what have you written?

What have you, have you earned the right to ask that question kind of thing. What has, does she know how serious you are about writing? Because she's not gonna just let anybody into the writer's room. And so I think that was just sort of an early lesson to me early on, that you kinda gotta show some stuff before you do stuff. And so I took that to heart and stayed around and anytime she asked me to do anything, she was also developing while she had the current show. And I, somebody said if you could be helpful in the development, 'cause she doesn't have a lot of time for that. She's so busy running the current machine.

Maybe there's a way for you to take your eye off the current machine a little bit and see how you can be helpful in the machine that's next up for her. And so that was advice. So I just remember saying if there's anything you need, if there's anything you want. So anything that she said, if she would ask me to put pen to paper in any way, I would do my best.

And I remember the first thing she said is, okay, in this development piece, this woman's going on a date, she's gonna get prepared to go on a date. What are some of the things somebody would do to be prepared for a date? And I was like, okay, got it. And I brainstormed like two pages of things, that a young lady would be doing to prepare for a date.

And so I just tried to show her that I was serious about it. So if there was anything she asked me to do, I would go above and beyond. And eventually she let me in that writer's room. And I remember I was at USC, I was in graduate school, had a full day of classes, and I would come in and intern in between those.

And the day that she told me, you can be in the writer's room, I canceled all my class. I'm not coming today. I will not be showing up for class today, professors. Yep. 'cause she let me in that writer's room. So I think just not to understanding how sacred it was early on and just wanting to like bogar my way in there.

But I think also just learning from being an intern, bad behavior and good behavior and seeing the kind when I am in that spot, not just from the showrunner, but just from writers throughout the years. Showrunners who behave poorly, and writers who behave poorly and knowing the kinda room that you want to build and knowing the kind of showrunner that you want to be and that you don't wanna be. And I think years of seeing that and being in rooms has sort of helped shape that for me.

Lorien: I love that. I love that you were like, Hey, how can I do this? And then it was and then you investigate it and then you did the work that you didn't like.

Oh my God. It didn't let it spiral you out. You did the work. And that's hard. Rejection is hard, but it is a part of oh, I maybe didn't do that the right way. And figuring out how to correct and prove yourself. I mean, unfortunately you really do have to do the work first. No one's gonna say come on in and learn it, and then I'll shepherd you and guide you.

I mean, being a showrunner is, it's hard. Oh my God, it's so hard. But I don't know who, which writer said that? She said it's like being beaten to death with your dreams. And that was my experience of it too. I was like, this is the best thing. This is the worst thing. Like I am I gonna survive.

Yay. We did it. Oh my god. So it's...

Carla: that's a very good analogy.

Lorien: But I was on a half hour, so I was not, I didn't get the hour, but I was working every weekend and every night and rewriting and doing all the things. Yeah. So we ask this question, character introductions. Do you have a philosophy or a strategy to really, how are you introducing your characters on the page?

Carla: On the page. So not in a pitch, but in a pilot situation.

Lorien: Yeah. Like in a pilot or you're introducing a new character, like episode seven, someone comes in. What is the way that you make me like, I love them, I hate them. I can't wait to watch them.

Carla: Oh yeah. I mean, I think it's like, what is the most fun way to introduce them, like knowing who they're gonna be and their meaning to the series and their meaning to the characters on the show.

What is the most fun way to introduce them? And just speaking of the one character that I was talking about, her name is Erica on Bel Air. The, the soapy story with Aunt Viv the sorority sister who slept with Phil back in the day. The way we introduced, you don't know who she is but just finding fun ways to introduce them and in her case, Phil was working on a case.

A client had been poached and he was gonna go have a meeting with the other firm that poached his client. And when he sits down, he's waiting, and Erica sits down and no, doesn't even sit down, walks past his table and it's just oh Phil, funny thing. Oh my god, Erica, I haven't seen you in years.

And says, what are you doing? He's I'm just waiting for waiting for a client. They're waiting for, to have a meeting. And you realize she is the meeting. She is the meeting. She's the one who took the client. So it was just like a fun way to introduce her again.

Lorien: Poaching, right? Isn't that her character poaching? She's so right. She's so it's like being consistent with their who they are. And then when we find out the past, we're like, oh, that tracks.

Carla: Yes. 'cause that's who she is. Yes.

Lorien: No, I love that. It's like finding the now version of who she was, but it's like the consistent... yeah. Me showing character. Yeah. Behavior. Yeah. That's great.

Carla: It's like the meet cute, everybody. What is the meet cute with this new character? What's the best way, the most fun way to introduce them, that makes the audience look forward to, oh, this is gonna be fun.

Lorien: Yes. Oh, fun. What do you do when you get stuck?

Carla: Oh goodness. I do find, and it sounds cliche, that stepping away from it, going to do something else, going to do...

Lorien: how do you know when you're stuck though? In order? 'cause there's a point where, okay, I just have to keep grinding, I'm gonna find it, and then there's a point where I'm gonna step away and deciding is this bailing or is this the right thing to do to get some space?

What is that toggle for you?

Carla: I know sometimes, 'cause you're on a deadline, there's not time to step away. There's not time to figure it out and feel it. I just...

Lorien: and it's a luxury, the luxury of, choosing all those things or it's no, the script is due in three hours.

Carla: Yeah. So you better just make a decision and put it down. Yeah.

Lorien: I think that's it though. It's make a decision and put it down today. This is the decision today.

Carla: Yeah. And it doesn't mean that you can't come back to that tomorrow. And sometimes just putting down the decision today, even though in your heart, in your gut, you're like, eh.

That could be better. But I think then you know it when you feel it like, ah, this is it. And then you go back and you rewrite it, right? And you change it. But sometimes it is just making the decision today, but you kinda know it's just not right. Like that feeling of being stuck and it's gonna be a question mark here, but I'm gonna move on.

Or this is, I'm gonna put this here as a placeholder, but it's just not right.

Lorien: Mine is I eat chips.

Carla: Oh, that's good, snack.

Lorien: No, it's not good. Mine is I wander around, I'm like, I could eat some chips right now. That's really gonna help. No it doesn't. I don't know. Do you have time? We usually ask our guests the same three questions at the end of each show and I wanna make sure that we can grab those from you.

Carla: Yes!

Lorien: Okay. Alright. So we ask every guest same three questions at the end of the show. And the first one is, what brings you the most joy when it comes to your writing?

Carla: Oh, joy. Oh, joy. I think because writing is such and this is, I guess specific to television, probably features too and cinematic.

There's this feeling of being alone with something for so long and enjoying that and being up at 3:00 AM in your little house, in your little room at night, everybody is asleep. And you're just cranking away on something, dialogue, story, characters that, you know, in, in a few months that this is going to go public.

This is gonna go wide to millions of people, but it's just that moment when it's just and obviously on staff, you, there's other writers and ideas and that kind of thing, but there's this feeling of when it comes down to you and it's now in your hands and you've got the final pass, the final and that is just such a great feeling to me to know that it's like you have a little secret that you're working on all by yourself in your pajamas, in your swobe.

Lorien: Yes. Before anyone tells you though. That it, that there's a big old blind spot. Yes. Where anyone goes what about this? And you're like, there are stakes. Yes. It's just that I ha what? Yes. Gimme a second. Yes. Gimme, it's in there. Hold on. Yes, that's, yeah. Yes. Perfect.

Carla: But there's something special about that, to know that you're creating something, even though yes, it's going to be put before a committee of peers and people and executives and notes, but that you're creating something special that is not just for you. And I think just that, that's sort of a joyous little moment for me.

Lorien: I love that. All right.

Carla: And there's also something I think that when you hit that sweet spot, when you do get something, when you get unblocked, 'cause there's a version of writing that we've all felt that feels very surface. These are just words, these are just dialogue. I'm just connecting the dots.

But then when you start to feel something in, in your bones, like you are like, oh, I'm saying something like, I feel it in my gut when I'm writing. And it's that zone I've heard writers talk about, I'm in the zone now when it's not just words on paper that you're onto something special, that you're feeling it now.

Lorien: This is where I am right now with my project. I've found the zone. Like even when you were talking, I got very emotional. This is it. I am in that joy moment of I can't wait to pitch this and it's gonna happen and yes. Because I feel it in a way that like it's real. Yes. I will not give up.

It's that I'm in that breaking bad. This show will, I will make this happen, 'cause it's but I feel that when you were talking, I was like, that's where I am. Exactly. And because I'm a cynic with a bad attitude. I don't think I could have articulated it like you could have. But it is that like I have a secret and it's really special and I can't wait to share it.

Carla: Yeah. Which means you're gonna feel that in your pitch. Yeah. Because I think, phoning it in is one thing, but when people kinda see your passion and hear your passion, it's gonna be infectious. Yeah.

Lorien: It'd be great. Yes. I'm like an infection. I'm a virus. See, cynical, bad attitude. All. So what pisses you off about writing?

Carla: What pisses me off about writing? This sounds crazy. Many things piss me off, but I can't type. I am not a typist. What I never learned to type. I never took a typing class, so my words and my brain are working way faster than my little fingers can figure it out. So I make lots of mistakes. I have learned to use dictation on my final draft, especially when I'm tired, where I just speak the words because I can't get 'em out.

And sometimes I just don't pay attention to typos. Just get it out. Like I can get through a draft or a scene.

Lorien: Yes. Yes.

Carla: Then I go back and I'll, I like, I'll figure it out. I'll correct all the mistakes and that kind of thing. So I would say that pisses me off because I can't type. And I think the bigger thing is just lack of time.

Lack of time. And sometimes you just want to sit in the research phase of something and enjoy it and watch things, read books and really soak up so many things. And sometimes there just isn't time in this world of deadlines to just sort of just be and really immerse yourself in a creative process as opposed to jumping from one thing to when you're juggling multiple things that you don't get to luxuriate until you're on hiatus.

And that's when you start enjoying other...

Lorien: panicking? Is that when you start panicking? Is that what... that's what I was filling in the word for you and you were like, no, luxurious. See?

Carla: Yes. A little bit of panic. Yes.

Lorien: Okay. If you could give yourself your younger self advice. Like right before you were about to get that first writing job, what would it be?

Carla: I would say keep writing. Keep writing. And don't let the doubt and insecurities seep in because everything you write is going to pay off. And I think before you get that first job when nobody's paying you anything, we're already very insecure, as we've shared about writers. We're a little neurotic. And I think that is at its height when you don't know where you're going with it.

You don't know the thing that you're writing by yourself in at night when you've canceled all your plans to be with friends, when everybody else is out and you've just chosen to sit there and write something that you don't know if anybody's gonna read, if it's any good, if anybody's gonna care about it.

But you're sacrificing so much to just, sit your butt in the chair and do it. That I would tell myself it's gonna be worth it. Like when you're alone. In your thoughts, it's gonna be worth it. And the thing that you're writing right now is going to pay off for you later. And when I think about that transition into one hour that we talked about early when I was writing that one hour version, and I would go away and sit in a hotel for a weekend and just try to bang it out.

I just remember thinking, this is this may, this, is this going to even get me anywhere? I don't know. And it's the thing, I didn't know it then, but looking back, it's the thing that changed my career, it was that one hour sample that people read that said, yeah, we're gonna take a shot on her.

And even though she's never done this before, but when you're in it, you don't know. It just feels ugh. I just go to bed.

Lorien: Yeah. How long did it take you to write that one hour?

Carla: I went away in the weekend and did a draft of it. I had an outline for it. So I, and I went, once I had the outline, I would say probably three weeks to a month. To a draft that I could show my agent and say, let's go out with this one too.

Lorien: And how many, when you say a month, how many hours a day were you writing it?

Carla: Oof. It was an everyday grind. It was a wake up. 'cause I was working, I was, I think I was I working? I don't even know if I was working.

It felt like it was an everyday grind and some days it was, this makes no sense. And sometimes it was just sitting at a computer and going, staring at a blank screen and closing the computer and going for a

walk.

Yeah, I would say it was probably. Four to five hours a day just grinding, thinking about it, looking at it, tearing it apart, hating it, rewriting it, adding a scene, going and watching something that felt like it.

Going through all the emotions of it. Yeah.

Lorien: I think this is so important for writers to hear all of us because, the idea of creating attainable and realistic goals based on how much time you actually are giving yourself is, I think, where we have to start. 'cause we think, oh we hear that people can write a feature in six weeks, nine weeks, whatever.

What does that actually look like practically in a day? Is it a couple hours? Is it a binge weekend? But, and for everyone it's different. But saying it took me four weeks is different than every day I have my butt in the chair, four to five hours. Not including the time you're thinking and walking and stressing and panicking and loving it and hating it.

And so it's yes. What does it look like for everyone is gonna be different. I write very quickly and I will write an enormous amount of pages and then I'm like, what is actually. Usable here. It's like the last five pages are like, oh, that's the scene I've written 25. So but I need the time to write all that stuff out to get to the piece, unless that's my own stuff, if I'm being paid, no, you gotta write it right away.

You gotta have the outline. You gotta know right away. But I just think that's such incredible and powerful information for people to know and understand that it it's not, I was working full time and I was writing an hour every night, which some people can do, I guess. But just the idea of yeah, that process.

Yeah, process. Achievable, realistic goals given the life you have right now. Not that fantasy version of yourself. Yes, exactly. Exactly. That's my little soap box. I love it. It's a great one because it's very cool. Soapy, I think is the theme of this yes. Okay. I have a couple more questions. What's your favorite writing snack?

Carla: Ooh, my favorite writing snack. I like apple chips. These Granny Smith Apple chips that I happen to have right here.

Lorien: Apple chips. Okay, so you say the word chips, but I'm kind of suspicious 'cause I like a kettle chip. I like a dill pickle kettle chip. I don't know of apple chips. That's not a chip. It's the, we fight about this for a minute.

Carla: It's not like the dried chewy fruit. It's not like the dried apple. It's the crunchy apple chip where it...

Lorien: okay, I'm gonna try it. I'll let you know.

Okay. I feel like I should write a buzzfeed, a article like top 10 chips. What is a chip? All right. And what was the, what's the, oh, what's your favorite swear word?

Carla: Fuck. Love it. Beyond a doubt.

Lorien: I like how fast you're like, fuck. It has, it's it can have so many meanings. It can use it in so many different ways. It's it's so versatile. Yeah. Awesome. Is there anything else that, before we say thank you, is there anything else you were hoping to... wisdom, questions, process?

Carla: I don't think so. It's been such a great conversation with you. Oh, good. Been delightful.

Lorien: Oh good.

Carla: I don't think so. I think it's great.

Lorien: Thank you so much to Carla Banks-Waddles for coming on today's show. It was a great conversation. Season four of Bel Air will be coming to Peacock fall of 2025, so make sure to subscribe to Peacock and watch it.

And remember you are not alone and keep writing.