275 | How Holiday Movies Get Made (ft. Screenwriter Maggie Lane & Producer Eric Jarboe)

This week we’re celebrating one of our favorite genres: holiday movies! 

Screenwriter Maggie Lane (HOTEL FOR THE HOLIDAYS) and producer Eric Jarboe (FALLING FOR CHRISTMAS, THE PRINCESS SWITCH) join us to pull back the curtain on how Christmas films are conceived, pitched, developed, budgeted, and shot - sometimes in as little as 13 days.

We dig into what networks actually want, how to craft a great rom-com holiday premise, what makes a title irresistible, how to build producible scripts, and why collaboration (and quick rewrites!) are everything. It’s a warm, funny, highly practical episode full of insider intel and festive filmmaking stories.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Lorien: Hey everyone. Welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Lorien McKenna, and today we are celebrating one of our favorite genres, holiday movies. We're joined by two incredible guests who know this world inside out, screenwriter Maggie Lane, and producer Eric Jarboe. Maggie is a screenwriter and producer who began her career in development at the Jim Henson Company, and later at WETA as a creative executive.

She wrote Hotel for the Holidays on Amazon and produced the short film Melita, which premiered at the Venice International Film Festival. Her second feature, NAS is optioned by Happy Accidents. She's currently taking out her latest project, a period romantic comedy called Accord, which was a semi-finalist at the 2025 Austin Film Festival.

Eric is the co-CEO of Happy Accidents, the studio behind 10 films and the upcoming dramedy Gnomes starring Asa Butterfield. Before launching the company with partner Holly Hines, Eric spent a decade at the Motion Picture Corporation of America, MPCA as Chief Operating Officer, where he executive produced over 130 films and more than 120 episodes of television.

His predatorial highlights include Netflix's first wave of original holiday films, a Christmas Prince, the Princess Switch franchise, and Lindsay Lohan's Falling for Christmas. In addition to 10 seasons of When Calls to Heart, which has been the number one series on basic cable, Eric has also overseen major deals with Netflix, Disney, Sony, paramount, Hallmark, Lifetime, Peacock, and Amazon Freebie, and previously consulted on the launch of Great American Family helping raise 135 million to acquire and rebrand two national cable networks.

Welcome to the show, Maggie and Eric. 

Maggie: Thank you for having us.

Eric: Thank you so much. 

Lorien: I'm really excited to talk to you about Holiday movies. Uh, but first we're gonna do adventures in screenwriting where we talk about our weeks. So I'll start my week. I was on a crazy deadline, like pushing, pushing, pushing all day, working, you know, late into the morning.

I delivered it just before I hopped on the show. So I feel super great. Uh, but the other thing I did earlier this week was I agreed to foster a puppy. Uh, she's three months old. I've never had a puppy before. I've never fostered a dog before. I make great decisions. Um, on the one hand, uh, it's forced me to stay where I am, like sitting on the couch, writing, working, uh, because if I get up, I'll wake her up and that would be the worst thing in the world.

Like, you don't wanna activate the shark monster. On the other hand, like, I don't know what I'm doing, and I may or may not keep this puppy. I think everyone suspects what's gonna happen, but I'm going on record that as of right now, today, I don't know whether or not we're adopting her. We've had her for five days.

Yeah. Okay. It's a lot. It is a lot. Maggie, how was your week? 

Maggie: It was great. Um, right now, um, Eric's a producer on my next film, which is called nas, which is a Jewish Chinese rom-com and we're looking at directors. So that's super exciting. So there's like grids and as a writer, it's, it's very cool. Um, I'm also, um, likely gonna be an EP on this one.

So it's fun that, uh, my last film I was very much a writer, and so it's fun that I have my hands kind of in the pudding now. Is it the pudding? Is it the pie? The soup? I, it's, it makes me feel very collaborative. Lakas, the, the, yeah, the lakas. It, it makes me feel, uh, really helpful and exciting to be looking at people and also just getting to meet directors because it, you know, writing when something doesn't exist yet is incredibly satisfying, but it feels like an almost so every step you get closer to seeing it actually exist is just tremendously exciting. And then, um, right before this, I had a call with an up and coming writer-director named Daisy Friedman, who I met because she was at Sundance and had something at South by Southwest.

She's only 22 and is already wrapped and already has some heat. And I was just so inspired. So the Gen Z, she also said. I said something and she said, slay, which I assume is, uh, I'm a millennial, so I think, I think I won today. 

Lorien: My teen daughter says, slay. And you only get that compliment when it's for real.

Maggie: Okay. I feel much better about myself. Thank you. Oh, 

Lorien: That's really awesome. And sounds really cool. Thank you. Eric, how was your week? 

Eric: Uh, busy. Uh, I'm in, uh, Budes Hungry. Uh, we have a, uh, a new, um, holiday Christmas film that will be for 2026 that came together very, very quickly. And, um, it's set in a European city with a beautiful Christmas market.

And that's why we're here. Uh, so we're in our second week of prep. Um, we've, we've confirmed all of our locations. We've done our tech scouts. Uh, next week we're gonna do all our final art and prop show and tells and figure that out. We're trying to lock the budget tomorrow. Um, so lots and lots of. Lots of, lots of time and, and crazy details and, and, uh, fires to put out.

But, um, we're actually, I think what we are gonna deliver is gonna be incredibly beautiful, far more, uh. Beautiful locations and we were expecting, I think we were gonna try to get three when we got out here. And now I think we're gonna get like nine to 10. So it's gonna look amazing. And uh, and also, uh, they do snow a little differently out here, but we uh, I think we actually figured out some snow plane where we actually might have more snow in this film than most of our others, uh, that we shoot in Canada.

So we're very excited about that.

Maggie: Is the snow real right now?

Eric: No. Uh, there actually might be some real snow on the ground when we shoot. It is. It's in the forecast. Uh, but our plan is to never plan on that. 'cause you can't. If we get it, great, uh, it's a happy accident, no pun intended. But if, uh, if, uh, if not, we have, it's a combination of practical special effects, uh, snow blankets, uh, foam, uh, things that like add water, turns into snow.

And then, uh, we also have, uh, uh, visual effects. And the visual effects actually is. Improved dramatically in just the last, uh, couple years. Uh, there's a very good chance another two to three years, we actually don't have to use any practical snow anymore. We can just do it all in post. We're not there yet, but we are, we are very close.

Lorien: I love that we started with, um, your movie that you're working on together and then you're in, you're about to lock the budget and shoot for this other movie. 'cause I'm really so curious about breaking down the, oh, I have an idea for a Christmas movie to getting a producer to being in development, to writing it and notes and, and then all the way to, you know, getting a budget and a director and all the way through production.

And that's a lot to cover in an hour. How do you, are you already on location and you haven't locked the budget yet? 

Eric: We never locked the budget for the last week of prep because we have a, we have a general plan and we can't go above what that plan is. We set what we're gonna spend, right? So we're not gonna go above that.

Yes. Um, but until you pick your locations, uh, you don't know exactly how you're gonna address everything. You actually don't know all the details. So basically we, we spend, we have three weeks of prep on these films. Which is actually quite fast. And so generally we're crossing t's and Dotting i's for two and a half weeks of that.

And then usually somewhere in the middle of the third week of prep it's, it's fully locked. And you know, honestly the budget changes every day. So the budget, budget, just, this is where we think on this day things are gonna be in the plan is, and then what we do is we actually track costs in a cost report.

That actually then becomes the reality over time. And then we just make sure it doesn't go above the, the total number. But yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's just a snapshot in time of what we think it's the plan's gonna be. Right. 

Maggie: I have a short anecdote from my first film that Eric also produced, actually, um, hotel for the Holidays, which was co-written by me and, uh, margarita Matthews, who's fantastic.

Um, so. I had written, we did a 12 days of Christmas party in the script and we're like, oh, it's so funny. It's like she's gonna have a partridge and a pear tree and like two turtle doves, and we're watching remotely the dailies. I'm like, oh my God, that song has so many fucking birds. Like, I didn't realize how many birds when we wrote it.

I'm like, this is such a fun theme for the party. So I'm like watching the dailies and I'm like, there's so many fucking birds in this scene. And I'm like, oh my God, the fucking 12 days of Christmas. So that was like the moment for me. And by the way, they couldn't get a partridge. They got a parrot. And so we had to change the line anyways, it was very funny, but I remember just watching.

And so that was a realization for me as the writer of whenever you're writing something, you know, if all your wishes and hopes come true and it gets made, um, sometimes the joke is, is in reality, kind of horrifying. 

Eric: I do wanna clarify. Despite there being a parrot, it was not a parody. 

Lorien: Oh, he's got jokes, everybody.

Eric: I have a young daughter. Anyway. 

Lorien: So that's a great, uh, segue into this question, which is, you have a great idea, right? A setup, a character, an idea. How do you go from that to, okay, this is a holiday movie that's gonna work. Maggie, as a writer, 

Maggie: For me, I am a big believer.

I do this thing and I'm sure other writers on the podcast have spoken about this as I watch movies and find the scripts, uh, fun. Half, just enter the movie name, PDF, you'll probably find it. Reddit is also amazing for scripts. So it was basically when I realized. About holiday films. I had met Lorenzo Nini, who's at MPCA.

Eric was there at the time, and I was like, I really, you know, he's like, if you ever have an idea, I just loved him as a person and I was like, I wonder if we can come up with an idea for a holiday movie. So we actually, for hotel, for the holidays, margarita and I came up with maybe 12 different ideas that were quick pitches.

And they were all things that, based on us watching a lot of holiday movies, reading scripts, we were like, this works. And I haven't seen this quite like this for holiday films. I'm always gonna say high concept, uh, hot, frosty. So coming up with a list of let's say like 12 high concept ideas is always like a fun thing to do if you meet someone in the holiday space.

Um, I know Hallmark also will take pitches. And then MPCA was kind enough to commission a script based on one of those ideas. I'm from Connecticut. Spent, you know, went to college in New York, had always, I love hotels. I was like, what if it was like hotel for the holidays? And then by the way, a title is everything for Christmas movies.

It's so important. And I get complimented on my titles a lot, and I do not take that lightly because when people are scrolling through, you wanna kind of get their attention. Eric will speak more to this. So usually if I have a high concept, good title. Um, and I'm a true romantic. I love rom-coms. I love writing them, and I'm very collaborative and I always wanna get notes from producers.

I used to work in development, so I'm always so open to notes. And I think all of those mesh together is kind of the secret sauce. I mean, it's the high concept. High concept, um, something really romantic. Also, something that like, don't reinvent the wheel, um, is, is something I want you to challenge yourself.

But like alien abduction, like Christmas is something we definitely pitch and like a hot alien comes, this could still work, but it's a little out there. So I would say something that twists the mold, but that fits into actual tropes. Like and make it the best version of that. And I think you're probably gonna have more success in the market.

Lorien: So, Eric, when you're looking for a something you wanna sign onto as a producer and then taking it for develop through development, what is that process like for you? 

Eric: Absolutely. I mean, it's, um, there's a, it's a variety of different ways depending on the project, depending on the writer and all that. So, um, but if we're talking just to holiday Christmas films, right?

We wanna stay in that, that, uh, theme for a second. We mostly look for finished scripts at this point in time because there are so few networks now that will commission a pitch. Um, there is also a lot of. Spec scripts out there. So for instance, in our first year, I think we reviewed about, uh, like 600 scripts to find our slate of 40 movies to go out to the marketplace with.

So we're getting less than 10% of what walks in the door is actually we're gonna work on. It is a process that is the, I mean, it is a little tedious to go through the haystack to find the needles. Um, but you know, one of the issues with developing stuff from scratch right now is you don't know if it's gonna be good or not.

And then, um, and so you could be spending a lot of time on something and it doesn't necessarily get there. And time is, time is far too valuable right now. Um, I, I do echo what Maggie said. I mean, you know, my background, I have, you know, I have an MBA I'm, I'm a producer, so we, we tend to do all the stuff for free first and try to make the opportunities.

Um, I, I do think those that are willing to do that will have more opportunities and we'll have more success in the long term for sure. Um, and, uh, but I, I think you just have to be very consistent. Um, as far, we're always trying to pre-sell at least half the budget to a network before we go make something.

We don't just like make something completely on spec and we always look for the most part on Christmas stuff. Most of the films are rom-coms too, and we, we actually want that romance. Um, there are certain themes that we always wanna travel around. Royals always do very well for us domestically and internationally.

Um, you know, small town, all that stuff works well. We do try to change the model slightly, but as Maggie said, you cannot, you cannot alienate the core audience. There is a core audience that shows up for these films. You have to build from there. Um, and, but what's hard about it is everybody is always looking for the slight tweak, the slightly different thing.

A hundred of these are made every year. Over a hundred Christmas movies around, you know, all networks and, um, and you can't have 'em all be the same. They can't be all completely formulaic and you, you really need a couple characters that each have a need or a want that the other characters around them are gonna help fulfill.

And, and that's really important to us. Like each character needs to get something outta the other. It needs to help grow that person organically in the story. It's, it's, it's a process for sure. And then, you know, and then we'll, we'll, we'll develop the pitch a bit more with develop the script. We usually do a few rounds of notes, and then we go out and pitch it.

The pitching process is, it takes a bit more time than it used to. There used to be a little bit more deadlines. It's actually harder to get responses than, um, post, uh, pandemic and post-strike than it was pre. There's also been a lot of turnover at the networks and, and a lot of, a lot of up and coming execs are not as good at getting back as, as I would say they used to be.

And so, um, we just have to be consistent. You need to get FaceTime and you get in front of people and then eventually things will, things will work out. 

Lorien: So this is for both of you, uh, on pitching. A lot of writers right now are what I've been noticing. I work with a lot of emerging writers and, uh, that there is a focus on theme and emotion and a kind of, uh, not as much a focus as paid to plot.

Uh, and so when they're pitching or sharing ideas with me, it's like, this is about grief. This is about all these deeper things, which I love. But when you're pitching a Romcom holiday movie, that seems like it would be a part that you would pitch, do you touch on later, not open with it? Like how do you open, how do you start a pitch?

Do you agree with that or not? 

Maggie: I actually have a, a good tip here, which I am really excited to share with writers and start with your personal connection to the story. So for me, for na, I said I grew up. You know, in Connecticut, I'm Jewish and I was a Jew who loved Christmas, and I didn't get to celebrate it.

So I always felt it was like a snow globe and I was outside the snow globe. What was fun about Christmas Eve is we would go out for Chinese food in New York City. So it was this thing with my family where we got to do something special, we got to see the lights, and it felt like it was for us. So I started pitching Noosh based on that feeling.

So I started with the feeling with a personal connection. And by the way, every Jewish person, or everyone who's been out for Chinese food with their Jewish friends, or Christmas or whatever, immediately was like. Oh yeah, I've done that before. And then I, that was the hook that really brought in the story and I said it's a, and also I think, uh, romance, which is having a huge resurgence right now.

Look at the romance kind of constructs. Enemies to Lovers is a great one for Christmas movies. Um, it happens a lot, I think more in Christmas, enemies to lovers. Um. Obviously you're gonna, your hometown, we dated, something happened, we're reconnecting. So look at romance tropes and literally be like, what is the one that I kind of wanna explore here?

And that really helps. And then I will go into, well, pitching, here's, it's an, you know, they were best friends coming back together. United in a Chinese restaurant on Christmas Eve, you know, the woman's Jewish. And then we have like a hot, you know, uh, chef, uh, you know, who's working Chinese. She has to go and work in the kitchen with him.

And by the way, this is a movie that's gonna make everyone really excited to eat dumplings, watch the movie. And then I kind of talk about how the audience will react a little bit. And I'm like, this is gonna, this is a Christmas movie for everyone. In my, you know, example. So think about what the audience like.

I'm so excited for people to eat this, you know, eat warm cookies and snuggle in and watch this. And I think when you bring it back to that and ground it in both your experience, what the audience will experience, I don't think you can go wrong. 

Lorien: So instead of saying like, this is about, you know, the grief of not getting over your old relationship and the fear of stepping into something new, it's more about, you know, I'm excited for the audience to snuggle in and, you know.

Remember with, you know, nostalgia or appreciation or hope or those kinds of things? 

Maggie: Well, Christmas movies are really, I, I mean, you can have a dark night of the soul a little bit, but I really think they're, they're more, you know, cozy night of the soul. So I would focus on, uh, that, I mean, they really are warm, uh, you know, content for the most part.

Not that you can't explore darker themes, of course. But I do think pulling in the personal anecdote say, I remember when I was 17, my heart was broken. This is what happened to me. And that really is the linchpin. I'm just saying if you bring in the personal to it, people are gonna think that it's real and it has value and instantly ears perk up when you say it's a personal story.

Eric: It's important to bring that authenticity to it. Um, absolutely. I mean, I think, um, I'm Warner Brothers before anybody pitches any of their series, that the first thing on the pitch document is, is why me? And why, why this story now? Um, however, I would, I would actually argue plot's the least important part of a pitch plot is A to B, B2C, C 2D.

Like, it's, it's almost tedious. So I actually don't think it's any, it's wrong to go. This is about loss and this, and just to have that little sentence to just kind of set the table, um, as you kind of get into it, because it's gonna be easy for people to start getting lost in your plot. And if they kind of know where you're gonna go and what you're trying to do at the beginning, they're gonna follow you a lot better.

Um, and I've actually seen, I've seen people successfully pitch. Doing all these things differently. It's sometimes it's just how compelling you are in the room and how kind of exciting you are about the material and the storytelling. I, the, the, the best pitches are the people that you can just tell, really wanna tell this are super excited.

It's any kind of like sales. Kind of thing, right? You want to go in the room, you wanna be really excited about what you're gonna do, and this is what I've been wanting to tell for like years or whatnot. Um, and that, that, that I think is the most important thing, is seeing the passion in the room and the excitement behind it.

And then, you know, everything else will, will fall into line. 

Lorien: So what are mistakes writers make when they are pitching to a producer or a network? Eric can take this and then I, 

Eric: yeah, I dunno. Maybe you have PTSD Maggie, I mean, uh, you know, I-

Maggie: No, I've had things go wrong in pitches. Of course. 

Eric: Yeah. And I mean, not being prepared, but sometimes not being prepared is not good. Right. If, 'cause then it's like, well did, if you half-ass this pitch, are you gonna half-ass everything else we have to do hereafter. But that's, that's rare. I mean, what I will say is I think a lot of the times people think, um, certain themes will work that, that the networks actually don't want, especially for Christmas films.

So like, and you can always find exceptions to these rules. However, what you will find is there will be. Like 80 films of what I'm saying is the majority, and you'll find one or two exceptions a year. So do you really wanna go after the exception if you're trying to get your green light? Right. Um, a lot of the networks they don't wanna do inside Hollywood, they don't really want a Christmas movie about like an actress in a Hollywood reconnecting to their hometown.

It just doesn't feel as connected to a lot of people and they really try to stay away from the inside baseball of it all. Um. Depressed movies like, like that have depressed themes are hard, but, you know, people wanna wanna be happy and cheerful and see that kiss in the end. So it's, it's, and you can have those themes and, and it's important to have.

Loss with faith and, and joy. Um, but you have to thread it in such a way that people are not gonna be turned off or move to something else, or, you know, get super depressed about it. Uh, my business partner Holly Hines, she has a brilliant saying, which is Yes, yes. Uh, you have vitamins in the ice cream, it's just vitamins.

It's not gonna go very far. Um, and then, you know, if, if they've done something, something similar recently, a certain network, they're probably not gonna wanna do something that similar too soon. But, you know, if you're Hallmark and you're making, you know. 80 to a hundred films a year, and 40 to 50 of them are Christmas.

You know, two, three years from now, they can do another baking. They can do something that's, that's, that's similar. But if you go to a network that only does like two or three a year, then they might have to wait five to 10 years before they're gonna do something. That's kind of a similar theme. 

Lorien: How does a writer with a spec script go about finding a producer or people to talk to?

Eric: So I, I'd actually recommend, like, if you're a young writer, just trying to get going. One of the best ways to get going is to write a spec feature script, and the reason is if it's all on the page and it's producible, we can go make the movie. It doesn't work as well when you're doing a series pilot because if you're brand new and, and you, even if you have a amazing pilot script, how, I don't know if you can do that 10 to 22 times a year and generally we're only gonna, you know, a network's gonna want some type of season showrunner attached if you're brand new.

And it's hard to do that because the season showrunners wanna work on their own ideas. They're not gonna wanna just work with someone that just is off the boat. Right. So. Um, I, I highly recommend that if you're young, you, you try to put the pen and paper and build something that's brilliant. Uh, then you try to get some representation.

Then, and then, you know, there are, there are a lot of reps that will work with young writers and that like doing that. And then, you know, we get the pitches from there. We do not take unsolicited submissions. It's a huge liability to us. It's generally the people that don't really know how things work is where you could get into trouble.

And I'm sorry, but most of our romcoms are somewhat similar. You have to, people fall in love, they have a misunderstanding and they get back together at the end. It's almost every format. Right. So and, and the other thing too is. Even the scripts that we get submitted by agents. Like 90% of them we can't touch, and this percentage might even be higher than that.

They're not like commercially viable, and that's why we're always going, like, again, we're getting less than 10%. Right. So actually it's definitely over 90% when it told Youor out of 600 in a haystack. So. The best way to get going is to write your feature script, have it be good, and then have people, people buy it and try to produce it.

And then you start building your credits and it is a momentum machine. Like it's very hard to get started. And then once a few dominoes fall, all of a sudden you're in the club and people like it and there is an appetite for these every year. And then all of a sudden you start getting a couple a year and, and it becomes a career.

Maggie: So I will say getting a rep is. So, uh, tricky right now, more so than ever. So I will, I'm not disagreeing, but I will, I will add on to what Eric is saying, that right now there's a lot of reps who are not taking clients that in the past would have and taking swings. So I have a different idea, but I think you should do whatever you can do if you're in a major city and there's any type of film independent, like if you're in LA, join film independent immediately, um, start going to events.

And start meeting other people that are in the industry and say if they are, have a career or they've done it, say, Hey, so like, who produced your movie? And you know, do you like them? Are they cool? And you know, the way that I got reconnected to Happy Accidents is I used to work, um, for PCO Pictures, which was part of Wetas TV division.

I had met Holly Hines. I was in a mentorship group and then, um, somebody uh, introduced me and was like, oh, do you know Holly Hines? 'cause I feel like this would be a great script for her. I'm like, I actually met Holly years ago, so it was through a referral and obviously I have a manager, which was very, very helpful as well.

It was not unsolicited, but what I'll say is, uh, don't undervalue script competitions. So reps go to these conferences. So go for Sundance, go for Austin. And I think the best way to get a rep right now is to place in a festival and then meet them on the ground. So if you get into a festival, go. 'cause I'm seeing people that this is the fastest way people are getting reps.

The girl I talked to earlier today, she had a short in South by Southwest. That's how she got her manager. 

Eric: So there are some societies you can join out, especially in LA like, uh, JRT. Where you just start getting into the network of, of, of people that are all trying to do what you're doing and, you know, meet them while you're all young and have no money and have no credits.

And then all of a sudden, five years from now, a bunch of people start having, and you kind of start building up that way too. Um, and I know that there's others, but that, that's also another great way. Networking’s important. It's so social. 

Lorien: So, uh, you pitch, you, you write an amazing script, you get a brilliant producer.

You get it set up, you sell it somewhere. Then what happens? 

Eric: Well then we gotta go make it. Like we gotta go make it. Um, and you know, the benefit to pitching a producer with a producer, you know, when you go into the room with the, with the team, then the network knows that there's, that you can execute. And like, it's really important, like when we go to do, to pitch a series, like again, if we don't have that seasoned showrunner, then no one believes us in the room that we can necessarily execute this X amount of, number of times and whatnot.

So, um, and also sometimes, sometimes we, uh, we, we will give a bit of a better payday than if they take it in house and try to keep everything to themselves. Uh, not always. I don't wanna say that's a hard rule, but I mean, that is something, sometimes we can be a little bit more flexible, but it's hard to make everything right.

So. Um, then we're gonna start the process of, okay, based on the creative of the script, where's the best place to shoot it creatively, and it could be anywhere around the world. We'll, we'll look at everything we've done everything in Europe, Africa, Asia, uh, north America. Just haven't done South America.

And we've done Australia, so I just need to do South America. And then we've, we've covered it all. And then it's, it's a whole vetting process. And we're gonna start the budgeting process. We'll break down the script into a schedule, start getting a preliminary budget, make sure that the overall numbers can work.

They're always gonna fluctuate by a couple percentage points, but you just, you can't be like 10, 20% off where you need to be. Um, and then. And then we, uh, we figure out how to finance it. So, um, generally, um, it's a, it's a combination of the commissioning license fee, the tax credits, and some equity from ourselves against international.

Um, and then, and then we'll go figure out our timing. Go cast. And then once we get our cast and we have our dates, uh, then we start our prep process. And our prep process really is still figuring out and finalizing the plan. As we said earlier, crossing those t's, dotting those i's, and that usually takes somewhere between three to five weeks.

Lorien: You have a writer, they've written a script, you're the producer. You go in, uh, the studio, the platform, the streamer, whatever, is like, great, we're gonna do it. Um, they're not putting all the money up, right? 

Eric: If we go to Netflix, they buy the whole world and they pay for everything. If we go to Hallmark, they pay for just the us.

Rest of the world is free and they pay for about half the movie. Um, so it, it totally depends. At the end of the day, we, the producer, we're the studio, and at the end of the day we're, we're like the holder of the copyright, and it's up to us. To, um, produce everything and finance it. So we take the risk of, we take the financial risk of production.

If there's overages, it totally just comes out of our pocket network's, insulated from overages. And uh, and then we usually use a bank. Um, 'cause everything, you know, we usually use a bank to bank the tax credits, bank, the license fee. And then we do sometimes often have to put, um, cash in to fill a gap and to then fill out the rest.

So. Um, you know, that's, that is all on us. 

Lorien: So how does a writer approach a speck to make it producible? 

Maggie: To write? You mean writing again? Writing it-

Lorien: Yes. Like I have this amazing high concept. Um, how many characters should I think about? Do I have to be, how constrained my by characters and sets and all those kinds of things.

Maggie: That's a great question. So for, uh, hotel, for the holidays, you know, uh, Lorenzo and Nini had, had really said that, you know, they wanted something a little bit like love, actually. They wanted a bunch of characters. So I actually broke that. We broke that up into a story, B story, C story. So we did have the main characters and then we had the B story and the C story.

So I really do believe that you can have, as you know, you can have a lot of characters, but just realize that you always have to have the spotlight on the two, even if you have other characters. Now, again, love actually is the exception to that, so I don't wanna constrain you. I would think more in terms of like, I, I prefer, I think you're safer having more characters and just don't have crazy set pieces.

Like really be careful with set pieces and also understand that, you know, when you have them skating and Rockefeller Center. How likely is that actually gonna be shot? It's probably gonna end up being a skating rink in Canada, which is great, but just have that expectation. Um, and you know, I remember we had like a central park chase scene which was completely cut 'cause it was just too expensive and it was during COVID times and there's just no way it could have been shot.

And I learned that now. Um, I'm really into interiors when it comes to Christmas movies. I think like the more interiors, the better. And also remember there's gonna be like a bar. There's gonna be a central restaurant. Um, there's gonna be like a street. You can have a Christmas market. If you watch a lot of holiday films, look at what sets they're using and then if there's a way to have those, because.

Spoiler alert, Eric can speak more to this. They reuse a lot of those sets. Um, so that is another thing that you can think of. 

Eric: Yeah, and I would actually argue like, um, the, the budgets range, like we, we set, you know, normal Hallmark budget in the 3 million range, give or take. Um, but like if we go to Netflix, I mean they can be 60, 80 million or plus.

Um, so. I would argue if you have a really, really great idea and you're new, you are like, you don't understand or you don't, you know, you don't know all the production stuff and what costs a lot and what doesn't. Um, so if your producer team likes it, like they should be the ones to be like, okay, before we go to this network, we do have to reduce a few of these elements because it's just not producible at their budget level, but.

We're gonna keep all these things in when we go to the streamers, uh, because these places are looking to spend the money. And so I, I wouldn't get too hung up on that and, and, 'cause I think it's always, it's always easy to pare down things and find, uh, creative ways to get the budget to where it needs to be, um, without necessarily be sacrificing the story and what you're trying to get across.

Um, and, and let your producer be the one to kind of tell you how to get it into the box. 

Maggie: I like that note. I think that I've begun, I think that as a writer, yeah, you have to go to the page and you really do have to have that free mind. And I think that now that I've been a pretty on the prettying side, I'm like, oh God.

I'm always like, I'm editing myself a little and maybe a little too much. But yeah, I mean, I think that there's that joyous quality of just writing what you wanna write and like it will be the best because it will be you.

Lorien: Let's talk about how quickly these movies are shot.

Some of them have like very intense short shooting schedules, and then some of the bigger budget ones have longer ones. Like what is the shoots shorting schedule you've ever had? 

Eric: Um, I. 13 days. No, stop it for a whole movie. We don't like going below 15 to 14. One of the actors can only work for two weeks.

Um, and so there, and it was mostly a two-hander, so there wasn't more than one day that we could shoot without them. Um, obviously we try to avoid that, but even the big bigger budget streamer movies that we do. Um, you know, a lot of them are four to five week shoots. They're not like, much, much longer. Um, you know, I'd say three to six weeks is where most of the stuff is that's going to a streamer or a network.

Maggie: Well, you talk about the Christmas warehouse actually, Eric, isn't there like a warehouse in Vancouver where all the Christmas stuff lives? 

Eric: Um, believe it or not, um, it's not as so yes and no, but you would think that it would be a bit better. Like we actually still have to buy a bunch of stuff for her. Um, and it's not it because it gets, you know, who, who, who has the warehouse space?

Who's paying for that? Who's storing it? Actually, sometimes it's sadly, um. More cost effective to, to not store. Believe it or not, the theaters are much better. Theaters are so much better about using things than film and tv. 

Lorien: I actually love this question 'cause Meg, you're like, isn't there a warehouse? Like it was all you spar like immediately we could see it.

Yeah, but here's the reality. Who has the space? Who's buying it? Like it's the difference between like, I have this amazing idea and then like, okay, let's talk practically. Like, I, I thought that was such a great relationship. 

Maggie: It, it really feels like that's the writer, producer relationship. And that's why I think as a writer, just keeping your optimism, keeping your faith, keeping the energy, um, is really important because I think that it helps producers do what they need to do.

And also do not take notes personally. It will make it better when you have the right producer. Do not, I, I can't believe there's still writers that can't take notes or don't wanna take notes. 

Eric: We probably won't bring out your project if you don't execute our notes. It's gotta be collaborative and, oh, this is actually a great point, Maggie.

Believe it or not, a lot of the times the people that we have the most, um, pain with, with taking the notes are people right outta school. And those that work on it, especially work on a series. Um, if you're in a writer's room on a series and you're pitching something, you're getting notes almost every day from the showrunner.

Then number two, and then you're getting it from the studio, and then you're getting it from the network and you, you, you have to, you know, execute the vast majority of it. If you're a, a big wig and you have a different opinion, you can, you can push back and say why. Um, but you know, not all the time.

Certainly. Um, well, you say, that's good. 

Lorien: I'll look into that. And then I thought about your note and here's what I did to solve it. 

Eric: Well, that's still collaborative because you're still listening to what the issue is and, and you can always come up with a different solution and all that. And we, you know, we often say, here's what we're bumping up against.

We don't want to tell you what the solve is because then we're boxing you in and then you're not letting you user creative things and whatnot. And so we'll say, here's the bad example to fix, but you can come up with something more brilliant. 

Maggie: I, Oh, I love that way of giving notes. Yeah. I really learned that, I learned that from Adam Fra when I, when I worked for him.

Uh, who's an amazing producer. We love Adam, but. He taught me, like when you're giving me a wrote note to write, like, here's the bad version, which completely makes writers feel much better about themselves. By the way. You're saying it's a bad version. It's usually the very good version. 

Eric: And one of the other things too is like obviously all the guilds publish their minimums and everybody has access to that.

But I actually, you know, I kind of wish that the guilds would publish, like here's the many, many mean median and range of fees that people are getting. Like they have all that data. They should share it with, with, with their members so that you, 'cause the issue is, especially if I have a new writer, it doesn't have representation.

They don't know what a good deal or not. And so usually it's the insecurity comes from just the ignorance of just not knowing everything. Right. And I don't say ignorance is a bad thing. Like, I'm ignorant about many things that I just don't know about. Right. So, um, it. I think knowledge is power and if people saw, well actually, you know, the deal I was offered is what, you know, 80 to 90% of what people that do this get don't get more than that.

It might be more willing to close deals. I also think that in this industry there's a lot of friction for closing deals. The deals are not much different from deal to deal. There's only a handful of things we're always arguing over and it just slows things down so much. You know, you're working on a script deal for three, four months.

That's ridiculous. It should be like a week or two so we can move on. Maggie's great. Have a shorthand with Matt, but you Oh, 

Maggie: well. Like it was, it's, the thing with me is I knew these guys were my dream producers. I knew that they were a perfect fit. As soon, you know, I had one of those. I just immediately had one.

I think always trust your gut as a writer, like trust your gut. And I immediately knew, you know, I'd worked with Eric. I'd always loved Holly, always wanted to work with Eric Meredith. Awesome. Like everyone was so great and they just saw what I was going for, and so I knew they were the right producers on it.

I will say. Your first film are you, you know, the million dollar spec scales, like, please don't get clouded by that. Your first script sale. You will probably make less money than you would enjoy. And guess what? Getting a script, a movie produced that you can point to is worth millions and millions of dollars in terms of how much easier it makes your life.

Because I immediately, because I had a film produced, can have conversations with executives all the time and I have something to point to and they wanna read my material, and that has made my life so much easier. So I think if you're causing friction for your first ever sale, I think you're doing yourself a disservice.

Obviously, take what's fair. That's great. But I hear writers for their first films, and I've talked to writers that have worked on big series and their first films, they did not get paid a lot of money, and it got them into writers' rooms where they then made a lot of money. Is that bad advice? I, I feel like I don't want, I don't want, no, it's a balance, 

Lorien: And you know, your first deal, your first job, you know, I mean, I know we're not supposed to have any, what's it called anymore? I'm not supposed to say it. Movie. No, no, no movie. Think it's totally fair. Everyone has different perspective and different advice, right? And. When I sold my first TV show, I didn't have a, a manager or a lawyer.

So I, and I remember we got the offer and I was like, okay, what happened? You know, oh, they wanna buy it, it's big network. And then I had no idea what to expect. Like, is it $5? Is it a million dollars? Yeah. What is the dollars? What do the dollars mean? Right? And I. Finally getting the contract and finally understanding that there's so many different complicated aspects to it.

Then I got a lawyer halfway through the deal. But, um, uh, it's, it's very, it's a mystery and that's why we, one of the reasons we started the podcast is because there's just so much that's not talked about. Like go to the WGA minimum schedule and look at what the minimums. For a feature that, you know, WJ writers are getting, and what do you reasonably think you could expect?

Talk to people. Ask people. And if people ask you how much you got paid for something, share it. I I, there's a real weird thing about. Writers not talking about money. Yeah. I mean, most people in professional stuff, but I always do because it's just information and it doesn't reflect my value as a writer.

It's the, it's the whatever I sold, the people I'm working with, the time that I sold it, right. And what else was out there. Um, but I don't think those numbers represent my value as a person or a writer. So I'm always happy to share them. 

Maggie: Getting your movie made is so special and exciting and amazing. And so if you are making Below Guild minimum, you're not in the Guild in your first film, and you may not be WGA yet.

And like I think we went through my first film Writer's Guild of Canada, which was like a di it was a different thing. It was Canadian. And so, you know, you don't have to pay Writers' Guild rate when you do that particular type of deal. And so some people will be like, oh my God, I can't believe you did that.

And it's like I had, I had a movie on Amazon with like a really nice budget and I'm so proud of it. And it was one of the best moments of my life was watching that premiere, like truly life-changing stuff. And I got to meet Eric and I got to start my career in like a big way as a writer. So yeah, it was worth it to me.

And I think right now. Just people. I, I think that like looking at schedules of minimums, like yes, if you're a WGA, you have to abide by that, but before you get started, I think be more flexible. And then also look at production bonuses, which is something writers don't often know about. 

Eric: Most of Hollywood, certainly not all of it.

Most of it's a volume business. You have to look at it as a volume business, and everybody's taught in school. You know, every project is your magnum opus. And that's, that's gonna Absolutely not, I can't, I can't No 

Lorien: stress enough because that is how writers end up spending 10 years rewriting and rewriting, and rewriting the most important thing they have to say.

And that's like, no, rewrite it enough. Make it work. Make it good. Decide it. Shit. Move on. 

Maggie: I now write a movie every year. Um, so I, starting February, I'm writing my next movie and I'm really excited. It's romcom, super excited. It's gonna be half la, half Scotland, and I wanna do a short, I wanna direct the short.

I know. Oh my God. I can't believe I'm coming one of those, but I'm getting very. My amazing mentor, Laverne McKinnon, has been pushing me to, you know, because, um, I now realize that it would be fun to be able to work with people like happy accidents and be like, Hey, I'm a writer director now, and then I can do the whole thing.

And then we don't have to attach a director, and it saves a step. 

Lorien: Most women I talk to, I say, are you gonna direct this feature? You wrote? Well, I want to, but I don't know. I'm like, oh no, you just decide that you're gonna do it. Well, no one will hire me and oh no, you're just gonna do it. So I, I convince a lot of women.

To just say, no, I'm a writer director and I'm directing this project and talk about it very in the active present, and then you start to believe it, and then other people believe you when 

Maggie: You tell them who you are. As a writer right now, if you wanna move into directing and if you are not a man, although please men, keep directing things.

If you're not a man, please try directing 'cause we need more people on our list. 'cause the lists are actually so sad and short. Um, I think it was something like two out of the top a hundred films in 2024. Uh, no, it was 20. Yeah, it was this past year. It was like two out of a hundred films were directed by women.

Like, it's, it's really, really bad. It's very, very, very bad. So we need more people. Um, but what I'll say is direct a short. So write something, you're a, you wanna be a writer, director, great. Write a short figure out a way to fund it. There's so many funds available, or shoot it cheap. Get into festivals, and now you have a proof of concept.

As you, as a director write a feature version of that short and then sell it and say, I am the director of this. And don't, and find a producer that will advocate for you. And I've seen this work like 10 times. 

Eric: You know, there's also like, like a FI has a directing workshop. Yes. Like in a lot of the networks and streamer, uh, the traditional broadcast networks, they have a lot of, um, incredibly, you know, a lot of them are diversity programs, but they really wanna get minorities and women into these positions where it's not.

And so, um. Go, go do that as well. I have a wonderful friend who came up from a FI and then got an Orion Murphy show and then just took off with an amazing, uh, she's like doing like five to seven episodes in a few movies almost every year. That's amazing. Yeah. 

Lorien: I could ask many, many, many questions selfishly, but also because I know our audience would really appreciate it, and I think you two are so smart and so experienced and have such great things to say.

Um, but I'm gonna move to the end where I'm gonna ask you the questions that we ask everybody. What are the elements of a good scene? 

Maggie: Elements of a good scene is, what are you trying to accomplish? What are the wants of the characters? So in a scene, and I am, I'm kind of a quick writer, I, I think like the comedy I enjoy is very much like a Tina Fey style.

So I like to also, in a comedy, I like to make sure, like, do I have some kind of a funny line at least once or t, ideally twice a page. I'm pretty quick. With my, I also love Die Hard, so it's like, let's get to the, let's get to the point. Always be my, maybe I just like, so elements of a scene is, are there about one to two jokes a page?

This is for comedy. Um, are both of the people in the scene like trying to accomplish something? Um, what are their wants? And what are their kind of perspectives and what are they brushing up against? So where's the conflict in the scene? And that's usually how I think about it. But I really think about what am I trying to accomplish by writing this?

And if the answer is nothing, I probably need to rethink the scene. 

Eric: What I like what you said there, Maggie, is we always talk about, uh, uh, uh, protagonists, uh, objectives and obstacles when we're talking about the whole arc of the film. Every scene you need to do that too as well. I'd also argue you get into it as late as you can and get out of it as early as you can.

Mm-hmm. And it must, must move the plot forward. We can't like do a little pimple scene that leads nowhere to come back. Like everything needs to move forward and, and keep us going somewhere and moving along. 

Maggie: And if it's a solo actor, what am I learning by them? You know, I have a scene in NAS where she's walking through Chinatown the morning af, it's Christmas morning and she's walking through Chinatown.

And she's alone and everything's closed, but there's like a beacon of light in the corner, and it's a Chinese restaurant that's opening like in the morning, because obviously Chi, you know, Chinese restaurants are open on Christmas and they invite her inside. So for me, yes, it's a solo scene and it's a moment, but I'm learning about the character because it's showing her that like this is a part of her.

You know, like there's always gonna be a place for her, even though she's a Jewish girl alone on Christmas, walking alone in Chinatown that will invite her in. And it's this other culture. So for me, like it's also a scene where there's just music. There's no words. 

Lorien: Right. But the, I imagine that the character moment is that she accepts the invitation.

Yes. She accepts it and she walks in. She's, because she goes in and. Right. That is the she's act. She's taking an action. 

Maggie: She is. 'cause she's an avoidant personality. And then she finally decides like, oh, I will allow myself to be loved. 

Lorien: I agree with you, Eric. Get in late and get out early. And I would think about that too as we are writing Act one.

Maggie: Sure get in late. Why act one? 

Lorien: Well, act one can be a very heavy place where there's a lot of backstory and a lot of exposition. And a lot of 

Eric: exposition. Exposition. It's like, 

Lorien: no, I wanna see the character right where I'm gonna meet them in the story. Right. Oh, are you? Great point you. Are you a boxer? You're boxing.

I don't wanna see you. You know, like, I mean, this is more specific around a pilot, right? You start out where you are, you don't wait till the end to reveal it. But think about it too, in act one, how much, why are you telling me all this stuff that you can't reveal later in act two, when they're pushed up against something?

Maggie: I'm gonna add something, which is if you have a rom-com, please have your characters meet and there's always, you're always gonna break this rule. People are gonna break this rule. It happens all the time. I've seen this happen all the time. If it's a rom-com, by like page 15, I really, really wanna see your people meet, please.

Please if they're not, if they're not meeting by page 20, um, there's a book on Amazon called Writing the Romantic Comedy, which I, we 

Lorien: had him on the show, Billy Menick. No way. Yeah, we, I love that book. I would actually suggest having the meet cute earlier. 

Maggie: I, I think like the earlier that I can see like who the, who the people are gonna be, it's why everyone's like, I'm going home for Christmas.

I'm, I'm home. You know, like, like, wow. They're home right now. And then the, you know, the lumberjack is like, Hey you, I have some lumber for you. 

Lorien: And you're like, oh, uh, okay. Here's the speed round. Ready? Oh God. What brings you the most joy when it comes to your writing, Maggie. And for you, Eric, you're producing?

Maggie: Um, I really think it's when I get to share my writing with other people that I care about. Um, and then I get to see, and they get to ask me questions and we get to talk about it. Um, and also when I'm by myself and like the candles are lit and I have a cup of tea and I'm working on a scene, and then I just like get it, like that spark, right?

The spark of like, oh, that's really, and, and it brings a smile to my face. So I think it's those magic moments and then the magic moments of collaborating with people I care about. 

Eric: I, I think this is what I've always appreciated about, like, people that work in an orchestra or build, build movies together, you know, slightly different from sports where you're being more competitive.

It's like we have all these elements. And they're all, you know, some of the parts is so much more impactful than any individual element. And I love seeing it all come together. And then the magic kind of, kind of showing itself or, or, um, illustrating itself. So, um, 'cause it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work to get everything together.

You know, generally by the time we're in production, we've probably been working on this for a year or two already. Um, and. And to see the fruits of that labor on screen and to see the beauty and see it all together, um, it, it is, it's just magical. 

Lorien: So magic. Yeah. Which is easy to do. Awesome. Okay. Uh, what pisses you off about writing and producing for your work?

Maggie: The timelines of things have really gotten longer. Um, and I like expediency and I love, um, seeing things get made. So I think for me, especially, 'cause I was working in development, kind of the quote unquote golden age of television, and I was just seeing things like, it was like the Netflix, your green lit, you know, like the joke on South Park.

It was just so fast. Um, and I think that the timeline of things has slowed and the best thing is to talk to other writers. Lauren, I'm not sure if this has been your experience, but I have found timelines to have gotten a lot longer and it can be a little scary and I think, um, a little tricky as a writer 'cause you realize the timelines have expanded.

Um, that, and I think social media pisses me off because I feel like it, it, you don't know how long the journey took, you're just seeing kind of the final result. So you think that things are constantly selling all the time when really there's projects that people have worked on for five years. So I think that, yeah, I mean, I 

Lorien: come from feature animation, so like being in one job on one film for five years, like.

So anything I do in Hollywood is like, woo-hoo, this is like speedy. This is amazing, right? Like, oh yeah. You know? So it's like, it took less than five years. I'm excited. 

Maggie: That's a beautiful perspective. I, I think I was spoiled by how fast things used to go, and I think now it's about learning. Okay. As long as I am keeping to my own timetable, meeting new people.

Um, and then also just like constant communication. But yeah, I think, I think what pisses me off is when. Also, I think it's, it's buyers, um, saying one thing and then doing something else, but also that's their right. Yeah. If they say they want something and then they like don't actually want it. Are you talking about the mandates?

Mandates. Yeah, mandates piss me off a little bit. Does that mean I just think they're wrong? Yeah. And I think I just never see them to be accurate. I look at network mandates all the time. I can. I look 

Lorien: at them and I see what the themes and the stories are, and then I look at their last season to see what they're reacting to.

And then I can kind of say like, okay, what's actually, what are they actually saying? Like they want, that's a really wonderful way to look at mandates kind of overall. Break it down like you're doing a script breakdown. Well, that's what I tell myself as a way to understand it, but who knows? Uh, Eric, what pisses you off about your work.

Eric: Pisses me off. 

Lorien: Yeah.

Eric: I dunno. I mean, it, it is tedious to develop, let's be honest. I mean, it, it would be nice if it was a little faster, but that just is what it is. It's no problem there. Um, it's not great when, like, you have some big notes that aren't executed and there was no discussion about why not.

Um, or like some other, like even if they didn't like the note, could you have a discussion and find some other solution that both sides agree with? Um. And, you know, we see everything as a collaboration. We, we always have a very open, uh, communication channels, whether it be phone, email, or whatever. And so to kind of not, not utilize that or, or, or just kind of make a unilateral, I just don't like it when we're trying to do it.

Everything's a partnership and when partners making unilateral decisions, because that's just not the spirit of what we're trying to do. 

Lorien: Yep. So magic collaboration and communication so far is what I've gotten from you guys, the whole podcast. Great. Um, which is all holiday movies too, right? If you could have coffee with your younger self, what piece of advice would you give them?

Maggie: Oh, God. Uh, don't be afraid to write a movie. You know, I, I didn't do it till I was like, you know, like 33 and I. I don't know. Everything happens. I'm so, I'm so grateful. I spent time on the other side and did development 'cause I'm such a better writer and I also judged through the blacklist and I read a thousand scripts and I'm so grateful that what brought me here.

But I think I would've said, you know what, like just. Do it. Just start. And, uh, as my mentor, Laverne McKinnon says, hug the bear. I was so afraid of the bear of writing a movie. I was like, oh, oh my God. It's such a long thing to do and there's so many good movies, but like you are capable of writing a movie too.

And you know what? It might be good and you won't know unless you try so, and it'll probably be bad and that's great too, but that's great. Get it out. The first thing you write is not gonna be great. No one will ever see it. So definitely write something bad because get it out of the way and then you can start working on like better stuff.

But I, I, I think hug the bear, um, is what I would say. And just like, write a movie. 

Eric: Um, oh, oh, that's, that's a hard one actually. Um. Um, I would, I would make, I would meet more people. I didn't network enough when I got out here. 

Lorien: Yeah, that's hard. Um, okay. And the last one, what is your proudest career moment so far?

Maggie: Uh, seeing my name in the credits as a writer, uh, on my first film. Was really, really cool. And I remember had this feeling, I threw myself my own premier party, um, and in a backyard in Venice and I had it fake snow, so I know all about fake snow and I like did this whole thing and I spent thousands of dollars hosting my own premier party, which is, I'm very happy I did.

Um, so I had this party and I remember seeing my name in the credits and being like, I love that Eric. 

Eric: Uh, I'll say like, when we, when we started our own company, um, which was the first time we had both done that. Um, we definitely took a leap of faith, right? And, and you kind of don't know for a second like where your order's gonna come in.

Is this gonna work out? Are you gonna like, be able to turn this into a career? Are you gonna be actually able to not work for other people for a while? And, uh, you know, after we got our first sale. We got our first movie up, we're now on our 11th in like, just under three years. Um, and we have two series coming and like the momentum, seeing the momentum kind of ball get going, and then realizing that that leap of faith, you've, you've actually landed on something and you have a foundation in something underneath yourself, and it's, you're not just, um, flailing.

Um, that's, that's a lovely feeling. 

Lorien: Thank you to both of you, Maggie and Eric for being on the show. It's been a joy.

Maggie: Thank you so much for having us. 

Eric: Thank you so much for having us. It was great to be here. 

Lorien: Thank you so much to Maggie and Eric for joining us today and sharing all of their amazing wisdom.

For more support, find us on Instagram and on Facebook and head over to the screenwriting life.com. To learn more about our workshop program, TSL workshops. Right now we're running a special holiday promo. Just head to tslworkshops.circle.so and use the code holiday25, that's holiday two five to get 50% off your first month.

The link and promo code are in the episode description. If you have any questions, you can always reach out to thescreenwritinglife@gmail.com and remember, you are not alone and keep writing.