Indie Film Craft 4 | How to Make Your Script Undeniable to an Indie Producer (ft. Julie Waters)

Every writer dreams of getting their script into the right hands — but what actually makes a producer want to fight for your project?

This week, Jeff sits down with powerhouse indie producer Julie Waters (Watermark Media), fresh off producing OH, HI! — one of the few films sold at Sundance this year and now playing in theaters. Julie not only shares what makes a script feel undeniable, but also demystifies the real roles of networks, studios, production companies, and producers. She breaks down who’s really buying, who’s paying, and who you’re actually pitching when you walk into the room.

If you’re trying to figure out how to move from “great script” to “must-make project” — and want a clear map of how the business truly works — this episode is for you.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Jeff: Welcome back to Indie Film Craft. I'm your host, Jeffrey Crane Graham, and if you're new here, or maybe finding today's show through the TSL Feed, this is where we dig into the art and realities of making indie films from outside the studio system. Today's the first time I've had a producer on the show, but Julie Waters isn't just any producer.

She's had a very big year as the co-founder and CEO of Watermark Media. Julie produced two films that premiered at the 2025 Sundance Film Festival, Joel Alfonso Vargas's debut, Mad Bills to Pay and Sophie Brooks' Oh, Hi!, which went on to sell to Sony Pictures Classics. This is a big deal because anyone who follows the trades knows that 2025 was a very dry sales year at Sundance.

Oh, Hi!, which is still playing in some select theaters and is available on VOD, is a fresh, hilarious twist on the modern romcom. It stars Molly Gordon, who co-wrote the film with Brooks and follows a protagonist who thinks she's finally landed in a stable relationship. Only to find out that her boyfriend isn't exactly exclusive. Her solution? Tie him up to win him back.

It's funny and warm and surprisingly nuanced for a film that involves kidnapping and witchcraft. Julie's path to a moment like this is just as impressive as the movie. Before founding Watermark, she was the head of Scrap Paper Pictures, the company launched by Rachel Brosnahan, where she oversaw a slate of indie film and TV projects under a first look deal with Amazon.

Before that, she worked as vice president for Temple Hill Entertainment producing the Claim FX series Dave, A show I love and developing Hulu's Love, Victor and The Other Black Girl. She's also the founder of Queer, a networking and advocacy group dedicated to uniting queer women in the entertainment industry.

Julie's experience gives her a rare 360 degree perspective on filmmaking. It blends big studio experience, curated indie taste, and a clear sense of the kinds of stories she wants to champion. I'm really excited to talk to her about how indie filmmakers should be navigating today's very shaky climate and how they can stand out and connect to indie producers like herself who are looking for undeniable work. Julie, thanks for joining us today.

Julie: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Jeff: Super. It's exciting. Yeah we can't wait. It's a funny, actually, peek behind the curtain. My co-producer, our other producer on the show, Jonathan connected us and you all met very early in your career.

So Jonathan, I'm actually gonna throw to you first –

Jonathan: Julie, bear with me as I sort of almost recite your LinkedIn out loud, but I think it's worth digging into the career path just a little bit. So when you and I met, it was 2014, 2015, over 10 years ago. And you were an assistant at UTA, I believe. For an agent. And then you went to Fox 21 TV.

Julie: Yeah. And –

Jonathan: Then to Temple Hill where yes, you were a VP but were there for many years and were first a coordinator and worked your way up to VP. Then head of Rachel Brosnahan’s company and then started your own company. And I think it's worth just mentioning that full path. We have a lot of people who listen who are just trying to break in. 

I know that I personally am often giving the advice of starting out at a management company or an agency is a great place to start and often gives you a good sort of industry 101. So I was just sort of curious to hear from you – Do you agree? Where do you sort of recommend people start, do you find that things you learned, you know, as an assistant at UTA do those things? Do you still carry them with you?

Julie: Yeah. I would definitely agree with that. I think whether you wanna be a producer, an executive, a writer, a filmmaker, it never is a bad idea to get that experience.

It is very much like a rapid fire grad school, working in the industry. I know a lot of people who are interested in the filmmaking route will come up more on set as PAs, which is a great experience in learning, more, producing on the ground, and really being embedded in that experience. Both of those things are incredibly valuable experiences, and I learned a lot at UTA.

It's also where I made a lot of my close friends that I still have to this day, especially moving to LA without really knowing anyone, and you're getting thrown into this pool of a lot of young people who are just trying to figure it out. And I think that's, I think it's a really great place to, to start.

Jonathan: That's great. I think it's also a good, a nice reminder of patience, right? It takes, the careers in this industry take, they take time. Time to build. I mean, if you were an assistant in 2014, it's now 2025. I still think that's impressive in 10 or 11 years that you have your own company, but it takes time to sort of figure out what you want to do. And the only way to know what you do and don't want to do is, I think, by doing it. So –

Julie: I agree. I learned a lot. Every job I had led me to the next job, and I, my career has taken turns. I thought when I was leaving UTA that I really wanted to work at a studio or distributor buyer.

I can't even really say streamer. Because that was such, it was such early days for streamers, and I went to a studio and I learned so much, but also learned that wasn't where I wanted to be, which is why I then went to a production company because I love development and I love producing. And when you're at a production company, you're really working much more closely with the creatives.

We would, I would give notes, easily multiple rounds of notes on a script before it even made its way to the studio. So you're really working just in there. It's also sales, so that's hard. You're, you know, network, you're getting stuff made, and at a production company you're trying to sell things.

You're trying to set them up and just hoping things get made, 90% of what you develop will never see the light of day, which is very unfortunate.

Jeff: Do you mind, Julie, like I, I wanna, I guess zoom out a little bit 'cause so many of our listeners, honestly, sometimes even elements of me need to like, don't always understand the different lanes of how development works.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but when I think about all the roles you've occupied. There's three major categories, one of which is working for a studio, there's working for like a curated production company for talent that, like a boutique production company, I guess would be maybe how I hear it described. That would be Scrap Paper, which is Rachel Brosnahan’s Company and of course launching your own, where you're developing your own work in sort of an indie market.

I guess like, this is a big question, but would it be difficult for you to articulate. How those, like, how those three work and how they're different. Just 'cause so many of our listeners might not even understand that landscape.

Julie: Yeah. Temple. Temple Hill and scrap paper, both were production companies that worked within the studio system.

Jeff: Okay.

Julie: On the TV side, Scrap Paper had a deal at Amazon. When I was at Temple Hill, we had. Deals at a variety of different studios over the course of the time that I was there and on the film side, Temple Hill also had studio deals and did not do any independent film at least at the time that I was there.

And at Scrap Paper, we did not have a film deal and Rachel's taste was incredibly, she has incredibly smart and interesting taste, and she is really who opened my eyes towards independent film. And so she was interested in doing more independent film, A24-esque projects, which was when I first started really learning about that side of the industry and how it worked.

Jeff: And like, this is a naive question, but is it safe to say that when we use the word studio, we're talking about like the eight entities of the AMPTP? Basically like, like Disney, Warners, Fox, Netflix, Apple, what am I missing? Yeah. Basically that's the way we talked about it.

Those are also –

Julie: Distributors? Yes. Those are also distributors, so they're also the independent studios. You know, Lionsgate, Sony, we had a deal for now.

Jeff: Probably, would that be considered –

Julie: A24 is an independent studio. Yeah. An independent studio is generally a studio that does not also belong to a larger distribution entity.

So if you think about Lionsgate, they don't have their own streaming or distributor platform in TV. The, that's the TV side versus the film side. Lionsgate distributes film. So they are a distributor on the film side and an independent studio on the television side.

Jeff: Okay, that makes sense. Thank you for helping clarify that.

I just think it's also interesting 'cause to me like it's getting blurrier too as more platforms are emerging and consolidating and I just think it's helpful because sometimes our emerging filmmakers will like, go into a meeting and they're like. Am I looking to sell this to the production company, to take to the studio?

Am I at the studio who's paying for this? And that can all get kind of confusing and nebulous from the creative side.

Julie: Yeah. Most production companies don't do development finance, so at most, I, not all production companies, but at many of them, especially in LA that have deals at studios, they won't pay for development financing.

So you're working with them to develop a project to then bring to the studio or directly to various distributors. When I started at Temple Hill, we were working with 20th and Fox 21. Fox 21 was the studio I had worked at. They were bifurcated 20th, at that time only did broadcast television and Fox 21 did cable.

And so at that time we would work with 20th to sell things to A-B-C-N-B-C-C-B-S. Which is such a different model than what is happening today. And after I was there, those studios eventually merged. So now the, there's not a separation between broadcast and cable streaming.

Jeff: I'm just gonna ask one more question about this, if that's okay.

Yeah. Because I think it's valuable of course. So like. It's helpful for you to articulate if a, if an exciting emerging writer were to have taken a meeting at Scrap Paper and you all wanted to work with them, it would presumably be, like you said, like a non-monetary development deal. The idea that now they're like in the boat with you and you're working with them to develop it, curate it towards Rachel's voice, to presumably then bring to a studio and sell.

Can you like, I think. Maybe a traditional old school writer or someone outta the business might like think it's a red flag that this big company isn't paying me for rewrites or developing, but that's how it works. Can you explain like what are the like green flags if you're meeting with a cool boutique production company, like this is normal.

This is the culture of how development and sales works and like the red flags of like, is this a real company? Am I in bed with someone? I should be kind of what to look out for.

Julie: That's an interesting question. I would say that it, I would look into the company and just who they are and what they've done since the writer strike and even before, the idea of how much development are you doing before you're getting paid has really shifted.

There was a time when writers were doing a lot of work for free, and that was obviously not what we want to have writers doing, everybody should be getting paid. But independent producers also don't get paid. They don't get paid until something is made, right, which could be years and years. So it's interesting.

I, I think that if you're meeting with a company in one form or another, they either have some kind of credits or legitimate relationships, you know, so you know that they're I guess a quote unquote real companies. There aren't really, I wouldn't really worry about sort of. Dealing with a fake company, that's not something I would necessarily, If they have a track record, be wary of-

Jeff: Right. They're presumably a real company if things have gotten made right. Like that is a great green flag right away if things have gotten made. Yeah.

Julie: Or I mean, I started a company and so objectively nothing had been made yet when I started the company, but I had a track record of my prior career and what I had made.

Jeff: Totally. That makes sense.

Julie: I think it's all about just relationships and understanding. Who you're talking to and who you're meeting.

Jeff: Right. And I do wanna be clear like that was not, I can see how that might be like viewed as a gotcha question. Like should we be doing rewrites? What are the steps?

But I think I more just wanna articulate to writers that like when you're early in development with a company, you're either gonna be doing rewrites on your own because. That is the nature of writing. It can be hard to articulate exactly what a step is and what a rewrite is and what a polish is. And like, the industry has changed a lot and that is an element of what we do.

You know, Sheila Hanahan Taylor, who's a big producer, she did the Final Destination movies. She just came on the show and was talking about like exactly what you were saying was as much as you're grinding and scraping and development on the page, producers are probably grinding more behind the scenes and they get paid last, like they are just as invested in curating this undeniable script with you to take out because they'll see money even after you. So it's easy to, sometimes I think as the writer put the producer in this special box. But like they're in the trenches with you and they're also trying to navigate this landscape, so they're like an ally, which I think sometimes writers don't always realize.

Julie: Yeah.

And producers are. Just in the last year or two, there's, there are a bunch of producers who've gotten together to build a producer's union to work so that producers can also get development fees. If you're an independent producer and you sell something to a studio. The writer, filmmaker will get paid for their work and the producers won't.

Right? So that is also a larger issue within the independent producing space. You are getting paid if you have a studio deal, but if you don't, then you only get paid off of your producing fees. Once something has been greenlit.

Jeff: Yeah, I'm glad you're articulating that because I think it can be so easy for the industry to like villainize the Capital P producer or just kind of put all producers in the same bucket.

But there's a huge class of really gifted producers with amazing careers whose money's kind of dried up. And it's this middle ground between the creatives who need an ally and the studios who are getting paid on salary. And there should be a union protecting that class of producers. Yeah. 'cause.

And another way too, there's sort of the last arbiters of like, taste and like good things. Yeah. And if we don't have that army of producers who either A, aren't unionized or B aren't getting paid, nothing good will get made anymore.

Julie: It's really hard. And we've seen right now is a really difficult time because between all of the mergers and the strike after the strike, so many studios dropped a lot of deals. I've never had more friends without jobs in the entire time I've worked in entertainment. It is a brutal, it's a brutal time for everyone, right? For writers, for filmmakers, for actors, because not as much is getting made and for producers, you know.

If your company that you work at had a deal and doesn't anymore, there's no one paying for you to have overhead, and so you're just out there on your own, either, you know, independent producing and hustling and trying to find a job.

Jeff: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you articulating that. I just think it's helpful.

We talk so much about creatives. Not to say producers aren't creatives, but the traditional writer director. And it's, I think, really illuminating for our audience to hear what the life of an independent producer is like. I think, speaking of, I wanna talk about watermark and what an exciting year you've had.

If anyone hasn't seen it. Oh, Hi! It's still in a couple theaters. It's playing here in New York. Not only is it great, but it's the kind of movie that I think would be really fun to see in a movie theater because. It sort of, wrong, foots you in a lot of really fun ways and has these really fun twists.

We wanna talk a bit about the movie. So here's what I'll say. Yeah, if you haven't seen it yet, we'll include some spoilers here, but you can fast forward. I'll create a little typewriter sound effect here so our audience knows when they can come in and come out. But Jonathan and I both loved it.

Jonathan, you had a couple specific questions about the movie.

Jonathan: Yeah. And by the way, it is, I just saw it in LA so if you're in LA go see it. It is, it's still in theaters. I'm curious, I sort of had two, two questions. I would say under the umbrella of like, structure and tone. So again spoilers to follow.

The movie starts with tense music, it’s kind of ominous. We have Iris' friend who's arriving. Unless I heard it wrong, I think she, doesn't she start – I think she actually says, “Oh, hi.” Like, I think that's the first line. 

Julie: That's the first line. That is the first line in the movie. It's, “Oh, hi.” Yeah. 

Jonathan: Thank you so much for that delivery. 

Julie: It's so funny because when I say, “Oh, hi!,” the inflection is weird to just say it like that. So people always think it's “Ojai,” like Ojai in California. But it is not.

Jonathan: Oh, thank you for clarifying. So that's the first line of the movie. Then we have the opening titles, and it's a quick cut to Iris and Isaac. So this is Molly Gordon and Logan Lerman’s characters driving in daylight, bright up, upbeat music playing very, like a distinct tonal shift. So I'm just curious if you and Sophie, who wrote and directed the movie – did you have conversations about this beginning? I'm always so curious about the different iterations of an opening scene, right? That choice to start with that and then we go back in time and eventually get to the point where we are at that beginning scene in the movie.

Julie: Yeah. I think a lot of content where either your genre blending or things are going to take a turn. People often will have this opening that really indicates what's going to happen. This is particularly a thing in television because they'll say, I mean, when we were developing, I would have streamers tell us, you know, you have two minutes to get people to keep watching the show.

And so they all wanted to have this opening. If you think about pretty much any crime mystery show you've watched since. Big Little Lies or The Handmaid's Tale, they all open with something indicating the murder, indicating that something is going to wanna happen and you should watch to get there. In the case of Oh, Hi!, there had always been an opening that would indicate that twist.

Once we were in post, there were actually a few different versions of how much do you wanna show? That was always a question is how long is that opening? How much do you show? And there had definitely been different versions in the edit that showed more. And it was a question of, okay, are we revealing too much and really pulling back.

And we ultimately went with the version that pulled back. So, you know, something is gonna happen, but you don't know what.

Jeff: That's sort of that tightrope that I think producers have to walk between like the right decision storytelling wise and like knowing that audiences have changed and like we do have to make specific decisions commercially to keep them hooked and grab them.

And like I'm curious, as someone who's now running your own company, when you're reading material, how much of your brain is like. Story, always the most artistic, elegant version of what this is. And like, we can't get this made unless X and like I know that I need to do this to grab an audience and that kind of other brain that you need to have as a producer.

Julie: I think that it's all important for me when I'm reading something, the most important things in terms of am I interested in this or is this a great script, a really interesting project. Story and character are the two probably most crucial elements when you're, for, at least for me and most people I know when you're first reading a script and is it an interesting story? Is it landing the tone? Is the tone clear? Is it, you know, sometimes you read something that has an incredible plot, but maybe the characters don't feel very real, or the dialogue isn't as strong. And so all of those different elements really go into how we feel and sometimes you can tell something, the tone is amazing, the characters are there.

Maybe the plot needs work. And that's sort of, do you believe in this enough? And do you love it enough to wanna put in that work? To really get there.

Jeff: That's great. What I'm hearing you say is that like there are a couple fundamental necessities when you're first reading that would 'cause, you know, as a producer, like this is gonna be a long haul.

Not always. Yeah. But often it's like. We're gonna need to do all of those tight rope walking commercial things down the road with each hurdle. The further we push this up the hill, that stuff's all gonna get thrown at us anyway. Yeah. If there is like an essence here that feels undeniable from the start, we can figure all that out eventually.

But that's going to, that's gonna get you the meeting.

Julie: Yeah. Well, I think the, to your question, we're also talking about the difference between a studio project and an independent project, because. Whether it's studio or independent, people love a genre, and genres tend to be incredibly formulaic. Going all the way back to, you know, I took a class in college about the history of the rom-com, going all the way back to the 1930s, and there's a formula.

The formula will change over time based off of how the genre shifts, but at the end of the day, there is a. There's something comforting for audiences to know that this film will pan out in a certain way, even if it ends up being different than what they expected. And often delivering on that genre is very important.

No matter if you're making a horror or a thriller or a romcom, whether it's with a studio or. Independent. I think you have a lot, you have a lot more leeway to play in the independent space when you're working with a studio. You know, I know when I'm working with a studio that we will need to have hit certain levers, hit certain buttons for them to not be so afraid, and Oh, Hi! is a good example of a movie that.

Studios are afraid of. Because it's genre blending, the tone shifts, and when I first read Oh, Hi! I, I love genre blending and weird stuff. The biggest consistent element for me in Oh, Hi! was the comedy. No matter what happened with the tone, there was always such a strong comedic sensibility at the heart of the movie and with the characters.

The characters were always, they evolve, but they had such distinct voices, and Sophie's writing was so brilliant on the page, and so it was really about talking to her. Hearing her vision the tonal shifts were on the page, but it's also really important that you're talking to someone and understanding how they wanna execute those elements.

And how they want those elements to feel because they can, it's hard. It's hard to nail, it's hard to land that kind of film. And Sophie is just such a brilliant writer and such a brilliant filmmaker. And I think personally that she nailed it above and beyond and totally. Yeah.

Jeff: That's so valuable.

Like the other thing I'm hearing you say is like, it's confidence and it's like self-assurance on the page. Yes. I do think it's been like an incredibly fertile time for really good genre bending indies. Like I, I sort of love this new space of like independent films that are trafficking in genres. We understand, but like making specific choices to either like kind of put up a middle finger to those genres or like, that's what your movie is doing is it's like.

Trafficking in tropes that we have a language for as an audience, but like really subverting them and pulling the rug out from under us. And I think to your point, like there is an audience of, I think, sophisticated film goers who are really excited about that because they've seen a million romcoms and so they're actually hungry for Sophie's version of it.

Julie: Yeah, I don't even, I think talking about a sophisticated film goer that's, there's definitely. That section of the audience. But ultimately, I think that all people right now are craving original film. They want things that feel original, that feel fresh. Weapons is a great example. Zach Cregger movie. He did Barbarian. In theaters right now.

It's such an amazing film. I mean, the Naked Gun is seeing a big comedy in theaters. Doing incredibly well, is amazing. We need, people want, we need comedy in the theaters, we need romcoms in the theaters, and we need to prove that things that aren't just horror can do well in the theatrical space. And it's a really interesting time, but ultimately.

Working with sort of rising filmmakers with fresh perspectives. Those people are, who are really going to give you that new element. Right. Zach Cregger did Barbarian a couple years ago. Right. And even going back to Get Out and Jordan Peele, it's someone just with a new perspective that is.

Delivering an incredible piece of cinema. And that's exciting to people. They're bored. People are bored.

Jeff: Totally. Yeah. I was lucky enough to see Weapons last weekend and it like totally bowled me over. I just thought it was such a, not only is it such a fun experience, but it's such like a quietly smart movie and what it's doing.

Just really exciting. Okay. So it's been, I think, really helpful to talk about. As you're reading, of course the first things you're looking for are like character, confidence, voice. It's, I think it's also valuable for our audience to know like, on second reads and additional reads, like, what else is your producer brain doing?

You know, there's so much that our writer brain is doing when we're on the page. I just think like stepping into the shoes of an independent producer can be a really useful exercise for emerging writers, just because I don't think writers should ever write from that perspective, but maybe their rewriting or they've gotten like the beautiful, juicy, emotional, vomit draft out.

It's interesting to hear how other departments look at our work. Cause it can shape, I think, how we should approach it too.

Julie: Yeah. I always, I like to read something once and I'll have my initial thoughts, but I don't really wanna dive in to more specific notes or thoughts until my second read. Sometimes I'll even do a third read.

With every writer, the process of giving notes is very different. I work with some writers who will start in an incredibly broad way where these are sort of the macro thoughts and that helps them get into their next draft, really sort of try to break down what it is that we're talking about, and then we get more specific.

But I know other writers who really want the specifics right away. They want all the page notes, they wanna go through every detail that you're thinking. So it's also about understanding who you're working with and making sure that you guys have a shared language and understand how to help craft the narrative further.

Because we all are, we all have the same ultimate goal. We want this project to be amazing. We want the plot to make sense and be intriguing. We want the characters to feel real and we're working together. If you're working with a producer or an executive who does not feel like they're helping make your project better or make it better in a way that is authentic to what you want it to be, then that is probably not the right partnership.

And those are things that you learn along the way working with different people.

Jeff: That's really good advice. Yeah. I think it can be hard because like there's a, it can happen to a writer where someone is finally seeing you and working with you and like that is such a seductive situation because so much of what we do writing is just like banging our head against a keyboard alone in a quiet room.

But yeah. Yeah. There does come a point where like you have to trust your soul and like if the person you're working with doesn't see it the same way you do. This is more of a question for writers, but I'd be curious to hear you weigh in on it. How far should your work be bending to the will of the producers you're working with?

Because at a certain point, they're helping it. They're helping push it up the hill. Like if they can help it get made, that's good. But like at what point do you know like this is too far from who I am, that it's probably not worth even having it get made?

Julie: I think if it feels like you're bending to someone's will, that is probably helping know that language.

Jeff: Yeah.

Julie: That it's not I've worked with, I think it's often the. More of a studio distributor issue, not issue, but generally producers need to be incredibly aligned with the filmmakers and writers that they're working with. And it is our job to speak for those people and. Defend their points of view and make sure that we are fighting for them and their vision.

And so I've worked with people where ultimately the buyer or studio, whoever wants to turn something into something that is not, and that either a writer will decide that they wanna just go with it or they won't, and the project might not come together. It might not be the right creative collaboration, and that does happen.

Jeff: Yeah, that's totally, that, that's a fair answer. And I think like to create a sense of generosity for our audience. It's not always easy or clear. Like sometimes it actually might be the right answer to shift your creative instincts a bit to get something made and like if you have to make some creative compromises.

I think we're, sometimes writers beat themselves up so much, but like. I think just to create a spirit of generosity on the show, like sometimes that is the right choice. If it means you get that first credit, you know? So I think like I just get frustrated on podcasts when people try to make it sound so simple of like, always defend, like it has to be exactly what you intended.

And sometimes it really isn't that simple, especially in an industry that's changing so fast.

Julie: Yeah. I mean, we don't do this in independent film really, but in the studio system, you really don't know what's going to happen with your original material. Because they own it in independent film. That is not what we're trying to do.

We are out here specifically trying to help filmmakers and writers and directors achieve their vision. I am your advocate and if. I am no longer your advocate, then we shouldn't be working together. You should not be working with a producer who is not fighting for your specific vision. And that is incredibly important in the world of the indie film because we are supporting rising filmmakers. Everybody I worked with last year was a first or second time filmmaker, and we. We'll have notes. You know, I'll have certain thoughts, but if I give those thoughts to the filmmaker and they don't agree with them, then they don't agree with them, and that is their prerogative because it is their film ultimately, and I am just here to support it and try to make it achieve all of the greatness that it can possibly achieve.

Jeff: That is really well said. You know, for our emerging filmmakers who are listening and, you know, they feel like they have that script in their hand, do you have any advice for them? Like, how do you, an emerging writer living in Iowa with an amazing piece of material, what next?

Julie: That's a great question.

There's no one easy answer. It's hard to get your script read, if you aren't someone with access within the industry, there are, I would probably say a lot of screenwriting, competitions that help to submit your script to or different labs. So there's a ton of different information online about different places, you know, the blacklist, a variety of different.

Sources for which you can send your writing. Most producers can't accept unsolicited submissions. They have to come from a representative, right? Because then I read something, but ultimately have a different project. It might be completely separate, and I might not even have read the thing that came to me from an unsolicited submission, but you are liable for the fact that if a.

Writer feels like you've stolen their content, they could sue you, which is why it's really important that producers and executives are also protecting themselves.

Jeff: Right. Just to emphasize that, like if you're getting an unsolicited screenplay, you delete it and send it to your trash because that protects you from any kind of accusation that it could be tied to something you're developing or working on.

Julie: Yeah.

Jeff: Yeah. Unfortunately the move isn't to just hold, submit your material to producers. Here's a question. If you were to get like a, it could work though. 

Julie: Yeah. I will say I won't, I wouldn't say never do that. Sure. I would probably say don't do that and just submit to different competitions and whatever, but it, there are scenarios where people find scripts that just were sent to them cold, and it's it's just, they just really spark to it and read it. Yeah.

Jeff: I, here's something I think, and you can tell me if you agree or disagree. Creating your own track record before you sort of enter the pool of producers is a really helpful way to give you like a tiny little s step on the ladder to maybe get that meeting.

It's sort of like what you were saying when writers are vetting producers, what's their track record? What have they made? I'm sure producers feel a little bit the same way when they're reading writers. Have they won any screenwriting competitions? Have they made any shorts themselves, maybe even a micro budget feature?

Have they played festivals with something? It's a two-way street. And like you are also vetting the material from the perspective of who it's coming from in the same way that writers are vetting the producers at their meeting with.

Julie: If you are a filmmaker, the best thing you can do is make a short film just work on shorts.

Make shorts if you want to be a filmmaker and either, you know, there's always a FI or USC going to grad school, but that's also expensive and really hard to do. Ultimately, the thing that you can control is just putting in the work to make something and. If you are sending your work out and you wanna be a filmmaker, but you don't have any examples to show, it's really hard for producers and executives to decipher what your talent is, what your vision is.

What kind of filmmaker are you? I can read it. Often it's on the page if sometimes there isn't a short. Or a, you know, a proof of concept. There are a lot of scripts. There are a lot of scripts that come from filmmakers where you can just, it's on the page and I can even, I can tell I'll get a script and it might, I might not even have been told that the writer wants to direct it.

And I will immediately ask the reps, is this person also a filmmaker? Do they want to direct this because I can feel it. The vision is. So clearly on the page, but ultimately if you're coming up and you don't have credits or you know, don't have any form of track record or reps having a short film is the best thing probably that you could do.

Jonathan: I'm just curious, just to bring it back to Oh, Hi! for a second. Could you tell us how you got involved with that project? Were you familiar with Sophie? Did you get sent a script? Like how did that connection happen and what was it about that project? You've already mentioned that the script was really strong.

Julie: It's funny because when I was making the transition from scrap paper to independent producing and financing, I was talking to a friend actually at a TV studio who went to high school with Sophie. I was familiar with Sophie from her first feature, and she'd actually had a piece of development at Temple Hill while I was there.

It wasn't my project, but it was a development, and I was able to also reach out to my former colleague and ask him how that experience was, but. I, my friend at the studio gave me the script and he just, he was like, he knows my taste really well. And he was just like, I think you might like this. And he was correct.

And the agents who were the indie sales agents are people that I know well, and so I then reached out to them. And the connection just happened. I had partnered at the beginning of 2024 with a friend to start our company, and in addition to independent producing, we were also able to bring in some financing, which is incredibly important.

I knew transitioning from the system I had come from. I was an executive mostly in the TV space and producer. And so no one was just gonna hand me an independent film. And when you are an independent producer, you have to find great material, but you also have to find the money if you're gonna get something made.

And so being able to work with a friend of mine and us come together and being able to bring in some financing was. Really beneficial to us kind of getting in the mix very quickly. And we're very fortunate that we were able to do that. And so we, I met Sophie and the team and just, I just loved everyone involved and I loved her vision.

And so we came on the project. We were what they refer to as first in, so we were the first people who were putting in financing to help get the film made. And often once you have that first in, it really helps lock down the rest of the money. And so once we were in some other financiers were, you know, they were debating.

I actually ended up talking to them and I think it helped that I was not just. A creative producer on the project, but also putting in financing to really help them understand why and why we would put our money on the line as well for this project. And everything kind of just came together from there.

And it was a, for me, it was a very quick process for Sophie and the team. They had been trying to get this movie made for four years, and so that's. It's hard. It takes a really long time, but then sometimes it just takes one person to say, let's go do this. Let's go make this movie. And that ultimately was how I got involved in the project.

But everybody was so incredibly welcoming to me and we, you know, if we didn't, if my thoughts on the project were not aligned with theirs. As we've sort of been talking about, then it probably would not have been the right project. But everything that Sophie was talking about was just exactly, it just felt so authentic and it just felt so perfect for the execution of her film.

And that is, those are all the important factors to coming together and working together. Yeah.

Jeff: That's great. Yeah, it's like you just have to make sure you're making the same movie. Sometimes that's what happens is you know, the director's making a different movie than the producer who's making a different movie from the writer.

And then they might all be good movies, but if they're not the same movie, you end up with a bad movie.

Julie: Yes.

Jeff: And that happens.

Julie: That happens. It does happen. Yeah. And it. It happens. It happens a lot with studios.

Jeff: Oh yeah.

Julie: Especially you can feel it. 

Jeff: And that's, it's actually why I've been so, there's just been so many great indies this year and all of them feel so distilled.

Like I also just saw the Dave Franco Brie Larson movie together. Allison…

Julie: Brie, yeah, thank you.

Jeff: Yeah, I do that all the time. The Alison Brie and Dave Franco movie together. And the reason I loved it is 'cause it was more to my taste than I thought it would be, but regardless of that, it was so what it wanted to be, it was so exactly.

It understood what it was. Everyone on the team understood what it was. And like for that reason, even if I'm not gonna love a movie, if I feel like the movie at least delivered on the contract of what it set out to be, I'll at least admire it.

Julie: 100%. Yeah. And I think that it's actually one of the reasons why I wanted to work in the independent film space versus staying in the sort of quote unquote studio system because I've seen.

So many films that are brilliant scripts, brilliant projects, and often when you're working with a studio in their effort to reach as broad of an audience as possible, they end up diluting a lot of the authenticity at the center of the film. And when you dilute the authenticity, it actually.

Makes the film less relatable because you can feel it. The core audience for that movie, if it's, you know, something that's a queer rom-com and you are diluting the authenticity of that at the center, not only are queer people going to rise against it, if you will, especially because us gays are incredibly savage on the internet, but it will then trickle out and other people will feel it.

It doesn't feel. Real. And when something is incredibly authentic, it's relatable no matter who you are. Yeah. You don't have to be of that certain group to have felt. The authenticity at the center of it.

Jeff: Yeah. You end up making a movie for no one and it's like-

Julie: Exactly.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. It's, I think that's really important for our emerging writers to hear.

And I will say, I feel like the studio system's feeling the consequences of these, like nothing burger movies they're making.

Julie: Yeah. You know, and I think if you've been doing something one way for a really long time, it just starts to feel stale. It's why working with rising filmmakers is so important because.

Those people are going to bring an interesting new perspective on a genre that we've always loved. I mean, if you're gonna have a rom-com made from the same guys making rom-coms since the nineties, they're just gonna feel like rom-coms that were made in 2001 that are like whatever. But if you have people making new things, I mean it's not necessarily a romcom, but you know, I think Celine Song’s film –

Jeff: Materialists? Is that what you're –

Julie: No. Past Lives. Objectively, I guess the Materialists is supposed to be a romcom, but Past Lives is really what I was thinking about. Because it was just this beautiful new perspective and it resonated so strongly with people.

You don't have to be someone who moved from a foreign country to America and has lost love to understand the feeling and the relatability of having a first love that is no longer. That's something that most people have experienced, well, maybe not most people, but a lot of them.

Jeff: But even if they hadn't, when a movie is so specific that, you know, the filmmakers being vulnerable to tell their truth, it like opens up the hearts of whoever's watching it to connect in a different way. Even if it's not the exact experience, it'll soften them and they'll connect to it in the way that they need to personally connect with it.

Julie: Absolutely. That is, I think that's. The perfect way to say it, and it's why a lot of stuff is working. I mean, even on the television side, right? I mean, America never would've made baby reindeer.

Jeff: Yeah, you're right.

Julie: That never would've happened. That is. The British are just absolutely nailing it. I mean, Adolescence, Baby Reindeer, these are things that are just Fleabag. Fleabag. Absolutely.

Jeff: Michaela Coel. What was that? I May Destroy You. Yeah, Michaela. I may. They're better than us, let's be honest.

Julie: Yeah, I think that there's just a level of risk taking that afraid of, and you know, oi is a good example of something that doesn't fit the algorithm right. When we talk about what. Both theatrical distributors, but especially streamers are looking for, they have such a specific algorithm and they are so afraid to leave the algorithm, and that leads often to things that feel really repetitive and.

Sometimes you try to do something that's super different and incredibly original and maybe it doesn't pan out. There's also scenarios where they'll just drop something on a platform. I mean, Chloe Domont’s film Fair Play, so brilliant. It was the talk of Sundance 2023. They made that movie for $10 million, maybe.

It sold for $20 million. It was the biggest sale, first sale at that Sundance. Netflix bought it. They put it in theaters for like a week. No promotion and then they just dropped it on Netflix. Yeah. And there's so much on Netflix, it's so hard for things to break through and unless Netflix is deciding to put something on the banner at the top and be like, this is what you absolutely have to watch this week.

People don't know. Most people I know have not seen that movie and it is brilliant. And she did something incredibly original within a genre that. We know sort of that fatal attraction genre, but really modernizing it and updating it for today. And it's just so unfortunate to see that happen. But it also happens in theatrical.

If people don't know your movie exists, they're not gonna know to see it. And right now we basically need things. To go viral on TikTok for anybody to know it exists. And for that to happen, you basically need a 24 neon giving you this theatrical campaign. Hitting it so hard on streaming. I mean, we were talking about weapons.

Weapons. That campaign is brilliant. Yeah. And they've been working on it for months and they went. Really hard on events and activations and streaming and just had it out there. And when something is, doesn't have enough time for the promotion and isn't getting enough traction on social despite how incredible the project is or how psychic see it as, and how much it should be going viral on social.

It's just people aren't going to know. They're just not, and that's. It's a bummer 'cause that's really what's happening right now. In so much of theatrical and streaming distribution.

Jeff: Yeah. Yes. I think that's very well said. I love this conversation with Julie, feeling very encouraged. I love the way she talked about producers being the ones to defend the ideas and themes that passionate filmmakers are expressing in their work, and even in a tough time for our business.

It feels good knowing that there are producers like Julie who are really. Advocating for strong personal writing on the page. Believe it or not, Julie, Jonathan and I actually talked for about another 30 minutes a lot about imposter syndrome. I found it to be an incredibly vulnerable and valuable conversation, particularly for some of the feelings that I've been dealing with over the last year.

But it's kind of a more evergreen conversation, so we're actually gonna save it and release it later on this year, so you can stay tuned for that. But in the meantime, I'd really encourage you to go see Oh, Hi!. We talked a little bit about it on the show, but like Jonathan mentioned, it's still playing in New York and LA and for anyone listening, it's available on VOD.

It's a really charming, feel-good, and ultimately really funny look at modern love. And Molly Gordon, I think can do no wrong. Anyone who watches The Bear or saw Theater Camp will agree. I just think she's really exciting and this is my first time seeing a Sophie Brooks movie, but I can't wait to see what else she does as well.

So thanks to Julie. Stay tuned for part two at some point later this year.