220 | Writing Horror with the Carved Creative Team

On today's spooktacular episode, we welcome three creatives behind Hulu's new campy horror slasher romp “Carved” - director and co-writer Justin Harding, co-writer Cheryl Meyer, and star Peyton Elizabeth Lee - to talk about horror, and particularly, how to write it. Happy Halloween!

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Lorien: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Lorien McKenna.

Jeff: And I am Producer Jeff. Happy Halloween, everyone.

Lorien: In honor of this very spooky day, I'll be chatting with Justin Harding and Cheryl Meyer, the writers of Carved, a new horror feature that's now available in the stream on Hulu.

Justin, who directed Carved, in addition to co-writing, is a multi award winning filmmaker whose body of work in the horror space includes numerous acclaimed short films that have collectively won over a hundred awards at major festivals worldwide. He's also worked on several TV series, including The Haunted Museum and Urban Legend, both produced by Eli Roth.

Jeff: Cheryl has worked on several family TV dramas, including Amazon Prime's Beyond Black Beauty. She also sold her YA crime pilot, Normal Girls, to Wildbrain. Her dystopian thriller feature, All the Lost Ones, has been acquired by Paramount Plus Canada, and The Last Mark, her crime thriller feature, was honored with the 2021 TIFF Industry Select and landed a home on Super Channel.

Cheryl is thrilled to be an advocate for the community of creatives with disabilities as an early advisor for the Disability Screen Office, And a community advisor for ReelAbility's Accessible Writers Lab.

Lorien: Justin and Cheryl, welcome to the show and happy Halloween.

Justin: Happy Halloween. Thanks for having us.

Lorien: Happy Halloween. Yes. We're super excited to talk to both of you, but before we jump into our conversation with you, we have very special guests joining us for the beginning of our show. The lead actress from the film, Carved, Peyton Elizabeth Lee. Peyton got her start as the star of the Disney channel series, Andy Mac.

And she went on to star in the Disney plus series. series Doogie Kamealoha MD, as well as the Disney plus movie Secret Society of Second Born Royals and Prom Pack, which she also produced. She was nominated for favorite female TV star at the Kids Choice Awards, won Best Young Ensemble in a TV series at the Young Entertainer Awards, and was named to both Variety's Youth Impact Report, and the Hollywood Reporter's Top Stars Under 18.

And if that's not enough, she is also currently enrolled in Columbia University. Peyton, welcome to the show. Oh, thank you so much for having me. So congratulations on Carved. It's a super fun movie.

Peyton: Thank you.

Lorien: And it's Halloween. So happy Halloween. And it's out today. Yeah. So before I get into the actual interview process, I want to tell you about, I'm going to fangirl for a minute.

My daughter and I watched all of Andy Mack, and when she found out that I was talking to you today, she just went ooooh, and she kept texting me about it. She's 12, and she kept texting me about it. She's it's, I think it's the only time she's actually been impressed by what I do. Wow. So thank you.

Peyton: That's high praise. Thank you. I appreciate that. Tell her I say hi.

Lorien: Oh my gosh. Swoon. I will. Her name is Quincy. Oh, that's so cute. Hi, Quincy. Okay. What is your favorite scary movie?

Peyton: Ooh, that's a great question. I think The Sixth Sense is one of my favorite scary movies. Maybe my favorite. I think it's one of those movies that I watched and I was I had just never seen anything like it, and I think it opened me up to a whole new form of making a movie with that kind of big twist at the end that then I went down this rabbit hole of it with, Fight Club and Shutter Island and all of that.

Lorien: How old were you when you watched it?

Peyton: Ooh probably 14, maybe 15.

Lorien: It was a sort of pivotal coming of age moment.

Peyton: Yeah. Oh, for sure. It was when I was starting to really, I think, appreciate films in a different way. I think my dad showed it to me and I, it was just so brilliant.

Lorien: How many times did you rewatch it to find all the clues and everything?

Peyton: I mean, like at least three. It's one of those movies I don't love to rewatch movies because I feel like you start to wear them out, and especially movies that I love, like I want to be able to go back and watch them and not have it be like, I remember every single little thing.

But that was one that was definitely hard to not just immediately start it back over and watch it again.

Lorien: It's such an amazing movie and such a gut punch at the end, like you're like, wait, what?

Peyton: Yeah, it's crazy. And then you're like, no, that couldn't be because of this. And then you go back and watch that and you're like, oh no it, that's exactly what it is.

Lorien: It's so satisfying to be surprised like that. It's so great. So how did you become involved in Carved?

Peyton: Yeah, so I got sent the Carved script and I read it and I thought it was fun and crazy and confusing and I wasn't sure what was going on and then I got on the zoom with Justin and he was really like the big selling point for me.

He was so passionate about it. And while the script left me with a lot of questions, like he had so many answers, he had a very clear vision for what he wanted to make. He had so many reference films that kind of filled in the kind of blurry areas. And I think just getting to talk to him and really hear his passion and excitement and, just love of the genre and particularly love of this story in this film that was what really excited me, I think you, you read good scripts once in a while, but then I feel like it really is the people that are making it that make me at least want to be a part of it because you can't compensate for that kind of passion if it's not there, and so knowing it was there so strongly at the top, that just kind of, into everything else and the team that gets put together.

And so I was just really excited to be a part of it from then on.

Lorien: These are the people that you have to spend time with on the movie. It's not just part of the project. It really is like the whole experience.

Peyton: Yeah, absolutely. And the making of a movie is such a, such a. specific thing because if everyone isn't completely involved and invested and caring like you can tell when you watch it You know in the quality of it and just in the characters in how much thought is put into it Like you really feel that on screen.

So I think it was really important to me that was the feeling, because I think this was a very ambitious project that had a lot of things that could go wrong and so it was really important that everyone that was a part of it really cared a lot and were willing to do what needed to be done.

Lorien: Awesome. So I have a question for you as an actor. What were you reacting to? That had to be filled, like the special effect is there, but what was the stand in that you were reacting to for the pumpkin? Like physically, what were you looking at?

Peyton: So we had a real pumpkin that is the pumpkin that's in a lot of the movie. Her name was Shakira. Shakira the Shaker Pumpkin. And that actually helped a lot because sometimes when you're, like, working with things that are, gonna be VFX or CGI or whatever you are working with a piece of tape on a c stand. And so the fact that it was like there was something really there for us to start to understand what it was going to look like was super helpful. But yeah, it was super fun every time Shakira came out to play.

Lorien: I feel like Bruce the shark, Shakira the pumpkin, it's icon status here, right?

Peyton: Hey, that's what we're shooting for.

Lorien: Jonathan Hurwitz, one of our producers has a question. For you.

Jonathan: Yes. Hi.

Peyton: Hi.

Jonathan: I had the pleasure of writing for your first show, Andy Mack.

Peyton: I know. So full circle.

Jonathan: I know. It feels like truly a lifetime ago. It's wild.

Peyton: It does. I know. I still miss it.

Jonathan: Ugh, me too. It was the first show that I ever wrote on and I remember being in the room and. It was always so fun to think of stories for you, specifically in writing for you, because you could play, you played comedy really well, but you also could do the emotion really well too.

And so Carved is obviously very different from Andy Mack, but it still has that humor and heart in there too. So I'm just, I'm curious how you found a balance between the like camp and fun while also maintaining that real sense of grounded, grounded emotion.

Peyton: Yeah, for sure. I think that was one of the big kinds of tonal struggles we were going back and forth on throughout the whole process. And I think, because we have this awesome ensemble cast where we have a lot of big funny personalities that were just being hilarious the whole time, I felt like It was more my job to try to ground the thing in some sense of reality. And because I had so many amazing people around me who were, like, playing different jokes and beats it gave me the ability to focus more on making the thing feel real.

And I mean, I think, That's the, it sounds hilarious to be like, yeah, we were trying to make the killer pumpkin movie feel real or grounded in any way. But I think no matter the kind of movie you're doing, the biggest thing you have to do is you have to get people to care about it.

If they don't care about the characters, if they're not buying into the story to some extent, it doesn't matter if it's funny or scary or whatever people just don't care. And to get people to care it has to feel like something that could exist in some sort of plausible, somewhat reality, and so I think that was really my focus in making this, was wanting it to be funny and silly and campy and fun, but then also, allowing it to sit in some sort of heightened reality where people are actually buying into the stakes of it.

Jonathan: I mean, as somebody who has a sibling that's sort of what I think I was tapping into is I felt your characters Like devotion to protecting like your little brother.

And I know you have siblings too. So is that something that you felt like you were drawing on?

Peyton: Absolutely. I have a little brother and I have an older sister, so I'm right in the middle, but like that little brother dynamic, I mean, my little brother is Less of a baby brother and more of a teenage boy who lives in our house, but Definitely I remember when he was a baby.

I remember when he was little and feeling that protectiveness towards him and still feeling it now in different ways. I think, definitely, finding pieces of Kira, whether it be her relationship with her little brother or this, Fresh heartbreak from her first love or, struggling with family trauma, all of these things like trying to find the very human universally relatable pieces to Kira and latching on to those things and trying to build them out emotionally. Again, so we have this kind of relatable emotional arc through this kind of crazy story.

Lorien: Thematically, your character's journey, for me, was very much about sticking with something that felt safe and holding on to that in a world of chaos and, disaster and holding on to this first love and this is the plan, and then ultimately letting go of that and moving into an unknown world, and I wonder, For you personally, just looking at your career, starting out as like a kid, and then moving through these more and more mature projects if that, for me, I was like, Oh, this resonates for me watching her as a performer. I wonder if that was part of your journey and connection to the project as well.

Peyton: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I've definitely experienced it. And I think lots of people have that. Life starts changing and moving, whether it's at a rapid rate because of some big event or work, or school, or whatever, or just gradually growing up as a human being, things start changing, and those kind of periods of change are exciting and amazing, and that's what makes life, but it's also times where you're like, oh my gosh I have no stability, and so you do Try to hang on to things that feel safe that feel comfortable that make you feel taking care of and I think i've definitely done that Luckily, I have a great family and great friends and so through periods of change in my life Like i've been able to have that kind of foundation to come back to so you're not just floating in space wondering what's going on?

And Kira's been through so much, and so she has less of that foundation, or that foundation is just, is smaller, and only in a few people, and so when a big chunk of that breaks off it everything implodes emotionally, and so I think that's definitely something that I understand to a certain extent, and was definitely trying to Kind of, consider throughout the whole thing, right?

Because there's this pumpkin. So it's like the breakup isn't top of mind when you're fighting for your life. But then it's also like that doesn't just go away because other things are happening. And so playing with those dynamics and trying to find a somewhat realistic kind of middle ground and times to play with all of those different nuances was part of the fun of making this for me, for sure.

Lorien: Yeah, I think that's the fun like the success piece of a scary movie or a funny scary movie like carved is that yes it is real life and death stakes but that doesn't diminish the actual relationship life and death stakes that are going on with the characters and with the you know those growth opportunities so I think it was really fun and really well done and I loved how straight you played it how like you were really spent during there's I don't want to spoil anything, but watch the movie, but there's the early in the film.

There's the scene with the reporters interviewing the cast, and there's a close up on you and you realize that he's leaving. And it was just so real. I was like, Oh my God, but I was just so moved by what Jonathan said about your ability to play like happy. Sweet, fun, and then Oh my God, I just got gutted.

I was really impressed. So well done. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Thank you. So I know we don't have much time. I think we're done, but I have one more question. When you read a script, what advice do you have for writers to have that, to give you that juicy part? We talk a lot about characters having to have a want.

There has to be a plot, right? Or else an actor doesn't want to just play the same beat over and over. So what are you looking for when you read?

Peyton: Yeah, I mean, I think I would say what I'm looking for when I read is just, this probably sounds very unhelpful, but like fleshed out, three dimensional characters, I think I tend to read scripts where the character is like, Okay.

The nerd, or the popular girl, or she's sad, or she, you know what I mean, or she's silly, in the class clout, or whatever. And I think the scripts I really gravitate towards are the ones where you think it's one thing, and then, like all human beings, there are layers to that, and things that are complicated, and things that kind of contradict other things about, imperfect, full three dimensional human beings where you really have a lot to creatively consider and sink your teeth into and develop I think is definitely something that excites me in a script.

Lorien: That's super easy. So we'll, I'll just do that.

Peyton: So yeah, so just do that and you should be super successful.

Lorien: It's a joke I always make on the show where we hear something really smart and I'm like, easy.

Peyton: Yeah, that's all you have to do. It's Hollywood. Easy. And you'll win an Oscar, probably.

Lorien: Maybe two. Be there.

Peyton: Yeah. So we'll reconvene at the Oscars after you guys take that advice.

Lorien: Great, I'm gonna work on my dress and what shoes I'm gonna wear. Cool. That's what you gotta figure out now. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom with us and your joy.

Peyton: Thank you so much for having me.

I'm so excited to listen to the podcast and hear what you guys say. Cheryl and Justin.

Lorien: Justin and Cheryl, welcome to the show and happy Halloween. Congratulations on Carved, which is on Hulu today. It's a very fun movie. Everybody should watch it.

Justin: Yes, thank you very much. It's on Hulu and also on Disney Plus all over the world.

Lorien: Oh because they're the same.

Justin: Yeah, because Hulu's only in the U.

S., so Cheryl and I are actually in Toronto, Canada. Up here, we have it on Disney and it's on Disney in 105 countries outside of the U. S.

Lorien: Wow. Oh my gosh. So it is an international phenomenon already.

Justin: It's out there in 40 languages. So I get to listen to all the feedback in many different languages.

Lorien: Is it subtitled or are they doing a voiceover in other languages?

Justin: I think it's, I think it's just subtitled. I'm not sure if they did voices actually, if they did that. That's a good question. I think it's just subtitles.

Lorien: That's a whole career some directors have. Did you know that? I didn't. Like they go and direct.

I think that's so fun. That's an awesome thing.

Justin: Actually good because you, because those performances when they're dubbed over can ruin the script or make it feel weird or change the tone. This is a this movie is a tonal roller coaster and it's such a delicate balance that it would make sense to have a director overseeing that.

Lorien: I would like to know from each of you, what is the first scary movie that you saw? So mine was Carrie when I was six years old at the drive in. My dad and his girlfriend thought it was okay. So it was a little scary movie plus a little trauma mixed in. Yeah, so Carrie was the first scary movie I saw.

So what was the first scary movie you guys saw?

Cheryl: I guess this will be a matter of opinion, but for me, it was Jurassic Park, which is also my favorite movie of all time. I think I was a little too young when my mom took me to the theater because, kids like dinosaurs and they really love it.

When people get eaten by dinosaurs and dinosaurs can open doors and chase children around. So I had nightmares about that movie for two weeks of raptors just being in my room. And I loved it and I never forgot it. And it inspired me to make monster movies later in life.

Lorien: That's awesome. Justin, what about you? What's the first scary movie you saw? Now I said scary, not horror for this very reason.

Justin: I can't remember which one it was first, but there's two that I can't remember which one was first, but they both had the equally powerful impact on me. And it was Nightmare on Elm Street, the first one, and Aliens, the James Cameron Aliens.

I think both of them just blew my mind. Aliens, I could not believe what I was watching. It just completely changed my life. Nightmare on Elm Street ruined me. I couldn't sleep. And it scared me off of horror films for many years. But those two to this day, I think that Freddy Krueger and the Alien Queen are the two greatest monsters. in the history of cinema.

Lorien: I still have Freddy Krueger nightmares about there's a scene in a bathroom where a kid is like turning on the faucet and the faucets turn into Freddy Krueger's hands.

Justin: That's the third one. Yeah.

Lorien: Yeah. That was a hard pass for me at that point. I was like no. Because at that point in my life, I thought I loved scary movies.

But I realized I did not. And I took a break for quite a while. So I'm sort of re-entering it right now.

Justin: But that was so such inventive in camera effects, and that, that was such great use of reverse photography those faucets that you're talking about where they come out and they turn into claws and they grab her and they slice her wrists at the very beginning that those types of movies and that type of approach to filmmaking was heavily influential on carb.

Lorien: Really? Oh, that's awesome to hear. So what is yours? I don't know if I should say horror. I have such a hard time when I watch horror movies. I, people have such different definitions of that. And then there's types of horror. So I just say scary. But my favorite scary movies are like, Shaun of the Dead and Heathers.

And I don't know if those are considered scary or horror, but they're pivotal for me in terms of my taste and my, what I think is scary and funny. What about you?

Justin: Shaun of the Dead definitely is a horror comedy for sure. So that's under the umbrella of horror, I would say. For me, I grew up loving The Shining like throughout high school.

To me, that was actually my favorite movie. The Shining is my favorite horror film, I would say where Evil Dead 2 is my favorite comedy horror or more, more bonkers sort of horror. And then in recent years, I love The Babadook by Jennifer Kent. So good. Such an incredible, such an amazing inventive film. And The Substance more recently, I just, it just, that blew my mind.

Lorien: Okay, so you are deep into horror.

Justin: I just love, I love the genre because I love filmmaking and I love the creative output of that genre and I love I love creating monsters and creatures and I just, As a filmmaker, I love the genre, and as a viewer, I just, I love so many genres, and I love all film, but I'm very passionate about the horror genre from a filmmaking standpoint, for sure.

Lorien: Cheryl, as a writer, do you also love horror as much as Justin does? Or, are you into it? Do you have a favorite horror genre? Horror movies other than Jurassic Park.

Cheryl: Yes, so horror as a viewer is definitely my number one favorite type of, I love to run for your life across the board so that it can be like action or thriller.

But horror is almost always the best. That in some regard and The Conjuring to me is one of the scariest horror movies I've ever watched and I will re-watch it and I will pause it at points and be like, okay, I need a re-watcher. But I love to be scared of a viewing experience and so I have to say The Conjuring is still taking the top for me in terms of scariest one I've ever seen and probably my favorite.

Lorien: Wow. So how did the two of you connect to work on this movie? How did you get the idea? Where did it come from?

Justin: The idea for this movie came from .We did a short film. I did a short film six years ago for Hulu. That was part of a Halloween special, the Huluween Film Festival. I have been doing multiple short films.

There's some of the posters behind me. I had short films in film festivals all over. And I got a, just through having short films out in the world I got a random phone call from someone saying that they were like a curator working in the festival world. They were looking for short Halloween ideas to pitch to Hulu as part of this event, like Halloween special.

And I was like, Oh, I had this idea of a sentient pumpkin that carved humans that was just lingering. And I pitched it very quickly and that led to me going down to pitch it formally, which led to a green light of this film that was one of eight projects, part of this film festival competition.

And then that went on Hulu. In 2018 and then we won that contest and that just was the start of this that evolved into a development deal and turning into a feature and part of that development process was working at the screenplay and trying to figure out what type of story we want to tell and what in what time period we want to tell it in.

And somewhere along the journey, I realized I was just Cheryl, I had known Cheryl for many years from working in the Canadian television industry, and Cheryl was very active as a writer and had just recently won, you won something in Cannes. I can't remember what it was. What was that Cheryl?

Cheryl: I had a horror film script that was selected for the W scripted Cannes screenplay list. And that's what you saw as a press release. And then I think that's why you called me. Although we also knew each other.

I always knew you as a writer, but then seeing that I was just in the, I was sort of in the weeds of developing this.

And I was like, I really want to have a collaborator on this. I really want to have a female voice in the room. Because we have, just because of who the characters are and the relationships and I have someone who can Round this out, because the tone of this movie is very tricky.

This is like a bonkers B movie. This is a slasher monster hybrid. It's a unique project. And I wanted someone creative to work with. And then, I sent Cheryl this outline I had and said, what do you think of this project? And Cheryl came back and pitched a few ideas that just were perfect in my mind.

And that's how our collaboration began. So then Cheryl and I took that treatment, build it into a proper outline. And then from that, When did the screenplay?

Lorien: So what was the process? What were your steps? Like, how long did it take? I'm always so curious about this, right? Because there's the standard.

You get 12 weeks to write a feature.

Justin: Like moving into the actual script part of it?

Lorien: Yes. Yeah. Like you deliver the treatment, the outline.

Justin: It was a four step. Yeah, I think it was four steps. It was like treatment, outline, or no, it was outline, first draft, second draft, polish.

And we had. It was pretty quick. I think we had, do you remember Cheryl? I think it was only a few months. Maybe you remember more than I do.

Cheryl: I mean, because I checked it out, I was curious about how long this took us. And I checked out when you messaged me, which was like the end of May, 2022. And From there, we moved pretty quickly.

I feel like we got an outline within a month and then we were getting, we were waiting for approvals and things like that. That takes time, but it moves fast. There was a giant pause in the middle that we all experienced from the strike but from, let's If you remove that, we started, let's say, June 2022, and then the script was greenlit, I think, January 2024 and Which is fast.

Justin: It was fast, but after years of development, after years of trying different things, that wasn't really working or wasn't really feasible within our means, so there was multiple versions of this that existed that, We were trying different things and then it's, and then once we landed on, okay, setting this in the nineties and creating a story where this creature has actual motivation, where it's got like family, it's got, there's more of it.

Once, once we landed on, on some of those sort of like building blocks, then it became very fast, but it was a lot, there was a long sort of ideation period.

Lorien: Oh, of course. And your short was in 2018.

Justin: 2018.

Lorien: I mean, things move fast until they don't. And then now you have a movie out.

Justin: Yeah, it seems fast, but you know, this idea came to me, the idea of the pumpkin came to me in the late 90s. I mean, it was in my brain for a long time, the image of it. And then the short film was one thing. And then, to evolve into the feature script was six years.

Lorien: So there were so many things in this movie. So I have this complicated relationship with scary horror movies. I saw Carrie, my stepmom used to make me watch 70s vampire movies that were on TV. I was deep into the Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street, and somewhere in my 20s I realized I don't like scary movies. Like I, my boyfriend made me watch Pinhead, like all that, all those like 80s, 90s, really scary movies.

And so I stopped for a while. And then. I've slowly gotten back into it, but I can only watch them with the sound off. Because sound is such a major part of these movies for me. And then I'm like, Oh, I love the witch. And I love, I still can't conjure because I feel like even without sound, I'll be terrified.

But, There are so many things in this movie that I would, that I loved, that I found delightful. The first one where I was like, I was sitting by myself laughing, when the Killer Pumpkin POV started at the pumpkin carving contest. And I was like, Oh my God, this is the best thing I've ever seen. It was so delightful. And I don't know, is it camp? Is that the tone that I'm thinking of?

Justin: It's camp. It's inherently campy for sure.

Lorien: Yeah. But I just was like, I'm going to love this movie. And I just sort of settled in for the ride. Like I stopped asking questions about the nineties and why this also it's okay, I'm in like, you had me at that moment. And then the flute and there are so many. Things I recognize like little moments. So what are the other movies? What movies were you referencing when you were writing and then directing this movie?

Justin: In the pitch deck, I have a page dedicated to the references and it's really Tremors is the number one reference for this movie. It's Tremors, Gremlins, Aliens, The Thing, Evil Dead, Slither, Shaun of the Dead. Little Shop of horrors and obviously and Thanksgiving, which I recently worked on as a second unit director because the kill, these in some ways in this genre, these films can be judged on the kills alone. I mean, they were like, really traditionally speaking, especially with Friday the 13th and these types of movies, you're really just watching it for the kills and we wanted to make something that did that.

But then also on top of that, or underneath that was a character story. That was to bring in other elements from comedies like Booksmart, or like Shaun of the Dead, where there's character involvement, there's relationships that are there. So it's not just a mindless killing.

And as many of those movies do very well. Movies like Terrifier, movies, there is a very big and like audience for that type of thing, which I like as well. But for this, we wanted to make something that was blending these, blending the comedy and the horror in a way that was more accessible and maybe for a new generation of film film goers, to introduce them to this genre, the genre that You know, like when I saw Evil Dead and Army of Darkness as a young person, it completely opened my mind to what a horror movie is, quote unquote, because it was so funny and entertaining,w, Army of Darkness and Evil Dead are almost slapstick.

And at the time, these movies were so creative and I really wanted to put some of that essence into this.

Lorien: So there's one movie reference I noticed that you probably didn't do intentionally, but if you did, perhaps there's a shadow of the pumpkin crawling around and I was like, Oh, it's the carriage from Cinderella.

Justin: That's awesome. No, that wasn't a reference for the spider pumpkin.

Lorien: But it worked for me in terms of her journey, right? She's the opposite of, she's the Cinderella character in terms of stuck in a life and, but it was her of her own making. I don't know. I found it.

Cheryl: She is an orphan.

Lorien: Exactly. And all these little creatures helped support her and everything. So maybe that's just my, I've been Disney'd and that sort of thing. But I, that was fun for me. Let's talk about camp a little bit, which I think is easy for us to throw around as like a tonal word, but what do you, when you're writing it, how do you write it on the page?

Justin: I've never thought about how to tackle camp, so I don't know, Cheryl, if you have a good answer for this, but I just, to, to me I just approach it like it's all based on the character, it's all really character driven, you have this creature that's inherently campy.

So your movie's campy, you're making a pumpkin killer movie. Guess what? It's campy right from the get go. If you try to take it too seriously, if you try to, if you try to take it seriously in tone, it's just, it's going to go in one direction. But I think for us, it was just. The idea was to make something using 90s techniques, which meant we're using a muppet.

This is a foam latex in camera practical effect. That's going to be campy. This is inspired by movies like, like Tremors and Evil Dead, which are campy. So I, to me, it's just, it's inherently that, and then how do you, and then you just write it and focus on the characters. And then their relationships and actually trying to you actually do try to ground it in a reality, if it's like what would happen if this actually happened to you in real life and what would you actually do and to try to be as grounded as possible, but then.

Along the way, working it out, especially once you get actors involved, it becomes more and more, the camp level can inflate or it can deflate depending on so many decisions. But when it comes to writing it for me, it's just taking the campy idea, and focusing on the characters.

And then there's all these funny moments that come out just naturally because of the subject of it.

Cheryl: I also worked a long time in comedy. I spent many years in improv as well as participating in live comedy shows. And I've worked in some comedy writers' rooms. And so there was this element of taking that knowledge of a TV writers room and pitching out all lines and trying to find these characters' voices through the comedic one liners of how ridiculous it is to be killed by a pumpkin.

And get that on the page where it made sense, of course. And then these actors took this and made their own version of it within it, which was wonderful to watch as well.

Lorien: Along those lines, I mentioned sound. How are you writing a scare on the page of a horror movie that if I'm reading it, I'm surprised? I'm getting that when I read it. How do you do that?

Justin: Another good question. I don't know. To me again it's about the, it's about the character. It's like you're creating a visual roadmap, right? So you're it, what exactly is that character seeing? What are we seeing through the character and to try to put the reader into the mind's eye of these characters on the page and and to try to, and to try to build suspense with that.

To me, it's always about trying to build suspense and that's always grounded in characters. That you hopefully like or characters you've developed enough that you care about them or you don't want to see them murdered or killed. So that helps build suspense and tension.

And how do you, and how do you write that? I think it's starting with the character and then yeah, and then working it out in a way where the reader is pulled into it and experiencing it through the character's mind or their eyes.

Cheryl: This script is very interesting. It's written with visuals in mind throughout the whole thing, of course, because you're working with the director and he knows what he wants to see. So a lot of going back and forth of being like, what is visually in this set piece? And then how do we surprise the reader as we're going with, what are we seeing?

And then there's a creek, in other words, just like the creek in the next pages, a knife. The glint of a knife and it was written very much like that. And when I watched the movie, I can see exactly what Justin did and he storyboarded it, the whole thing. It was visual all the way through.

From the script to the end, he knew what he wanted to see. And it was a lot of fun to write it in that way.

Justin: Each kill is described in a very visceral visual way, where what's described in the script is exactly what's on the screen in the detail, and it's about being playful with that, too.

So the reader is reading and going, Oh, my God, we're actually going to see that and then keep it really fun for them. That way.

Lorien: I think that's what I started going for is it Creek, like all capital letters, and then Is it like, bam, smash like really active words that are giving you the feeling of being there rather than there is a slow crack emanating from the stairs.

It's sort of what the script looks like when you're reading it and those words.

Cheryl: Yes, it's very much like that. Yeah, it was. that sort of as if you were in the movie and you were the character and you were, you could hear the creek and you could see some orange move quickly across the barn door, whatever was happening.

And that was, yeah, a lot of that was just in knowing what he, you Could and could not do, when we went to execute this thing, there was a lot of discussions around can we make this happen? And then let's write it out on the page exactly how you want it to be.

Lorien: I love it. That's such a good way to think about it.

Justin: Yeah this story, this is a very small movie, which is what I like about, this is made as a low budget callback to these low budget movies and very handmade, but, so yeah many decisions are based on limitations, too, which is also a great way to spark creativity and then, yeah, on the page, you're right it's about, calling out sounds and what you're looking at in capitals, and keeping the page as sparse as possible, too, to a degree, I mean, I tend to overwrite, I tend to blocks and then it's about reducing it down to just being as sparse as possible. And then so sounds and images pop off in the form of capitals or, sometimes we'll bold it depending.

Lorien: You mentioned keeping the space, the page as sparse as possible. Is that to keep the reader like someone's reading this, obviously, right? And it's a roadmap for you to direct it, obviously.

And when you're writing to direct, it's a little bit different than when you're writing to be read to sell. But. If you're writing to be read, to have someone read your script, and keeping the page as sparse as possible, is that to keep your reader a little off, like not giving them too much, like what is that psychologically that you're doing for your reader to keep it sparse?

Justin: I think like for this type of a movie where you're describing such insane visuals, it can get very wordy, it can get very blocky, so it's just a general thing to reduce it down. Reduce it down to just the bare minimum so that the reader can blast through it, and they can use their imagination to fill in the blanks, because otherwise, to describe this sort of thing, and as the director, I do, I'm very, usually I do want to over describe things because it answers questions down the road with your department heads.

Because then you get to the department, then as the director, you're in these meetings where everyone's asking questions. It's what's in the script, it's all there, it's I tend to put it in to make the process easier, but that's not necessarily ideal for the reader. You want to make it sparse for the reader.

So it's really fun. There should be, I think, I don't know how much we did this because this was done so quickly, but there really should be two versions where you have a shooting draft where the director would go back in and sort of flesh it out for the heads of departments because it's two different things.

One. is for the reader to get immersed in the story. The other one is to actually physically make a movie about a rubber muppet killing people. And those are two different things.

Cheryl: I feel like we definitely did that because there were rewrites just around like location. Like we had to, there were full changes to big scenes and sequences and story pieces based on the location that we got and things that we had to, I mean, this movie is a, it's had its limitations with budget.

We were very lucky to have what we had, but we knew what we were up against. And it's a miracle.

Lorien: So you lived the throwback to the nineties. I get it. Yeah. Cause you were living the nineties B camp movie, right? It was, that's right.

Cheryl: Yes. That's great. And then we wrote to that, so we made sure we squeezed every little drop that we could.

Justin: Yeah. And the way it worked is while we were planning the film and while we were shooting the film, there's constant changes because of all kinds of scenarios logistical scenarios, whether just, almost daily there was changes and Cheryl was there, Cheryl was able to help a, adjust the script when needed to really, like on the fly.

Make, make quick adjustments like the crash of the truck, for example, that was, that went through so many different versions. And at the last minute we changed it to be what it is in the movie. But this movie, yeah. Because this movie was very popular, we went into production and we had a very quick turnaround.

It was, very quick shoot, very challenging shoot in the sense that we're dealing with night shoots with a child.

Lorien: It's all night shoots.

Justin: It's all night shoots and you know our Trevor character played by Wyatt Lindler you know being a 12 year old has to be done by 11 o'clock at night but we don't even start till nine you know because you're doing a night shoot so you have to shoot all of his stuff as coverage with you to light every shot from every angle and then you have to release him and then go back and reshoot everything.

And then with the lightning and storms and rain and tornadoes, it just became, it was a very challenging shoot. We had to make adjustments quickly on the fly. And a big part of that was the script writing and adjusting the script on the fly, which Cheryl was. Absolutely essential in that department.

Lorien: Yay, writers on set.

Cheryl: Yes I think it's, you can do it, it's worth it. Saves a lot of heartache and problems.

Lorien: I have a question about how you maintain an active character in a horror movie where you are Being attacked by something. So it is reactive. But how are you maintaining character drive in terms of you can react, but then you have to respond and push the action forward.

So it's not just being attacked by the pumpkin and being driven around so that the pumpkin is the main character. It's a tricky balance. We get asked this on the show. Who is the main character in a thing like that? So how do you, how are you thinking about your main character? Maintaining her narrative drive in this film.

Justin: I think go ahead. Cheryl. I think you have something to say here.

Cheryl: Yeah I think the big question was, what does Kira want and need at the beginning of the movie? And then what does she want and need at the end? And, to put that in at the in throughout the movie while they're being attacked by a pumpkin but keeping it clear that what she's finding out is that she is enough and that she is capable and at the beginning feeling like she isn't enough and she needs she needs Cody to, to your point, be her comfort blanket and then realizing just how strong and tough she is and other characters, putting that together.

Also, her relationship with her younger brother, becoming more of, more important in her world of realizing she has these dreams but they would mean nothing without the family that she has left. So keep that in there as you move through the night of terror.

Lorien: Yeah, I thought, yeah, I didn't ever lose track of what she was trying to do, right?

Protect her brother, and then I love that moment when the one character's what are you doing? And she's directing. And I was like, yes. There we go. I love it.

Justin: Yeah. Because this movie is very much, the plot of this movie is very much a pumpkin springs to life and starts to take revenge.

But the character story. In our minds, it's very much about Kira breaking away from a codependent relationship. And so you have these sort of dual stories going along. One is just a story of survival, trying to not be murdered or carved by this pumpkin. And the other one is her realizing through a series of decision making in the face of conflict, that she doesn't actually need to rely on this person.

Which she, at the beginning, does think she needs to rely on. She's an orphan and she, he's like a father figure, a parental sort of figure. To the brother and so throughout the journey, she's making a lot of creative choices that are helping them, get out and then obviously things go awry, for various reasons, but by the end, she realizes, she doesn't really need to rely on this person.

He's not a bad guy. She doesn't hate him. She just knows now she can. She doesn't need to rely on him,

Lorien: It's almost like she was creating a narrative where he was something That he wasn't, I don't know, for me it felt like she had created this version of him that wasn't actually him, that sort of young love, first love, or sort of more in love with the idea of being with somebody, I don't know, maybe I just put my hope into that.

Justin: That's exactly it, and being dependent on that person. Being dependent and clinging to something that you don't actually need to be a fully formed, fully realized person. And he's not. He's not the type of character that's going to protect her and be the best person for her. He's an actor that should go off and pursue his opportunity.

These are just young people,ow, Kira is 20 years old. Like they're very young and she doesn't need to cling to this person. He's not the savior. She has everything within herself.

Lorien: Which is something I really appreciated about this movie in terms of a modern camp horror movie is that it didn't have that super hypersexuality that a lot of these movies that we've referenced have, like in the 80s and the 90s. That there is no big sex scene, right? Or that there is no moral message of kids who have sex get killed. It felt like a movie I could watch with my 12 year old. And that the end is about a woman who finds her. Her center on her own rather than ending up in a couple. There's nothing wrong with being in a couple, obviously, but they shouldn't have been together and she realized it, right?

She had to be on her own. They can be friends. So I appreciated that too, in terms of it being with more family can't be. And the murders are so grotesque, but so over the top that it's not something my kid is gonna have a nightmare about, I don't think.

Justin: It's on the edge, I think it's on the edge, which is where I like it to be, because it is super campy, but it is sort of cartoonish. The gore is very cartoonish. I mean, it's designed to be funny and scary at the same time, which is just going to be campy. And so I think young kids, maybe it's too much for younger kids, but my son's nine. He watches it, no problem. But he also watched all the visual effects get made, but I think kids who are like 12, 11, 12, it'll be fine.

Lorien: Yeah, my daughter was scared on Wednesday. I had to make up a whole story about how the monster is an actress and she's not very good. And, we gave her a name and what costume she usually wears, so that she could make sure it was made in her mind, so I think with this, I think she can handle it.

So she's very young in her movie taste. Oh, but I think she can handle it. I'll have her watch it. I'll let you know what happens.

Justin: Yeah, I mean, again, it's a throwback to like Army of Darkness or Evil Dead where it's there is gore but it is cartoonish in some ways and it is light that's and that's where the that's where the delicate balance of tone comes into play where trying to get that right is just very tricky but that's what carved is it's a throwback to those movies and certain kids will absolutely love it. I love this and this will introduce them to a world they never even knew existed.

Lorien: Then we all need to watch Attack of the Killer Tomatoes.

Justin: Yeah.

Lorien: I mean, I just And Little Shop of Horrors. And Little Shop of Horrors and, let's just sink into it. It's Halloween, right now.

Cheryl: Plants get their revenge.

Lorien: Totally. Okay, so I think we have time to ask the last three questions we ask on the show, which is what gives you the most joy when it comes to your writing, or your directing, your career, your creative endeavors?

Justin: For me, there's nothing, there's no greater joy than writing the end when you're writing a screenplay when it's done and you've actually, you just write those two words and you sit back and oh, it exists now.

And now, to me, that's the first draft, finishing that first draft is just like a drug or something. You, it's so exciting because now the real fun work can begin by rewriting it. To me, just getting that first draft out is a real challenge. It's a crazy difficult push and then the rewriting is just a joy.

So to me, that's the, that's my happy spot because getting there is not always so happy. Getting to that first draft, getting it out on the page can be extremely difficult and it can take a very long time. So that's, for me, writing, I just love finishing that first draft.

Cheryl: I have two answers because it just depends on whether I'm writing on spec or if I'm writing on someone else's project.

And if I'm writing on spec, it's when I get somebody else's buy-in to move the project forward, because I love it and to have somebody else love it and know that we're going to collaborate, I just get a lot of joy from that. And then second, if I'm writing on someone else's project, when I find my way into it.

When I'm like, Oh, I see, like with this movie, it was very much like I was a teenage girl who had dreams and I had boyfriends in high school that I was, maybe we weren't right for each other. All of that was so much fun to find. And then work through my issues, I suppose, through characters.

Lorien: No, I mean, that's I mean, that's a big part of why we write, right? That's, we're trying to find ourselves in the project in some way, maybe not literally, but that feeling of it. That's awesome. All right, Jonathan, what's the next question?

Jonathan: I get to ask the fun one. What pisses you off about your creative endeavors?

Justin: Oh boy.

Lorien: I think that's just the answer right there.

Justin: Do we have another hour to what pisses us off about our creative endeavors in general? It's very challenging to make films and from my perspective, the most challenging or most sort of frustrating part of it is is trying to write and direct and put out a film is it's like giving birth, you're creating this thing that goes out into the world and it requires so much energy and it's such a, it's such a, it's such a task to get it out and then, Every time I finish a project, you just start all over again.

It's you just starting back at the very beginning. It's like you climb a mountain and then at the end of the mountain, you're just back at the base of it and you look back up and you're like, Oh my God, I got to climb this thing again. And the only thing that excites you to start that process of climbing again, is the spark of a new idea, the, and then the, and then this ideation process begins for me, where it's just you're looking for that spark of creativity.

That's going to inspire you to climb that mountain again. And so for me, it's like finishing something and then waiting for that next spark or and making sure it's something that you truly love because it's going to take a year or two or three or six to get up that mountain again.

Cheryl: Yeah, that.

Lorien: Cheryl, what's your answer?

Cheryl: I actually agree with that. I was sitting here trying to think and I, Every single time I move into something is done, I get this weird rage, and it makes sense. And I'm always analyzing it and being like, why am I so angry? And it's because you should be joyous about it finally being over.

But it is that. It's You did it. You did the goal. And now you've got to move that goal post again. And that feels I don't know. There's something that's just really irritating.

Lorien: In high school when you pick a fight with all your friends senior year, so you can break up with them and go off to college, right? It's like you're breaking up with your project.

Justin: So this project's done and it's going to be out there and people will enjoy it, which is great.

I think it's cool. It'll be out there for Halloween. People can love it. But the only thing that's going to generate fun new opportunities is something new and different and that's different. You have to break up with it. Emotionally, you have to let it go and move on to something else.

Otherwise, you're just clinging to something,

Lorien: And this is something I really want to tell you. everyone, including myself, which is when you finish a project, break up with it, and it's done. Stop rewriting it. Whether you're putting it in a drawer, or you're using it as an exercise in a certain level of craft, or some kind of emotional digging into it, continuing to rewrite on 15 projects is not the way to move your craft forward, or your career forward, or mental health.

When you're done, break up with it. It's okay. You can move on.

Justin: You have to abandon it. You have to let it go, and then you have to move on. But then you also have to understand that's just all part of the process. And you have to love that process. You have to love the descent down the mountain, back to the base.

Okay, now there's a world of new opportunities. And then you have to love that and the climb it's difficult then you get to the top and it's like the premiere and everything's great this movie exists and like now it's part of the world and then you back down you have to just embrace that as the process and love that otherwise you'll never do another climb.

Jeff: It's very well said. It's so funny, Cheryl, when you talk about the inordinate rage that suddenly bubbles up. I feel that too, especially when you just finish a big thing and then someone immediately says, so what else? What's next? And you're like, I just made a movie. It gives me a day. The last question we ask is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self what advice would you give to that version of you?

Justin: Oh, I know what I would say. I, and I'm happy that I did this, but this is the advice I, this is the advice I would give. It's going to be terrible, and that's okay. You have to suck before you get good. You're never going to be good out of the gates. You're going to be terrible, and you have to just embrace that, and you have to do a ton of bad things.

And they'll slowly get better, and they only get better through experience. Nothing happens overnight, and it's okay. Embrace the suck.

Jeff: Embrace the suck.

Justin: I love that. Be terrible and fail often. And then eventually one thing will be good enough to actually be proud of and then that will lead to the next thing.

And your confidence grows slowly. Most people will try something, fail and give up, and you get frustrated. You're like that didn't work, so I'm terrible. But no, everyone's, you look at any great filmmaker and look at the early work and it's oh yeah. I mean, they just didn't get thrown from the saddle creatively.

Jeff: That's really wise.

Lorien: Okay, I have a follow up question to that though which is, okay, embrace the suck, you're gonna be terrible, so I've written something, it's terrible. My, my responses are, I suck, this sucks, writing sucks I have to keep rewriting this forever. How do I embrace the suck so that I can stay on the horse and keep going? That is the advice I think I need to hear and I think everyone needs to hear. Tell us the secret.

Justin: To me, the secret is don't expect it to be great. Like why do you expect that first thing you do to be great? That's so arrogant. Like not saying to you, but to, to the young person,

Lorien: I am very arrogant, which is probably something you've picked up on. I really am.

Justin: No, I think I think for a young person and for young me, it's when I started making movies in high school, when I was 17, I made two feature length movies that were complete rip offs of Tarantino movies. And I made a whole movie that was a whole rip off of Requiem for a Dream.

Just so divisive and so terrible. At the time, I was like, I am the next Spielberg. So arrogant. But then, look at it, a couple, a year go by and you look at it and you think, oh my god, this is so embarrassing. I can't show this to anybody. It's just going to be terrible. Don't expect it to be so good.

When you finish your projects, don't expect everyone to love it. Don't expect it to be the best thing. Just expect it to be what it is. And then Take what you learn from that and move on to the next thing and just keep going. I mean, it's just about staying in there and not giving up. As soon as you give up it's over.

But if you don't give up, it's never over. So don't just don't have any expectations. Except to embrace the process and learn from it.

Lorien: So easy. Let's do that.

Justin: It's extremely difficult, but that's what filmmaking is.

Lorien: Yes, absolutely. Cheryl, what about you?

Cheryl: I was thinking, so I grew up playing sports and we sucked a lot.

And So sucking and like getting and losing is something I got really used to and I realized like you only get the wins by doing a lot of work and practice and training and all these kinds of things. And still even you're up against other competitors that are doing the same thing. So I don't know, I always had that in my, Head.

The thing I would have done was tell myself to go all in right away. I spend a lot of time meandering around. I think I would have wanted to go, I didn't even go to film school. I did all of this stuff in the periphery. I went in, and went on sets, and worked in production, and I went to school for business, and I just didn't, I didn't think there was a way forward, and I wish I went to screenwriting immediately. And yeah, that's probably what I would have told myself is just do it, just move down to LA and do it now, kind of thing.

Lorien: I have that same struggle, but I do imagine if I'd gone from college to LA to come to Hollywood, I'm not sure it would have worked out quite so well for me. Yeah. Because it was like the early 90s.

I would have gotten in trouble. Yeah, I feel the same way.

Justin: I'm very happy.

Lorien: I would have made some choices that would not have done well for me as a screenwriter.

Jeff: And if your role models were those characters from those 80s movies, there wouldn't be a ton of media aspiration.

Lorien: I'm going to just live in Heathers. Here we go. It's happening. Let's do this. Amazing.

Cheryl: But I do. I agree with you. I mean, I agree with you both really profoundly. And I think those pieces of advice for our younger selves though are a hard one based on the wisdom that we've learned by struggling with those things.

Justin: I have one more. I have one more that relates closer to Carve, which is that to young filmmakers out there, to younger me think of short films. When you make a short film, you're not just making a short movie. You're not just making a short film. You're making a passport or a backstage pass to an industry.

And if that five minute, three minute, one minute movie is excellent or creative, or scary. It will open up a door as the backstage pass into an entire international industry, especially in the horror genre. And Carve, the only reason this movie exists is because of a short film version of this that was made in 2016.

And the only reason that exists was because of three or four other short films I had made prior. That were just out there in festivals that I literally was just making for fun with family members, on the weekend, I'd shoot a short film in a day, whip it together, throw it to a film festival, and then, wow, we were like winning awards, and through doing that, it just opened up a world, and to young filmmakers, just think about short films like a passport, it'll take you places.

It's beyond just being a little piece of entertainment. It can be very powerful. If it's good.

Lorien: That's such great advice because I think there's a lot of conversation about should I make a short entry? What is the purpose of a short? And it's, I think it's hard. Like everybody, all the professionals have such a different take on that too.

Make shorts, don't make shorts. Here's where they're valuable. Here's whether or not it's 100, 000 on a short spend 2, 000 on a short, so

Justin: You can make a short with no money. And that it's just an idea. If you look at something like lights out. Which is just made by two people in a room.

It's just a device or an idea that is so inherently scary. And that is delivered within the first 30 seconds of this in the horror genre, making short films can be very effective. And it's, and it doesn't always have to be a proof of concept for a feature. It can be just something that gives you this backstage pass to a world that's going to inspire you.

And inspiration is such a key part to climbing that mountain. And if you, for me, I have to stay inspired because it's so difficult and a big part of that is festivals, meeting people and meeting people that are just like you. And then it reminds you to keep going and short films are just an easy, great way to do that. And it forces you to just make something instead of talking about or thinking about it, make it. Make it short. Make it two minutes. The shorter the better, and then the world will open up.

Lorien: That's great advice. You write your own scripts? For the short. Is that how it works?

Justin: Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, I did both.

I made some that weren't my scripts, but then I started to write my own scripts because I always made one short film that wasn't my script and it did very well. And then I wanted to keep going. So I started writing for my resources. So I wrote films for locations I have for people around me that could act in it for props I had lying around and then that way I could do it with no money.

And so I made multiple shorts with no money, with family members, and with existing materials, very much the Robert Rodriguez School of Filmmaking. That then, it's just, it's low risk. If you don't spend a lot of money, use what you have, be creative with the resources, and see if it works. And what harm can come from that? Maybe discouragement, but remember, you're gonna suck until you get good.

Lorien: For writers, it's a little different. Us writing a short, I don't think, is valuable.

Cheryl: I wrote shorts and then directed them. Directing them, yes. And it's so that I could showcase my writing. I mean, I could have definitely got it, I think maybe someone else did direct one.

But however, in comedy, it's a little challenging. When I was doing mostly comedy. You're, it's a tonal thing. So once I did a bunch on my own and then I did get someone else to direct one and I did like his take, but I was also like, maybe my humor could've been slightly different.

Lorien: Thank you both for coming on the show. It's been a delight. Carved is on Hulu and Disney Plus and internationally and a hundred. And how many?

Justin: 155 regions. 106 countries, 105 outside of the us.

Lorien: So check it out. It's hilarious and scary and amazing. And is that Chris Elliott in it?

Justin: It is.

Lorien: Yep. Okay. And there you go. How could you not love that if Chris Elliott's in it? Thank you both so much.

Cheryl: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Guys, this was great.

Lorien: And if you want to stick around for a little bonus content, Jonathan, Jeff and I are going to talk about our favorite scary movies. And yeah, here we go. All right. In honor of Halloween. Jonathan, what is your favorite scary movie?

Jonathan: I wish the listeners could see my face, but I have a hard time with scary movies. I'm a fragile little butterfly. So these are not movies that I have a lot of experience watching, but I will never ever forget in 1999, I saw Sixth Sense. I was 10 years old, and I still think about the scene - it's a bedroom scene where Misha Barton is on the ground, I believe, throwing up.

Jeff: Yeah.

Jonathan: I still, that scene still terrifies me.

Lorien: Under the tent, with the flashlight, right?

Jonathan: Thank you for reminding me of it. Now it's even clearer in my mind.

Lorien: She sits up and she's got...

Jonathan: That's enough. So that was the first one. And then I really. I mean, I guess there were a few, I was a Disney kid, so there was Hocus Pocus and Halloweentown, but then only a couple years ago my friend dragged me to see Barbarian in theaters, and I said, “You will have to hold my hand this entire movie.”

And not only did he do that, halfway through he whispered in my ear, “Can I have a break?” And he shook his hand out, and then I grabbed it again. It was absolutely terrifying, but I survived.

Lorien: Okay, so you are not a fan of the horror, scary movie genre. I have, that's my takeaway.

Jonathan: Not so much, but I absolutely have a respect for the craft of it and the filmmaking of it all.

Lorien: Would you go see a scary movie during one of the film showings at the Hollywood Cemetery? You know how they do that? You can go see it at the Hollywood Cemetery. Would you? Yes,

Jonathan: I've done that. I saw Showgirls, but I was not focusing on the fact that I was in a cemetery.

Lorien: Ah, I see. So you, okay, I got it. Alright Jeff, what's your favorite scary movie?

Jeff: Are we doing, we're doing our favorite scary movie? Or scariest? Yes! Okay, favorite scary movie? I know it's recent, but I really love Jordan Peele. I feel like he's someone I get really excited for. My hot take, and I sometimes get in trouble for this, is that Us is my favorite Jordan Peele movie.

And I think it's his best of the trifecta so far. The thing I love about Us is not only the, I mean, all of his movies have such incredibly memorable images, obviously Nope had the wavy inflatable arm flailing tube guys and Get Out has, I mean, Get Out's full of it, the first time they go into the sunken place, but Us I feel like has really specific, like the first time you see Lupita Nyong'o with the scissors.

Have you seen Us? Jonathan or Lorien us is one of those movies. It's worth seeing. I know you're so freaked out by this stuff, but Lupita Nyong'o is so good. She's like an Oscar winning actress, which I feel might be enough to convince you. I think

Lorien: Gen Z talk at us about,

Jeff: Oh, she's serving. I did. Yeah. I'm just trying to be cool. Jonathan. I feel like I should. It was that kosher. Is that okay? That I said that. But anyway,

Jonathan: It's acceptable.

Jeff: It's acceptable. Okay.

Jonathan: It's giving an Oscar.

Jeff: It's giving an Oscar. But she is so good. And I think one thing I do love about horror is you actually can get the opportunity for these incredible performances.

You mentioned the sixth sense and like Tony Collette in that movie, it's the same thing. And I think in particular, it actually can sometimes give women more space to be allowed to you. Enter the same range and broadness of emotions and experiences that is sometimes only given to men in some of those movies.

So I actually love horror for that reason, because sometimes you get the chance for quote, prestige. I just saw Florence Pugh in Midsommar, and she's incredible in that movie, so it's fun. I think I would say Us, if I had to pick a movie. Jordan Peele.

Lorien: I also loved The Others a lot. Because I was so scared watching the movie and I kept saying out loud. I hate this. I hate this. I hate this. I hate this. And everyone really appreciated it around me. But then when you got to the twist at the end. I was like, I love this! I love this! I like to re-watch movies like Sixth Sense or the others so that I can see how the storytelling is happening.

I will often, when I go into a scary movie, I will read the whole plot of it beforehand so I know what happens so that I can enjoy watching how it happens because I do not like to be scared. I like to watch the mechanics of it a lot. It's my, that is my denial defense mechanism, Jonathan. Instead of pretending I'm not in a cemetery, I'm pretending I'm watching this for the first time when really I know everything that happened so I can enjoy the experience.

But I am glad for Sixth Sense, I went in not knowing, and the others too, because that sort of sense of delight. But I have to say the scariest movie I've ever seen was Misery. I saw that in the theater, and there was a moment where the woman in front of me, there's a scare in the movie, and everyone in the theater screamed.

This is back before you didn't, there were no like trailers, you didn't understand what the movie was you were going into. Back in the old days! There was a big scare and everyone screamed and the woman in front of me leapt out of her seat and landed on my lap. And we clung to each other for the rest of the sequence.

And then we were all laughing and crying. So that for me, Is had so much impact because it's a scary movie and I was scared but also Just that sense of watching a movie in the theater and the community of it I think that's the fun of seeing a scary movie is seeing it in the theater Yeah, because you have that and we don't have that a lot now when you watch movies at home.

Jonathan: You remind me of one of the panels that I went to just this past weekend at Austin Film Festival. I was listening to the writers of Matilda talk and they were saying that there's something about the experience of seeing a horror movie with friends, with family, that collective experience and surviving it, and walking out knowing that you're okay. And that there is something to be learned in that, right? There's some sort of life lesson in just seeing movies. And knowing that on the other end of it, you're okay. And you walk out and you're okay.

Lorien: It's so funny. I felt that while watching Carved. There's a shot of that.

I mean, I'm spoiler alerting the end where they open up the barn and it's dawn and I have the sense of, I remember what that used to feel like when I'd be up all night with my baby all night and the dark. And then as soon as the sun started to rise, I was like, okay, I can survive. I can do this.

But it was that like, The morning was a sort of fundamental I survived feeling that isn't a lot of horror movies, right? And in that feeling that you're talking about where you can walk out like there's cars driving by and you're not in that crazy world anymore and Freddy Krueger isn't real. Which I think is.

It's why we should go see horror movies in the theaters. Why you should go see horror movies in the theaters. I have a hard time driving around LA during October because those signs are so big and scary around Hollywood.

Jeff: Yeah.

Lorien: Like the smile signs are terrifying too. Too scary.

Jeff: Clown.

Jonathan: No, not for me.

Lorien: That's creepy. Spooky.

Jonathan: Yeah. I'm just reminded of when I transferred to film school as a junior and it was my first first film class and class was over and I opened the door. I was the first one out and I hit somebody - like I opened it really quickly and it was Haley Joel Osment. And he was at NYU when I was there and it was like, quite the jump scare, and so that's a little button on my Sixth Sense story.

Jeff: Did you wonder if you were dead? Did you panic for a minute and wonder if he sees you?

Jonathan: “Am I a ghost?” Ha.

Lorien: Here's my button on Harry being the first movie I ever saw at the drive-in when I was 6 years old, is that in my 20s for Halloween, I went as Carrie at the prom and I had a blonde wig and a white dress and I was covered in blood.

And then when it got too hot and I had to take off the wig, I was Amy Irving at the prom.

Jeff: Nice.

Lorien: So that's my Carrie. Full circle Carrie moment.

Jeff: And perfect for Halloween, Lorien, that's great.

Lorien: And perfect for Halloween, yes. All right, so that was our Carrie movie chat in honor of Halloween 2024.